International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
http://www.icdsm.org - http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/index.htm
=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART VII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12 easy
to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
OR
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10680
1 are matters of argument. So, Mr. Milosevic, let's move on.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it clear to you that in that Yugoslav People's
Army,
4 there could not have been a single officer who would have issued
orders to
5 have innocent civilians executed?
6 JUDGE MAY: That is precisely the point, which is purely one of
7 argument and nothing else. Now, have you got further questions?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have an enormous number of
9 questions left, but I have a present for Mr. Mesic, a map of camps
for
10 Serbs from 1991 to 1996, with a list of all camps according to
different
11 towns. 221, to be exact. When he goes back to Croatia, let him
check
12 that out and then he can give an answer to this question, because
13 obviously he cannot give an answer now. Could you please have this
map
14 shown on the ELMO. 221 camps.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need that, because this
16 simply is not true. There were --
17 JUDGE MAY: Just let us see. What is this document that you're
18 producing, Mr. Milosevic? Where does it come from?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The committee for collecting
20 information on crimes against humanity that were committed and
violations
21 of international law, published in Belgrade the 5th of February,
2001. I
22 was no longer president of Yugoslavia then. On the 5th of February,
2001.
23 It is the committee for collecting information on crimes committed.
This
24 is a map with all the camps and a list of all the camps in Croatia.
25 However, in all fairness, in Bosnia-Herzegovina there were 536.
Page 10681
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So you did not rank first.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please have this put on the overhead
4 projector so it can be seen.
5 JUDGE MAY: For what it's worth, this document may be put on the
6 overhead projector, the witness can look at it. He probably hasn't
seen
7 it. It can be shown to the Prosecution.
8 And then, Mr. Milosevic, if you want to prove it, that is, you
9 want it exhibited, then you can prove it yourself when you call your
10 evidence.
11 Yes, Mr. Mesic, you can --
12 Don't interrupt.
13 Mr. Mesic, just have a look at that, see if there's anything that
14 you can say about it or not. You've heard where it comes from,
you've
15 heard what it purports to be.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croatia did not have any camps, but
17 I do repeat: There were illegal acts, there were abuses, there were
18 crimes, and what I'm asking for is that every crime should be
investigated
19 and the perpetrators punished. I am struggling for individual guilt
to be
20 established. I don't want any collective responsibility. This has
21 nothing to do with the truth.
22 Q. All right. So you don't want to --
23 JUDGE MAY: Let the Prosecution have that document and then it can
24 be returned to the accused.
25 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
Page 10682
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is it correct that among the generals that you refer to, that
they
3 took part in operations in Bosnia, were Milivoj Petkovic?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please slow down. The
5 interpreters could not --
6 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down. Slow down, please.
7 A. Yes, some generals themselves said that they were in Bosnia, but
8 they said this subsequently.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. What did they say?
11 A. Subsequently.
12 Q. Oh, subsequently. Petkovic, Roso, you say that they were not
13 there?
14 A. I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying that they did not say
15 then, that they said afterwards that they had been in Bosnia.
16 Q. And is it correct that you said that the decision on the ethnic
17 cleansing of Muslims was not formally passed but that it was
carried out.
18 Is that correct or is that not correct?
19 A. I imagine it is understandable that if everybody leaves a
village
20 and that they were forced to leave a village, that that is ethnic
21 cleansing.
22 Q. Is it true that as far as Pero Markovic is concerned, the mayor
of
23 Capljina, you said that he carried out ethnic cleansing?
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, how does it help? How is it relevant
25 whether an individual carried out ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? To
deal
Page 10683
1 with an indictment? What you must understand is that attacking
others is
2 not a form of defence, and therefore the relevance is strictly
limited.
