International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
www.icdsm.org
=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART V
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12 easy
to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10658
1 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. The witness has said
2 he's telling the truth. Now, don't misrepresent the evidence. If
you've
3 got a question, you can ask it.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that we differ because of
5 the translation in your transcript, where it says nephew, and he
says
6 relative or distant cousin, whereas otherwise there is no
difference.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now, to get back to what you were just saying, that you had no
9 intentions of any kind, Globus, the paper, this is a special
edition,
10 November 1, 1999, which says the following:
11 "Tudjman was in Canada, paid a state visit to Canada in 1988 and
12 1989 [As interpreted] -- 1998 and 1999, and dovetailed concepts,
first
13 that Croatia had to be independent and autonomous, and so on and so
14 forth. Third, that the Serbs must be brought to the level of a
national
15 minority, which meant that Croatia should have been more or less
16 ethnically pure. And fourth, if there are Serbs in
Bosnia-Herzegovina to
17 the extent that they cannot all be expelled to Serbia, all that
remains is
18 to carve up Bosnia-Herzegovina, which will ensure pure Croatian
regions
19 and certain restructuring, and this would be joined onto an
ethnically
20 pure Croatian state." Isn't that right, Mr. Mesic?
21 A. I don't know who said that.
22 Q. This is something that can be read in Globus about a plan that
was
23 dovetailed in 1988 and 1989 [As interpreted] in Canada with the
Ustasha
24 émigrés. Do you know at all about that?
25 A. I know nothing about that plan whatsoever.
Page 10659
1 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, on the basis of what you were saying
2 a moment ago, is it true and correct that Tudjman considered the
3 territories that belonged to the 1938 banovina, that it should be
annexed
4 to Croatia? Is that what he thought? Is that right or not? Annexed.
5 A. He said that that was what Milosevic had proposed.
6 Q. Just a minute. I'm speaking about something else now. I don't
7 want to show you the transcript once again, but you can look at the
8 transcript from that same trial where you testified and the number
of the
9 transcript line is 7130. But to avoid having to go into private
session,
10 I just want to jog your memory and tell you that you did speak
about the
11 subject at that particular time.
12 And just as like a moment ago, when you challenged the fact that
13 Tudjman thought that for Croatia the best solution would be the
1938
14 banovina solution, also from your testimony, on page 7129 and 7130,
you
15 said what you said. So tell me now: Is it true that the HDZ party
for
16 you was an extremist nationalistic --
17 MR. NICE: If this line of questioning is to be of any value at
18 all --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.
20 MR. NICE: If this is to be of any value at all, the following
21 thing should happen: The Chamber will have to go into private
session,
22 not because itself necessarily wants to. It simply that this was
23 protected evidence of another Chamber and we don't have rights to
do
24 anything else. Second, the transcript will then have to be examined
25 properly with the witness being in a position to read it and the
Chamber
Page 10660
1 being able to see the full context.
2 JUDGE MAY: At the moment I do not wish to go into private
3 session. It cuts up the cross-examination, makes it very difficult
for
4 everybody else to follow. If there is a significant point here, no
doubt
5 our attention can be drawn to it.
6 MR. NICE: Can I simply also then ask that the accused reminds me,
7 or through the Chamber, of what page he says its was on which the
first
8 reference was to be found. He says 7266 but it doesn't match my page
9 numbering.
10 JUDGE MAY: That's the note we have, 7266.
11 Mr. Milosevic, you will have -- if you want to quote from the
12 transcript, if there's any significance in what was said earlier,
do you
13 want to quote from the transcript, we have to go into private
session.
14 Those are the rules which we have to follow. Now, if we can avoid
doing
15 that, we should do so.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. May, but it is not proper
17 and correct that the public should not be able to see this, that
18 Mr. Mesic, for the most part --
19 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter about that. It is the Rules which
20 we have to follow. This was private session evidence, therefore it
should
21 be dealt with in private session. Now, do you want to ask anything
more
22 about that transcript or not?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll ask him something
24 about -- something else from the transcript in the Dokmanovic
trial, where
25 he wasn't a protected witness.
Page 10661
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is it correct that the HDZ is an extremist nationalistic party
3 which introduced a uniform, unilateral way of thought that captured
people
4 in this way? Is that what you think? And you expressed words to that
5 effect in the Dokmanovic trial, where you were not a protected
witness.
