International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART I
Because the transcript of the cross-examination is 150 pages long we
have broken it into 12 easy to read segments. If you wish to read the
whole thing at once go to: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
=================================
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Page 10614
1 Wednesday, 2 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
7 WITNESS: STJEPAN MESIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] How long a prison sentence did you serve in
11 Gradisce?
12 A. One year.
13 Q. You were there together with Petar Sale and another person in the
14 same cell; right?
15 A. Yes, in the same penitentiary, but we were not in the same room.
16 Q. And you know, later, that the state security service recorded
your
17 activities with the third person that you were with?
18 A. I don't know anything about that.
19 Q. Is it correct -- I mean, I imagine that you do know that at that
20 time you were monitored, taken care of, I don't know how to put it,
by
21 Milanko Orescanin, an operations officer of the state security
service?
22 A. This is the first time I hear that name.
23 Q. He worked at the state security service in Slavonski Brod?
24 A. This is the first time I hear that name, and in Slavonski Brod, I
25 was there only a few times in my life.
Page 10615
1 Q. Well, he had very detailed information about your activities
2 concerning that person. Tell me: Do you know anything about that?
3 Because there is evidence that after the HDZ victory, you were the
person
4 who gave instructions to have that operations officer killed, the
man from
5 Slavonski Brod, and he was liquidated on the 15th of August, 1991, a
6 religious holiday, Sunday.
7 Q. This is the first I ever hear of it. I never held any executive
8 positions and I had no influence whatsoever on anyone's liberty or
life.
9 Q. But there are persons, there are witnesses, Mr. Mesic, who
10 according to your instructions kidnapped that person, Mijokovic,
Milan
11 from Slavonski Brod and Jokic, Ivan from Slavonski Brod?
12 A. You're probably the one who is socialising with them. I have no
13 idea.
14 Q. Also according to your instructions, Momo Devrnja, a Serb from
15 Orahovac, a forwarder was liquidated, a man who had a conflict with
you.
16 I imagine you remember that?
17 A. Just as much influence as I had on Lincoln's assassination.
18 That's about it.
19 Q. On the 24th of December, Muselinovic, Miodrag with his wife
Milici
20 and neighbour Desanka Radonjic [phoen] was the chief of SUP in
Orahovac
21 and he was killed according to your instructions.
22 A. The same answer as for the previous one.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the question.
24 The speed is impossible to follow.
25 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to pause. The interpreters can't keep up
Page 10616
1 this pace. Now, you both speak the same language; therefore, it
would be
2 better if there was a pause between the question and answer. And also
3 after the answer. Mr. Milosevic, will you bear that in mind.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. According to your instructions, Serb villages Pusina, Kokocak,
6 Kraskovici [phoen], Brekoracani [phoen], Gornja Pistana, Slatinski
7 Drenovac were destroyed; is that correct or is that not correct?
8 A. That has nothing to do with actual facts. I found out about the
9 torching of these villages and I protested. I launched by protest
with
10 President Tudjman.
11 Q. With who?
12 A. With President Tudjman, and you had also socialised with him.
13 Q. You were involved in the Hefner affair in 1967, the one that had
14 to do with the selling of white slaves, and also you remember that
Tito
15 referred to an affair that you were involved in that had to do with
buying
16 machinery for the textile industry in Leskovac.
17 A. No. This is just a figment of someone's imagination.
18 Q. Is it correct that you were the main organiser of the affair that
19 had to do with military records, abolishing the security records
that were
20 kept? Need I remind you of why you did that?
21 A. This is no affair. This has to do with the following: The
22 National Defence authorities kept records about young men who were
23 supposed to go and do their military service. As president of the
24 municipality, I got information that Croats were not being
sufficiently
25 active in the army, that they did not enroll in military schools.
They
Page 10617
1 did not take up commissions and they did not go to military schools
in
2 general. I was surprised by the fact that it was only Serbs who were
3 applying. I realised that there was one particular item in
4 questionnaires, that is to say, item 32, and this was something that
was
5 filled by the officials of the Secretariats of National Defence and I
6 asked to see what was written there. Since a person involved
protested
7 because it said that his father -- his name is Slavko Sulovnjak. He
was
8 in the army. And in that questionnaire, it said that his father was
an
9 Ustasha from 1941 and that he was tried as a war criminal. However,
his
10 father had been a partisan. His father had retired as an non-
commissioned
11 officer of the Yugoslav People's Army. I asked for this to be looked
12 into. They did look into it and they established that for over 90
per
13 cent of Croatian young men, it said that they were children of
enemies,
14 and that therefore they could not attend such schools. Serb
children did
15 have passing grades, though, so to speak. That is what I know about
item
16 32.
17 Q. That's what the Croatian authorities wrote. It was not the Serb
18 authorities.
19 A. It was Serbs who were employed in the National Defence
20 authorities, and I can even give you names if you're really
interested.
21 Q. Are you trying to say that Croats were not employed in Croatia in
22 National Defence authorities?
23 A. It is only when I came to Orahovac as president of the
24 municipality, the first Croat became head of the Secretariat for
National
25 Defence.
Page 10618
1 Q. All right. Is it correct that while you were in prison, and this
2 Petar Sale, by the way, is a well-known chauvinist from Sibenik; is
that
3 right? While you were in prison, the officials of the state security
4 service of Croatia tried to employ your services for the rest of your
5 prison term?