3 Now, what is under investigation in this trial is the activities
which are
4 alleged in the indictment. For you to attack the others is no
defence and
5 of little, if any, relevance. Now, have you got anything else you
want to
6 ask this witness about his evidence as opposed to allegations that
you
7 want to make about others? No doubt this institution has
investigated and
8 will investigate those allegations against others, but it's of no
9 assistance to this Trial Chamber to make allegations about the
conflict
10 between the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats in 1992 and 1993
when
11 we're dealing with crimes alleged to have been committed by you and
others
12 in Croatia strictly, but also in Bosnia.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what I'm bearing in mind is
14 precisely the profile of this witness. As for everything that
happened,
15 he accuses me, first and foremost, then he accuses his former
president
16 and his former political party, and his own generals, and he was
the one
17 who gave them instructions, and he also accuses his own
politicians, the
18 ones that he gave instructions to, in order to protect himself from
19 responsibility, which is vast, both in terms of the break-up of
Yugoslavia
20 and everything else that he is now accusing the HDZ and Tudjman and
other
21 factors of, under this slogan that this is the rule of law that he
favours
22 and that that's what he's struggling for. And until 1994, what, he
did
23 not struggle for the rule of law then?
24 JUDGE MAY: The accusations which a witness might make are not
25 relevant. It's his evidence which he makes and it's on that which
you
Page 10684
1 must concentrate.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am testifying about the facts that
3 I know about. I cannot testify about those that I'm not aware of.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Who destroyed the bridge in Mostar? Is it
6 correct that it was destroyed by the Croatian forces?
7 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to allow the question. Move on to
8 something else, Mr. Milosevic. You really must deal with this
witness's
9 evidence, not a generalised attack upon the Bosnian Croatians.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 Q. Now, are the words correct by Imre Agotic, your military ally,
12 that were published in Zagreb that the greatest crimes were
performed when
13 they were taking over the terrain, that is to say, when the MUP of
Croatia
14 and the police were taking over the terrain?
15 JUDGE MAY: Which terrain are you talking about?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic -- yes. Another question, and move
18 off this topic. Move on to something more relevant.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. As you say that you didn't meddle and
21 interfere in this, is it true that you, as a high-ranking
functionary of
22 the HDZ, personally went to Bosnia-Herzegovina and replaced Stjepan
Kljuc
23 from the post of HDZ head in Bosnia? Is that true or is it not?
24 A. I did not replace him. I went there as an HDZ official, but that
25 has nothing to do with this trial.
Page 10685
1 Q. Well, it does have very much to do with this trial, because it
2 testifies to your direct involvement in the events in Bosnia, for
which
3 you accuse me.
4 A. May I explain?
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, since you've been asked.
6 A. The HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina was under the influence of the HDZ
7 of Croatia, because ultimately the HDZ was the one that founded it.
And
8 when the first president was replaced, the first president of the
HDZ of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, then what we had -- what had to be done was for
a new
10 HDZ president for Bosnia and Herzegovina to be elected. This could
only
11 be done at a party congress. But that party congress was not
scheduled.
12 A Presidency meeting was scheduled. President Tudjman asked me to
go to
13 Siroki Brijeg, which is where the HDZ Bosnia-Herzegovina was
meeting at
14 the time, to intervene in this method of replacement of Stjepan
Kljuc, who
15 at the time was president of the HDZ Presidency for
Bosnia-Herzegovina. I
16 got in touch with some people. I went to Siroki Brijeg. I spoke to
17 people there, and they told me that they supported Stjepan Kljuc.
What I
18 said to them was the following: Kljuc, it is my task that he be
replaced,
19 but that I talked to people and that he would be given a vote of
20 confidence if he tenders his resignation. However, what he did was
indeed
21 tender his resignation, irreversibly, and went to Sarajevo. Before
doing
22 so, he asked me: "How are you going to explain that away to
Tudjman?
23 That is to say if I am given a vote of confidence, how are you
going to
24 explain that to Tudjman?" And I said: "Well, I'll say the majority
was
25 in favour of not accepting your resignation and you will remain the
Page 10686
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 10687
1 president of the HDZ party." And then he became afraid. He was
afraid
2 for his own survival. He got into his car and left Siroki Brijeg for
3 Sarajevo.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. All right. And is it true that the various decisions which refer
6 to Bosnia-Herzegovina, not only the one you mentioned a moment ago,
among
7 others, was taken by people in Zagreb, such as Vice Vukojevic from
Zagreb?