6 The transcript page is 1714 in the testimony against him, and that
is
7 where you made a statement to that effect. You said that that was
your
8 opinion later on, not straight away, not from the very outset. So
when
9 did you come to think that way?
10 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. In order that the witness can deal
11 with this properly, have we got a copy of the transcript, Mr. Nice?
First
12 of all, have we got a copy of the transcript.
13 MR. NICE: Yes.
14 JUDGE MAY: Secondly, can the witness follow it?
15 MR. NICE: It's in English, I'm afraid, so he probably can't
16 follow it, because his English is not probably at the level to deal
with
17 that. But we have a copy for Your Honours if Your Honours haven't
seen
18 it.
19 JUDGE MAY: We, we have it here.
20 Mr. Mesic -- I'll deal with it. Mr. Mesic, what is being put to
21 you in the passage which the accused is asking you about is counsel
says,
22 counsel Mr. Fila, put: "We read that for you the HDZ is an
extremist
23 nationalist party, a hindrance to democracy which introduced a
single way
24 of thinking and which robbed the people. Is that what you really
meant?"
25 And you replied: To look at this in terms of the period -- time
period
Page 10662
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10663
1 involved. "Okay," said witness. "Have you said something like this?"
2 And you replied: "The statement of yours calls for clarification,
namely,
3 when the HDZ was established first, when I was its member, when its
4 programme was elaborated, that was a party that was in favour of a
5 multiparty system for democratisation of free society. When the
balance
6 of political forces in the HDZ changed, I left the HDZ and I became
7 critical of the policy."
8 So counsel then put: That is to say that this statement,
9 obviously referring to his earlier statement, is from the latter
period.
10 And you replied: Yes, from the latter period.
11 Now, you're being asked about the comment that the HDZ was or
12 became an extreme nationalist party, a hindrance to democracy,
introducing
13 a single way of thinking. Can you help us as to whether you said
that,
14 and if you wish to elaborate on it, do.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the HDZ was formed, just like
16 the other parties in Croatia, after the socialist model, I wanted
to have
17 a multiparty system. That's what I was in favour of, of a contest
of
18 opinion of democracy. That's what I wanted. Now, as the threats
were
19 coming from Serbia, threats which the accused himself, via his
rallies,
20 was sending out to Croatia, and they were coming from Vojvodina,
from
21 Serbia, and from Kosovo, the so-called rallies for truth, where it
was
22 stated that the people attending the rallies would go as far as
Ljubljana
23 and that what they would do was to stop over in Zagreb, topple the
24 government there, and carry on by way of passing. I considered that
the
25 HDZ could mobilise in Croatia people for setting up resistance to
that
Page 10664
1 kind of policy on the part of Milosevic, and I joined the HDZ
because I
2 considered that we would be able to protect the interests of the
Republic
3 of Croatia. However, because of the erroneous policy which prevailed
4 later on, or rather, the erroneous policy towards and vis-a-vis
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the wrong model of privatisation which was seen
and
6 the insufficient functioning of the rule of law in the country, the
7 insufficient functioning of the institutions inherent in the rule of
law,
8 I left that policy behind. I stepped down from it, because finally I
9 could still go on being the president of the Sabor parliament. I had
to
10 take part in that policy and politics. But as I did not agree with
the
11 policies, I left the post of president of parliament and joined the
12 opposition.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Mesic, you relinquished the post of president of parliament,
15 as you said a moment ago, only after the first quarter of 1994.
However,
16 the destructive policy of the HDZ, according to you, began already
in
17 March 1991; isn't that so?
18 A. Yes, you're quite right. From your agreement in Karadjordjevo.
19 Q. So you ascribe the destructive policy of the HDZ, you date it to
20 March 1991 and you ascribe it to me. Is that so, Mr. Mesic?
21 A. Well, if you offered the carving up and division of Bosnia, then
22 it is quite true that in part you did take part in the creation of
the
23 wrong kind of policy.
24 Q. Well, as you well know, I never offered a division of Bosnia nor
25 was that our policy. And if you believe I did so, then please show
me one
Page 10665
1 detail which would be illustrative of that?
2 A. Not only the division of Bosnia. It is sufficient that you paid
3 the army in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is sufficient to read the book
written
4 by General Veljko Kadijevic, the Federal Secretary for National
Defence,
5 who speaks precisely of the Virovitica-Karlobag-Karlovac border and
that
6 you stood behind that border, Mr. Accused. That same person
Kadijevic,
7 the Federal Secretary for National Defence, Blagoje Adzic, General
Blagoje
8 Adzic, who was the Chief of Staff of the General Staff of the
Yugoslav
9 army, never came to me. They never, ever came to me in the
Presidency,
10 although I embodied the Supreme Command. They never came to see me.
I
11 insisted -- it was I who insisted on going to see them. They never
came
12 to see me. But if you read Boro Jovic and his books and if you read
13 Mamula and his books, if you read Veljko Kadijevic and his books,
you will
14 see that the agreements were only and exclusively made with the
accused.
15 Q. First of all, that is not correct. I don't know what they say in
16 their books. Mamula retired even before the tensions mounted in
Croatia,
17 and later on in Bosnia. But I assume that you are a passionate
reader of
18 all these various books. But now tell me, please: As you were
referring
19 to the HDZ just now, in 1991 it started acting destructively, so
how can
20 you put up with this for a full three years, staying in that
destructive
21 party for three years as its executive chief, that is, as president
of the
22 Executive Board of the HDZ?
23 A. The point is something else. I was the president of the
executive
24 board of the HDZ. Let me tell you -- just a moment. From the 29th
of
25 December, 1991 until the 7th of August, 1992. This is the period in
which
Page 10666
1 I was at the head of the Executive Board of the HDZ. The point is
that as
2 soon as I saw that the policy was not the policy I had advocated, I
could
3 have relinquished it. That is true. However, in Croatia, I would
have
4 been seen as someone who refused to face the problems Croatia was
facing
5 at that moment, and it would have been thought that I had not done
enough
6 to correct the things that were going wrong in Croatia. I hoped that
with
7 those who thought the same way I did, I could correct the HDZ
policy, that
8 we could win. That is why, with other representatives, or rather,
with 23
9 MPs of the Croatian parliament, I discussed our leaving the HDZ.
This was
10 in 1993. In this way, we could have achieved cohabitation. The
11 opposition would have been the strongest in parliament, and HDZ
would have
12 held executive power. Things would have been different had we
succeeded.
13 But unfortunately, I was not successful. Only 11 MPs followed me,
and we
14 had one vote less than we needed to be the majority in parliament.
15 If you want to make a big change, you need to have a critical mass
16 with you. I thought that 23 MPs in parliament would be sufficient.
We
17 did not succeed, but I went over to the opposition. So I cannot
pinpoint
18 a date and say up to that date the policy was right; after that
date, the
19 policy was wrong. There was a continuity of events in politics.
When
20 enough things happen, one responds. My response was to try to
contribute,
21 in a positive way, to a better climate and a better policy in
Croatia.
22 Q. Very well. That was two years after March 1991, when you say
that
23 the destructive policy of the HDZ started. You say that to start
with the
24 HDZ was a democratic party and so on. In the HDZ platform, which I
assume
25 you contributed to, together with the other leaders of the HDZ, you
say
Page 10667
1 that the programme is based, among other things, on the teachings of
Ante
2 Starcevic. Let me just remind you what Ante Starcevic said -- or
rather,
3 wrote about the Serbs. He called the Serbs -- I don't know if this
can be
4 translated. I wouldn't be able to translate it. He called them
filthy
5 spawn, horrible slaves, people who were fit for the axe, Austrian
dogs,
6 inflated bags?
7 JUDGE MAY: When was this kind of thing written?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ante Starcevic wrote, for example,
9 in 1870, because the witness based his programme on that of Ante
10 Starcevic, who wrote --
11 JUDGE MAY: You're saying that. The witness hasn't said it. Help
12 us with Mr. Ante Starcevic, who wrote 130 years ago. Was your
programme
13 based on his writings?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I did not create the
15 HDZ platform or programme. It had already been adopted when I
joined the
16 HDZ. Secondly, the teachings of Ante Starcevic do not consist of
17 particular statements that he made under various circumstances.