8 Was Vice Vukojevic a member of the Croatian Sabor or parliament?
9 A. Yes, he was a member of the Croatian Sabor, and he did appear in
10 uniform, in HVO uniform. Otherwise, his origins are from
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I said to President Tudjman that I didn't
like
12 what Vice Vukojevic was doing. I criticised him.
13 Q. All right. You talk to Vukojevic and he said that they had shot
14 people. Is that right or not, Mr. Mesic?
15 A. No, it is not.
16 Q. Well, you can find that in the transcript, 7063.
17 A. No. He said something else. I said something else. And please
18 don't distort what I and he said. He said that in the battle for
Prozor,
19 the place called Prozor, a lot of Muslims had lost their lives, and
I
20 asked him whether anybody had been killed on the Croatian side or
perhaps
21 wounded. He said no, and that was all. I didn't have any further
22 conversation with him because I didn't think that you could have
people
23 killed on one side and nobody even wounded on the other. And I
never
24 spoke to him again after that.
25 Q. So you were angry with him, were you, because of that, because
you
Page 10688
1 in fact ascertained that crimes had been committed, but you didn't
take
2 steps at all. All you did was to be angry with him and you never
spoke to
3 him again.
4 A. The accused is well aware of the fact that this was
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, their territory, and that I wasn't able to
undertake
6 anything there. He knows that full well.
7 Q. Is it true that there were many members of the Croatian
parliament
8 who went to Bosnia, many Croatian MPs who went to Bosnia during the
war,
9 not only Vice Vukojevic but others too, wearing uniforms, to take
part of
10 the war there?
11 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt now because there's a real
12 danger of this trial being totally sidelined about matters which
were not
13 part of the witness's evidence, and that is namely the conflict in
Bosnia
14 between the Croatians and the Muslims.
15 Now, Mr. Kay, you mentioned a matter earlier, and on the grounds
16 that this might be relevant in terms of credibility of the witness.
But
17 obviously the Trial Chamber must keep the matter within bounds. The
18 witness's evidence is essentially about Croatia, although I'm aware
that
19 Bosnia, of course, is also subject of an indictment and to some
extent his
20 evidence may be relevant to that. The question is to what extent is
the
21 accused entitled, if at all, to examine matters which at the moment
appear
22 to have no bearing at all on the issues which the witness raised or
indeed
23 the issues in the trial. This is a serious matter because clearly
if he's
24 going to follow the same approach which he used before, which was
to use
25 cross-examination as a vehicle to make allegations against the
other side,
Page 10689
1 to what extent is he entitled to do that, do you submit?
2 MR. KAY: He's entitled to attack the credentials of this
3 particular witness, who has maintained during his direct examination
that
4 he was only seeking to enforce the rule of law and was not a party
taking
5 part in hostilities within the region. Plainly, the accused
disagrees
6 with that and is attacking the knowledge of this witness as to what
were
7 the real events within the region and the participation of himself
and his
8 political party within those events. One appreciates that there is a
time
9 limit on a witness giving evidence, and that is the real issue here
for
10 the accused. Time spent on matters that are not productive of his
defence
11 to the indictment obviously can cause him to be in difficulty in
putting
12 forward a defence to the charges. But in many respects, we believe
he is
13 aware of those issues. They have been sufficiently in force during
the
14 trial, and attempts have been made by the amicus to ensure that he
does
15 put his case and is given an opportunity to do so. In many
respects,
16 where the subject of the Trial Chamber's ruling here in relation to
17 timing.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the point is that he obviously is
19 entitled to test the witness's credibility by asking about matters
20 relating to Bosnia, but the real issue is: How far can he go down
that
21 road? It would seem to me that once he has put a question in
relation to
22 a particular matter touching on Bosnia and he has received an
answer on
23 that, then he should move on to another issue. In that regard, he
would
24 have been allowed to test credibility in relation to that matter,
but I
25 think the issue being raised by the Presiding Judge is that
apparently he
Page 10690
1 goes too far down the road, and that tends to take us into areas
that are
2 not relevant.