Ante
18 Starcevic, who is referred to in Croatia as the father of the
homeland,
19 advocated the idea that Croatia had to be independent. He struggled
for
20 the independence of Croatia from Austria and Hungary. In essence,
he was
21 a liberal. On the basis of Croatian state law, he demanded the
22 independence of Croatia. This is the part of his teaching that I
find
23 acceptable, an independent republic of Croatia. This is what was
taken
24 from Starcevic.
25 It was also mentioned, and the accused does not mention this, that
Page 10668
1 the programme was based on the anti-fascist tradition of the peoples
2 liberation struggle. The accused omitted this on purpose, on the
3 traditions of the anti-fascist struggle. So the ideas were not taken
just
4 from one source, but from all sources contributing to a positive
role for
5 Croatia and its citizens. That is why this was referred to in the
6 preamble to the programme. If we are to speak of history, the
accused
7 should say what Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic wrote. He was a Serbian
writer
8 who said that Serbs are all, everyone is a Serb, that the Croats
were
9 nothing but Serbs of Catholic faith, so that all this should be
Serbia.
10 JUDGE MAY: The Trial Chamber is not assisted by the exchange of
11 abuse, particularly abuse a hundred years ago.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is it true that the HDZ policy became more radical with time and
14 that elements who found inspiration in the Croatian state during
World War
15 II grew stronger? I'm referring to the fascist independent state of
16 Croatia.
17 A. The more attacks were mounted against Croatia and its integrity,
18 more excesses arose, and more and more people referred to the
independent
19 state of Croatia. I was against this. I'm still against this
policy,
20 because in essence I am an anti-fascist, and those are the ideas I
always
21 struggled for.
22 Q. Very well. I asked you about what you said about the HDZ, not
23 about what you say about yourself.
24 A. That's why I left the HDZ.
25 Q. Very well. In any case, I see that as the president of the
* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-6.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of
Slobodan
Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to
help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated
legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining
Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the
defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from Yugoslavia
and
the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
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ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the
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lawyers in Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We
need to expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a
non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we
have an
office and office manager available at all times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base
for organizing press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
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=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART V
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12 easy
to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10658
1 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. Just a moment. The witness has said
2 he's telling the truth. Now, don't misrepresent the evidence. If
you've
3 got a question, you can ask it.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I think that we differ because of
5 the translation in your transcript, where it says nephew, and he
says
6 relative or distant cousin, whereas otherwise there is no
difference.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Now, to get back to what you were just saying, that you had no
9 intentions of any kind, Globus, the paper, this is a special
edition,
10 November 1, 1999, which says the following:
11 "Tudjman was in Canada, paid a state visit to Canada in 1988 and
12 1989 [As interpreted] -- 1998 and 1999, and dovetailed concepts,
first
13 that Croatia had to be independent and autonomous, and so on and so
14 forth. Third, that the Serbs must be brought to the level of a
national
15 minority, which meant that Croatia should have been more or less
16 ethnically pure. And fourth, if there are Serbs in
Bosnia-Herzegovina to
17 the extent that they cannot all be expelled to Serbia, all that
remains is
18 to carve up Bosnia-Herzegovina, which will ensure pure Croatian
regions
19 and certain restructuring, and this would be joined onto an
ethnically
20 pure Croatian state." Isn't that right, Mr. Mesic?
21 A. I don't know who said that.
22 Q. This is something that can be read in Globus about a plan that
was
23 dovetailed in 1988 and 1989 [As interpreted] in Canada with the
Ustasha
24 émigrés. Do you know at all about that?
25 A. I know nothing about that plan whatsoever.
Page 10659
1 Q. All right. Thank you. Now, on the basis of what you were saying
2 a moment ago, is it true and correct that Tudjman considered the
3 territories that belonged to the 1938 banovina, that it should be
annexed
4 to Croatia? Is that what he thought? Is that right or not? Annexed.
5 A. He said that that was what Milosevic had proposed.
6 Q. Just a minute. I'm speaking about something else now. I don't
7 want to show you the transcript once again, but you can look at the
8 transcript from that same trial where you testified and the number
of the
9 transcript line is 7130. But to avoid having to go into private
session,
10 I just want to jog your memory and tell you that you did speak
about the
11 subject at that particular time.