3 MR. KAY: A helpful way may be to just make the point here that
4 the Trial Chamber is aware of the matters that have been put in
issue by
5 the accused, that the Trial Chamber is aware that he has put in
issue
6 various aspects of this witness's evidence, so that any
reinforcement of
7 that fact is not further necessary.
8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Milosevic, you've heard what's been said. You know there are
10 time limits. There is a question of how far you can continue to
deal with
11 matters which are purely peripheral, and bear in mind, as has been
said,
12 that the Trial Chamber realises quite well what you're putting in
issue
13 and the challenges you make to the credibility of this witness. You
14 should therefore deal with any matters which you think are
important,
15 which you might not otherwise be able to do so because of time, as
early
16 as possible. Now, you are subject to time limits, and there will be
17 another seven minutes and then we'll have to adjourn.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I understood that in addition
19 to the time constraints and limits that have seen to be
precipitously come
20 to the fore in the case of this witness, that I do have at least
until the
21 close of business today. I think that is a minimum. But I think
that it
22 would be in order if you were to give me a little more time, if you
were
23 really to take into account the quest for truth.
24 JUDGE MAY: We have in mind the time limits taken by the
25 Prosecution. You should have roughly similar. You can have until 20
* Continued at:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-8.htm
OR
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***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the
request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have
organized research to help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And
we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited
to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced
further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's
aggression and experts from Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell
what really happened and expose media lies. Moreover,
Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some friendly and
some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's
use of racism, violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the
Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts
and before the European Court, about which more
news soon. These efforts urgently require financial support. We now
maintain a small staff of Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a
non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we
have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and process evidence and for meetings with witnesses
and lawyers and as a base for organizing press
conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for
attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
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=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART VII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12 easy
to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
OR
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10680
1 are matters of argument. So, Mr. Milosevic, let's move on.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it clear to you that in that Yugoslav People's
Army,
4 there could not have been a single officer who would have issued
orders to
5 have innocent civilians executed?
6 JUDGE MAY: That is precisely the point, which is purely one of
7 argument and nothing else. Now, have you got further questions?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I have an enormous number of
9 questions left, but I have a present for Mr. Mesic, a map of camps
for
10 Serbs from 1991 to 1996, with a list of all camps according to
different
11 towns. 221, to be exact. When he goes back to Croatia, let him
check
12 that out and then he can give an answer to this question, because
13 obviously he cannot give an answer now. Could you please have this
map
14 shown on the ELMO. 221 camps.
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't need that, because this
16 simply is not true. There were --
17 JUDGE MAY: Just let us see. What is this document that you're
18 producing, Mr. Milosevic? Where does it come from?
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The committee for collecting
20 information on crimes against humanity that were committed and
violations
21 of international law, published in Belgrade the 5th of February,
2001. I
22 was no longer president of Yugoslavia then. On the 5th of February,
2001.
23 It is the committee for collecting information on crimes committed.
This
24 is a map with all the camps and a list of all the camps in Croatia.
25 However, in all fairness, in Bosnia-Herzegovina there were 536.
Page 10681
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. So you did not rank first.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Please have this put on the overhead
4 projector so it can be seen.
5 JUDGE MAY: For what it's worth, this document may be put on the
6 overhead projector, the witness can look at it. He probably hasn't
seen
7 it. It can be shown to the Prosecution.
8 And then, Mr. Milosevic, if you want to prove it, that is, you
9 want it exhibited, then you can prove it yourself when you call your
10 evidence.
11 Yes, Mr. Mesic, you can --
12 Don't interrupt.
13 Mr. Mesic, just have a look at that, see if there's anything that
14 you can say about it or not. You've heard where it comes from,
you've
15 heard what it purports to be.
16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Croatia did not have any camps, but
17 I do repeat: There were illegal acts, there were abuses, there were
18 crimes, and what I'm asking for is that every crime should be
investigated
19 and the perpetrators punished. I am struggling for individual guilt
to be
20 established. I don't want any collective responsibility. This has
21 nothing to do with the truth.
22 Q. All right. So you don't want to --
23 JUDGE MAY: Let the Prosecution have that document and then it can
24 be returned to the accused.
25 Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
Page 10682
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is it correct that among the generals that you refer to, that
they
3 took part in operations in Bosnia, were Milivoj Petkovic?
4 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please slow down. The
5 interpreters could not --
6 JUDGE MAY: You're being asked to slow down. Slow down, please.
7 A. Yes, some generals themselves said that they were in Bosnia, but
8 they said this subsequently.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. What did they say?
11 A. Subsequently.
12 Q. Oh, subsequently. Petkovic, Roso, you say that they were not
13 there?
14 A. I'm not saying anything. I'm just saying that they did not say
15 then, that they said afterwards that they had been in Bosnia.
16 Q. And is it correct that you said that the decision on the ethnic
17 cleansing of Muslims was not formally passed but that it was
carried out.
18 Is that correct or is that not correct?
19 A. I imagine it is understandable that if everybody leaves a
village
20 and that they were forced to leave a village, that that is ethnic
21 cleansing.
22 Q. Is it true that as far as Pero Markovic is concerned, the mayor
of
23 Capljina, you said that he carried out ethnic cleansing?
24 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, how does it help? How is it relevant
25 whether an individual carried out ethnic cleansing in Bosnia? To
deal
Page 10683
1 with an indictment? What you must understand is that attacking
others is
2 not a form of defence, and therefore the relevance is strictly
limited.
3 Now, what is under investigation in this trial is the activities
which are
4 alleged in the indictment. For you to attack the others is no
defence and
5 of little, if any, relevance. Now, have you got anything else you
want to
6 ask this witness about his evidence as opposed to allegations that
you
7 want to make about others? No doubt this institution has
investigated and
8 will investigate those allegations against others, but it's of no
9 assistance to this Trial Chamber to make allegations about the
conflict
10 between the Bosnian Muslims and the Bosnian Croats in 1992 and 1993
when
11 we're dealing with crimes alleged to have been committed by you and
others
12 in Croatia strictly, but also in Bosnia.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what I'm bearing in mind is
14 precisely the profile of this witness. As for everything that
happened,
15 he accuses me, first and foremost, then he accuses his former
president
16 and his former political party, and his own generals, and he was
the one
17 who gave them instructions, and he also accuses his own
politicians, the
18 ones that he gave instructions to, in order to protect himself from
19 responsibility, which is vast, both in terms of the break-up of
Yugoslavia
20 and everything else that he is now accusing the HDZ and Tudjman and
other
21 factors of, under this slogan that this is the rule of law that he
favours
22 and that that's what he's struggling for. And until 1994, what, he
did
23 not struggle for the rule of law then?
24 JUDGE MAY: The accusations which a witness might make are not
25 relevant. It's his evidence which he makes and it's on that which
you
Page 10684
1 must concentrate.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I am testifying about the facts that
3 I know about. I cannot testify about those that I'm not aware of.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Who destroyed the bridge in Mostar? Is it
6 correct that it was destroyed by the Croatian forces?
7 JUDGE MAY: I'm not going to allow the question. Move on to
8 something else, Mr. Milosevic. You really must deal with this
witness's
9 evidence, not a generalised attack upon the Bosnian Croatians.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation] Very well.
11 Q. Now, are the words correct by Imre Agotic, your military ally,
12 that were published in Zagreb that the greatest crimes were
performed when
13 they were taking over the terrain, that is to say, when the MUP of
Croatia
14 and the police were taking over the terrain?
15 JUDGE MAY: Which terrain are you talking about?
16 THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.
17 JUDGE MAY: No. Mr. Milosevic -- yes. Another question, and move
18 off this topic. Move on to something more relevant.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. As you say that you didn't meddle and
21 interfere in this, is it true that you, as a high-ranking
functionary of
22 the HDZ, personally went to Bosnia-Herzegovina and replaced Stjepan
Kljuc
23 from the post of HDZ head in Bosnia? Is that true or is it not?