12 And just as like a moment ago, when you challenged the fact that
13 Tudjman thought that for Croatia the best solution would be the
1938
14 banovina solution, also from your testimony, on page 7129 and 7130,
you
15 said what you said. So tell me now: Is it true that the HDZ party
for
16 you was an extremist nationalistic --
17 MR. NICE: If this line of questioning is to be of any value at
18 all --
19 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Nice.
20 MR. NICE: If this is to be of any value at all, the following
21 thing should happen: The Chamber will have to go into private
session,
22 not because itself necessarily wants to. It simply that this was
23 protected evidence of another Chamber and we don't have rights to
do
24 anything else. Second, the transcript will then have to be examined
25 properly with the witness being in a position to read it and the
Chamber
Page 10660
1 being able to see the full context.
2 JUDGE MAY: At the moment I do not wish to go into private
3 session. It cuts up the cross-examination, makes it very difficult
for
4 everybody else to follow. If there is a significant point here, no
doubt
5 our attention can be drawn to it.
6 MR. NICE: Can I simply also then ask that the accused reminds me,
7 or through the Chamber, of what page he says its was on which the
first
8 reference was to be found. He says 7266 but it doesn't match my page
9 numbering.
10 JUDGE MAY: That's the note we have, 7266.
11 Mr. Milosevic, you will have -- if you want to quote from the
12 transcript, if there's any significance in what was said earlier,
do you
13 want to quote from the transcript, we have to go into private
session.
14 Those are the rules which we have to follow. Now, if we can avoid
doing
15 that, we should do so.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Yes, Mr. May, but it is not proper
17 and correct that the public should not be able to see this, that
18 Mr. Mesic, for the most part --
19 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter about that. It is the Rules which
20 we have to follow. This was private session evidence, therefore it
should
21 be dealt with in private session. Now, do you want to ask anything
more
22 about that transcript or not?
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. I'll ask him something
24 about -- something else from the transcript in the Dokmanovic
trial, where
25 he wasn't a protected witness.
Page 10661
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is it correct that the HDZ is an extremist nationalistic party
3 which introduced a uniform, unilateral way of thought that captured
people
4 in this way? Is that what you think? And you expressed words to that
5 effect in the Dokmanovic trial, where you were not a protected
witness.
6 The transcript page is 1714 in the testimony against him, and that
is
7 where you made a statement to that effect. You said that that was
your
8 opinion later on, not straight away, not from the very outset. So
when
9 did you come to think that way?
10 JUDGE MAY: Wait a moment. In order that the witness can deal
11 with this properly, have we got a copy of the transcript, Mr. Nice?
First
12 of all, have we got a copy of the transcript.
13 MR. NICE: Yes.
14 JUDGE MAY: Secondly, can the witness follow it?
15 MR. NICE: It's in English, I'm afraid, so he probably can't
16 follow it, because his English is not probably at the level to deal
with
17 that. But we have a copy for Your Honours if Your Honours haven't
seen
18 it.
19 JUDGE MAY: We, we have it here.
20 Mr. Mesic -- I'll deal with it. Mr. Mesic, what is being put to
21 you in the passage which the accused is asking you about is counsel
says,
22 counsel Mr. Fila, put: "We read that for you the HDZ is an
extremist
23 nationalist party, a hindrance to democracy which introduced a
single way
24 of thinking and which robbed the people. Is that what you really
meant?"
25 And you replied: To look at this in terms of the period -- time
period
Page 10662
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10663
1 involved. "Okay," said witness. "Have you said something like this?"
2 And you replied: "The statement of yours calls for clarification,
namely,
3 when the HDZ was established first, when I was its member, when its
4 programme was elaborated, that was a party that was in favour of a
5 multiparty system for democratisation of free society. When the
balance
6 of political forces in the HDZ changed, I left the HDZ and I became
7 critical of the policy."
8 So counsel then put: That is to say that this statement,
9 obviously referring to his earlier statement, is from the latter
period.