24 A. I did not replace him. I went there as an HDZ official, but that
25 has nothing to do with this trial.
Page 10685
1 Q. Well, it does have very much to do with this trial, because it
2 testifies to your direct involvement in the events in Bosnia, for
which
3 you accuse me.
4 A. May I explain?
5 JUDGE MAY: Yes, since you've been asked.
6 A. The HDZ of Bosnia-Herzegovina was under the influence of the HDZ
7 of Croatia, because ultimately the HDZ was the one that founded it.
And
8 when the first president was replaced, the first president of the
HDZ of
9 Bosnia-Herzegovina, then what we had -- what had to be done was for
a new
10 HDZ president for Bosnia and Herzegovina to be elected. This could
only
11 be done at a party congress. But that party congress was not
scheduled.
12 A Presidency meeting was scheduled. President Tudjman asked me to
go to
13 Siroki Brijeg, which is where the HDZ Bosnia-Herzegovina was
meeting at
14 the time, to intervene in this method of replacement of Stjepan
Kljuc, who
15 at the time was president of the HDZ Presidency for
Bosnia-Herzegovina. I
16 got in touch with some people. I went to Siroki Brijeg. I spoke to
17 people there, and they told me that they supported Stjepan Kljuc.
What I
18 said to them was the following: Kljuc, it is my task that he be
replaced,
19 but that I talked to people and that he would be given a vote of
20 confidence if he tenders his resignation. However, what he did was
indeed
21 tender his resignation, irreversibly, and went to Sarajevo. Before
doing
22 so, he asked me: "How are you going to explain that away to
Tudjman?
23 That is to say if I am given a vote of confidence, how are you
going to
24 explain that to Tudjman?" And I said: "Well, I'll say the majority
was
25 in favour of not accepting your resignation and you will remain the
Page 10686
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 10687
1 president of the HDZ party." And then he became afraid. He was
afraid
2 for his own survival. He got into his car and left Siroki Brijeg for
3 Sarajevo.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. All right. And is it true that the various decisions which refer
6 to Bosnia-Herzegovina, not only the one you mentioned a moment ago,
among
7 others, was taken by people in Zagreb, such as Vice Vukojevic from
Zagreb?
8 Was Vice Vukojevic a member of the Croatian Sabor or parliament?
9 A. Yes, he was a member of the Croatian Sabor, and he did appear in
10 uniform, in HVO uniform. Otherwise, his origins are from
11 Bosnia-Herzegovina. And I said to President Tudjman that I didn't
like
12 what Vice Vukojevic was doing. I criticised him.
13 Q. All right. You talk to Vukojevic and he said that they had shot
14 people. Is that right or not, Mr. Mesic?
15 A. No, it is not.
16 Q. Well, you can find that in the transcript, 7063.
17 A. No. He said something else. I said something else. And please
18 don't distort what I and he said. He said that in the battle for
Prozor,
19 the place called Prozor, a lot of Muslims had lost their lives, and
I
20 asked him whether anybody had been killed on the Croatian side or
perhaps
21 wounded. He said no, and that was all. I didn't have any further
22 conversation with him because I didn't think that you could have
people
23 killed on one side and nobody even wounded on the other. And I
never
24 spoke to him again after that.
25 Q. So you were angry with him, were you, because of that, because
you
Page 10688
1 in fact ascertained that crimes had been committed, but you didn't
take
2 steps at all. All you did was to be angry with him and you never
spoke to
3 him again.
4 A. The accused is well aware of the fact that this was
5 Bosnia-Herzegovina, their territory, and that I wasn't able to
undertake
6 anything there. He knows that full well.
7 Q. Is it true that there were many members of the Croatian
parliament
8 who went to Bosnia, many Croatian MPs who went to Bosnia during the
war,
9 not only Vice Vukojevic but others too, wearing uniforms, to take
part of
10 the war there?
11 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to interrupt now because there's a real
12 danger of this trial being totally sidelined about matters which
were not
13 part of the witness's evidence, and that is namely the conflict in
Bosnia
14 between the Croatians and the Muslims.