10 And you replied: Yes, from the latter period.
11 Now, you're being asked about the comment that the HDZ was or
12 became an extreme nationalist party, a hindrance to democracy,
introducing
13 a single way of thinking. Can you help us as to whether you said
that,
14 and if you wish to elaborate on it, do.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When the HDZ was formed, just like
16 the other parties in Croatia, after the socialist model, I wanted
to have
17 a multiparty system. That's what I was in favour of, of a contest
of
18 opinion of democracy. That's what I wanted. Now, as the threats
were
19 coming from Serbia, threats which the accused himself, via his
rallies,
20 was sending out to Croatia, and they were coming from Vojvodina,
from
21 Serbia, and from Kosovo, the so-called rallies for truth, where it
was
22 stated that the people attending the rallies would go as far as
Ljubljana
23 and that what they would do was to stop over in Zagreb, topple the
24 government there, and carry on by way of passing. I considered that
the
25 HDZ could mobilise in Croatia people for setting up resistance to
that
Page 10664
1 kind of policy on the part of Milosevic, and I joined the HDZ
because I
2 considered that we would be able to protect the interests of the
Republic
3 of Croatia. However, because of the erroneous policy which prevailed
4 later on, or rather, the erroneous policy towards and vis-a-vis
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, the wrong model of privatisation which was seen
and
6 the insufficient functioning of the rule of law in the country, the
7 insufficient functioning of the institutions inherent in the rule of
law,
8 I left that policy behind. I stepped down from it, because finally I
9 could still go on being the president of the Sabor parliament. I had
to
10 take part in that policy and politics. But as I did not agree with
the
11 policies, I left the post of president of parliament and joined the
12 opposition.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Mr. Mesic, you relinquished the post of president of parliament,
15 as you said a moment ago, only after the first quarter of 1994.
However,
16 the destructive policy of the HDZ, according to you, began already
in
17 March 1991; isn't that so?
18 A. Yes, you're quite right. From your agreement in Karadjordjevo.
19 Q. So you ascribe the destructive policy of the HDZ, you date it to
20 March 1991 and you ascribe it to me. Is that so, Mr. Mesic?
21 A. Well, if you offered the carving up and division of Bosnia, then
22 it is quite true that in part you did take part in the creation of
the
23 wrong kind of policy.
24 Q. Well, as you well know, I never offered a division of Bosnia nor
25 was that our policy. And if you believe I did so, then please show
me one
Page 10665
1 detail which would be illustrative of that?
2 A. Not only the division of Bosnia. It is sufficient that you paid
3 the army in Bosnia-Herzegovina. It is sufficient to read the book
written
4 by General Veljko Kadijevic, the Federal Secretary for National
Defence,
5 who speaks precisely of the Virovitica-Karlobag-Karlovac border and
that
6 you stood behind that border, Mr. Accused. That same person
Kadijevic,
7 the Federal Secretary for National Defence, Blagoje Adzic, General
Blagoje
8 Adzic, who was the Chief of Staff of the General Staff of the
Yugoslav
9 army, never came to me. They never, ever came to me in the
Presidency,
10 although I embodied the Supreme Command. They never came to see me.
I
11 insisted -- it was I who insisted on going to see them. They never
came
12 to see me. But if you read Boro Jovic and his books and if you read
13 Mamula and his books, if you read Veljko Kadijevic and his books,
you will
14 see that the agreements were only and exclusively made with the
accused.
15 Q. First of all, that is not correct. I don't know what they say in
16 their books. Mamula retired even before the tensions mounted in
Croatia,
17 and later on in Bosnia. But I assume that you are a passionate
reader of
18 all these various books. But now tell me, please: As you were
referring
19 to the HDZ just now, in 1991 it started acting destructively, so
how can
20 you put up with this for a full three years, staying in that
destructive
21 party for three years as its executive chief, that is, as president
of the
22 Executive Board of the HDZ?
23 A. The point is something else. I was the president of the
executive
24 board of the HDZ. Let me tell you -- just a moment. From the 29th
of
25 December, 1991 until the 7th of August, 1992. This is the period in
which
Page 10666
1 I was at the head of the Executive Board of the HDZ. The point is
that as
2 soon as I saw that the policy was not the policy I had advocated, I
could
3 have relinquished it. That is true. However, in Croatia, I would
have
4 been seen as someone who refused to face the problems Croatia was
facing
5 at that moment, and it would have been thought that I had not done
enough
6 to correct the things that were going wrong in Croatia. I hoped that
with
7 those who thought the same way I did, I could correct the HDZ
policy, that
8 we could win. That is why, with other representatives, or rather,
with 23
9 MPs of the Croatian parliament, I discussed our leaving the HDZ.
This was
10 in 1993. In this way, we could have achieved cohabitation. The
11 opposition would have been the strongest in parliament, and HDZ
would have
12 held executive power. Things would have been different had we
succeeded.