15 Now, Mr. Kay, you mentioned a matter earlier, and on the grounds
16 that this might be relevant in terms of credibility of the witness.
But
17 obviously the Trial Chamber must keep the matter within bounds. The
18 witness's evidence is essentially about Croatia, although I'm aware
that
19 Bosnia, of course, is also subject of an indictment and to some
extent his
20 evidence may be relevant to that. The question is to what extent is
the
21 accused entitled, if at all, to examine matters which at the moment
appear
22 to have no bearing at all on the issues which the witness raised or
indeed
23 the issues in the trial. This is a serious matter because clearly
if he's
24 going to follow the same approach which he used before, which was
to use
25 cross-examination as a vehicle to make allegations against the
other side,
Page 10689
1 to what extent is he entitled to do that, do you submit?
2 MR. KAY: He's entitled to attack the credentials of this
3 particular witness, who has maintained during his direct examination
that
4 he was only seeking to enforce the rule of law and was not a party
taking
5 part in hostilities within the region. Plainly, the accused
disagrees
6 with that and is attacking the knowledge of this witness as to what
were
7 the real events within the region and the participation of himself
and his
8 political party within those events. One appreciates that there is a
time
9 limit on a witness giving evidence, and that is the real issue here
for
10 the accused. Time spent on matters that are not productive of his
defence
11 to the indictment obviously can cause him to be in difficulty in
putting
12 forward a defence to the charges. But in many respects, we believe
he is
13 aware of those issues. They have been sufficiently in force during
the
14 trial, and attempts have been made by the amicus to ensure that he
does
15 put his case and is given an opportunity to do so. In many
respects,
16 where the subject of the Trial Chamber's ruling here in relation to
17 timing.
18 JUDGE ROBINSON: I think the point is that he obviously is
19 entitled to test the witness's credibility by asking about matters
20 relating to Bosnia, but the real issue is: How far can he go down
that
21 road? It would seem to me that once he has put a question in
relation to
22 a particular matter touching on Bosnia and he has received an
answer on
23 that, then he should move on to another issue. In that regard, he
would
24 have been allowed to test credibility in relation to that matter,
but I
25 think the issue being raised by the Presiding Judge is that
apparently he
Page 10690
1 goes too far down the road, and that tends to take us into areas
that are
2 not relevant.
3 MR. KAY: A helpful way may be to just make the point here that
4 the Trial Chamber is aware of the matters that have been put in
issue by
5 the accused, that the Trial Chamber is aware that he has put in
issue
6 various aspects of this witness's evidence, so that any
reinforcement of
7 that fact is not further necessary.
8 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
9 Mr. Milosevic, you've heard what's been said. You know there are
10 time limits. There is a question of how far you can continue to
deal with
11 matters which are purely peripheral, and bear in mind, as has been
said,
12 that the Trial Chamber realises quite well what you're putting in
issue
13 and the challenges you make to the credibility of this witness. You
14 should therefore deal with any matters which you think are
important,
15 which you might not otherwise be able to do so because of time, as
early
16 as possible. Now, you are subject to time limits, and there will be
17 another seven minutes and then we'll have to adjourn.
18 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, I understood that in addition
19 to the time constraints and limits that have seen to be
precipitously come
20 to the fore in the case of this witness, that I do have at least
until the
21 close of business today. I think that is a minimum. But I think
that it
22 would be in order if you were to give me a little more time, if you
were
23 really to take into account the quest for truth.
24 JUDGE MAY: We have in mind the time limits taken by the
25 Prosecution. You should have roughly similar. You can have until 20
* Continued at:
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OR
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***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the
request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have
organized research to help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And
we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited
to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced
further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's
aggression and experts from Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell
what really happened and expose media lies. Moreover,
Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some friendly and
some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's
use of racism, violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the
Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts
and before the European Court, about which more
news soon. These efforts urgently require financial support. We now
maintain a small staff of Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a
non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we
have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and process evidence and for meetings with witnesses
and lawyers and as a base for organizing press
conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for
attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
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