13 But unfortunately, I was not successful. Only 11 MPs followed me,
and we
14 had one vote less than we needed to be the majority in parliament.
15 If you want to make a big change, you need to have a critical mass
16 with you. I thought that 23 MPs in parliament would be sufficient.
We
17 did not succeed, but I went over to the opposition. So I cannot
pinpoint
18 a date and say up to that date the policy was right; after that
date, the
19 policy was wrong. There was a continuity of events in politics.
When
20 enough things happen, one responds. My response was to try to
contribute,
21 in a positive way, to a better climate and a better policy in
Croatia.
22 Q. Very well. That was two years after March 1991, when you say
that
23 the destructive policy of the HDZ started. You say that to start
with the
24 HDZ was a democratic party and so on. In the HDZ platform, which I
assume
25 you contributed to, together with the other leaders of the HDZ, you
say
Page 10667
1 that the programme is based, among other things, on the teachings of
Ante
2 Starcevic. Let me just remind you what Ante Starcevic said -- or
rather,
3 wrote about the Serbs. He called the Serbs -- I don't know if this
can be
4 translated. I wouldn't be able to translate it. He called them
filthy
5 spawn, horrible slaves, people who were fit for the axe, Austrian
dogs,
6 inflated bags?
7 JUDGE MAY: When was this kind of thing written?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Ante Starcevic wrote, for example,
9 in 1870, because the witness based his programme on that of Ante
10 Starcevic, who wrote --
11 JUDGE MAY: You're saying that. The witness hasn't said it. Help
12 us with Mr. Ante Starcevic, who wrote 130 years ago. Was your
programme
13 based on his writings?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I did not create the
15 HDZ platform or programme. It had already been adopted when I
joined the
16 HDZ. Secondly, the teachings of Ante Starcevic do not consist of
17 particular statements that he made under various circumstances.
Ante
18 Starcevic, who is referred to in Croatia as the father of the
homeland,
19 advocated the idea that Croatia had to be independent. He struggled
for
20 the independence of Croatia from Austria and Hungary. In essence,
he was
21 a liberal. On the basis of Croatian state law, he demanded the
22 independence of Croatia. This is the part of his teaching that I
find
23 acceptable, an independent republic of Croatia. This is what was
taken
24 from Starcevic.
25 It was also mentioned, and the accused does not mention this, that
Page 10668
1 the programme was based on the anti-fascist tradition of the peoples
2 liberation struggle. The accused omitted this on purpose, on the
3 traditions of the anti-fascist struggle. So the ideas were not taken
just
4 from one source, but from all sources contributing to a positive
role for
5 Croatia and its citizens. That is why this was referred to in the
6 preamble to the programme. If we are to speak of history, the
accused
7 should say what Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic wrote. He was a Serbian
writer
8 who said that Serbs are all, everyone is a Serb, that the Croats
were
9 nothing but Serbs of Catholic faith, so that all this should be
Serbia.
10 JUDGE MAY: The Trial Chamber is not assisted by the exchange of
11 abuse, particularly abuse a hundred years ago.
12 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
13 Q. Is it true that the HDZ policy became more radical with time and
14 that elements who found inspiration in the Croatian state during
World War
15 II grew stronger? I'm referring to the fascist independent state of
16 Croatia.
17 A. The more attacks were mounted against Croatia and its integrity,
18 more excesses arose, and more and more people referred to the
independent
19 state of Croatia. I was against this. I'm still against this
policy,
20 because in essence I am an anti-fascist, and those are the ideas I
always
21 struggled for.
22 Q. Very well. I asked you about what you said about the HDZ, not
23 about what you say about yourself.
24 A. That's why I left the HDZ.
25 Q. Very well. In any case, I see that as the president of the
* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-6.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of
Slobodan
Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to
help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated
legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining
Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the
defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from Yugoslavia
and
the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in
the
ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the
European Court, about which more news soon. These efforts urgently
require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of Yugoslav
lawyers in Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We
need to expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a
non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we
have an
office and office manager available at all times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base
for organizing press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
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