6 A. Again this is a figment of your imagination. I did have a prison
7 sentence of two years and two months. This was the first-instance
court
8 that made that ruling. However, the Supreme Court reduced the
sentence to
9 one year and I served one year. I don't really see why anybody would
try
10 to enlist my services. This is again pure fantasy.
11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, remind us again: When was this prison
12 sentence? What years.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1975, from May 1975 until May
14 1976.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Is it correct that after that you worked for the state security
17 service of Croatia in the sector for internal enemies at that?
18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic.
19 The next question is: What was the sentence imposed for?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For participation in the Croatian
21 Spring. I was president of a municipality and I took part in the
Croatian
22 Spring, as it was called. I can also give you a list of all the
crimes
23 that I was accused of, if the Trial Chamber is interested in that.
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 10619
1 Q. When was this Croatian Spring?
2 A. One of the crimes was that I said: Let the devil get warm by our
3 Croatian fire but let him not extinguish the fire. At that time, a
4 topical question throughout Yugoslavia was the struggle for
constitutional
5 amendments. I said for all of those who wish to see democracy, there
is
6 place in the train leading to democracy. Every person who tries to
7 sidetrack that train by putting his foot in front of it can only
remain
8 without that foot. That's what I said.
9 I also said that the Croats tread their path to the Adriatic Sea
10 with their own sabres and all the rest followed in their footsteps.
These
11 are the crimes for which I was sentenced to two years, two months in
12 prison.
13 Q. Is it true that you worked then for the state security service of
14 Croatia in the department for internal enemies and that after that
you
15 started working for the state security service of the Yugoslav army?
16 A. The truth is that I asked for a passport. For 15 years I did not
17 have a passport. I asked for a passport to be issued to me as a free
18 citizen. I was refused a passport, and I lodged a complaint because
of
19 that. And I did that every year, a few times every year, as a
matter of
20 fact. That is more or less all the contact I had with the police.
All
21 the rest just pertains to the realm of fantasy.
22 Q. All right. You did not work for the state security service of
23 Croatia, you did not work for the counter-intelligence service of
the
24 army, I assume. And it is assumed that your relationship with
Spegelj
25 dates back to those days, that is to say, some other period of
time. Do
Page 10620
1 you know that Franjo Tudjman replaced Spegelj as well because it was
his
2 suspicion that he was an agent of the KOS and that is why he fled
across
3 the border with the assistance of Josip Manolic, former head of the
4 Croatian police, with a false passport issued in a false name?
5 A. This is pure fantasy and that can be proved by the following: In
6 order to get a job after prison, I applied at 150 different posts.
7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish. Yes. Let him finish.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question was different, and it
9 had to do with Spegelj.
10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish and give his explanation.
11 A. What is the logic? Why would I work for the state security
12 service and I could not find a job? And I applied at 150 different
13 places, and I did not get a job anywhere. What is the logic of
that? And
14 for 15 years I did not have a passport.
15 As for Spegelj, the situation was well known. At a meeting of the
16 Croatian political leadership, Spegelj presented a plan, which is
referred
17 to in Croatia as the Spegelj Plan. He proposed that warehouses be
seized
18 from the Yugoslav People's Army, where weapons were, depots with the
19 weapons of the Yugoslav People's Army, and not to touch military
barracks
20 but to take weapons. Since in these depots there were several
hundreds or
21 perhaps thousands of tanks, Spegelj said: If we take these weapons,
for
22 each tank we have people who are trained, who were in the army, and
if
23 Milosevic wants to move against Croatia, we have the resources to
meet
24 him. In this way, we are going to avoid a war, because the Yugoslav
army
25 is in disarray. However, if we go on waiting, the Yugoslav army will
Page 10621
1 consolidate itself, it's going to become a Serb army, and Milosevic
is
2 going for try to conquer Croatian territories with it. Tudjman
disagreed
3 with that. I was the only one who voted in favour of that proposal,
and
4 that is why General Spegelj left his post.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I see that you really have this hang-up about Milosevic. You
7 mentioned me in every other sentence you uttered yesterday. On the
basis
8 of what you said just now, Mr. Mesic, is that to show that you were
more
9 radical than Tudjman in your viewpoints that had to do with the war,
more
10 radical than Tudjman?
11 A. I'm really pleased that this question was put to me, because I
12 responded in one case how war can be averted; to take weapons from
the
13 hands of the army and to avoid the war. Because Croatia would have
14 something to meet Milosevic with if he were to attack. So this is a
case
15 about which I think I was right until the present day, and I think
that
16 General Spegelj was right too. Many lives would have been saved,
both of
17 Serbs and Croats, had it been that way.
18 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it clear to you, in connection with these
19 accusations levelled against Milosevic, and Milosevic's purported
command
20 over the army, what you said just now, that I really had -- had I
actually
21 had the possibility of commanding the army, Yugoslavia would not
have
22 fallen apart, there would not have been a civil war. Regrettably, I
did
23 not have that possibility, so what happened, happened. But please
answer
24 the following: You spoke about motives a few minutes ago. Motive
for a
25 cooperation with the state security service. Could your motive not
have
Page 10622
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10623
1 been to reduce your prison sentence from two years to one year? You
said
2 it yourself. Just like now, the motive for cooperation here is to
avoid
3 punishment and responsibility that is your due, since you are a
person --
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you know you have to ask questions here
5 and not make speeches. The witness has said that he did not cooperate
6 with the state security service, so there seems little point going on
7 about it. Your next question.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now that we're on the subject, that we're discussing such
11 questions: On the 24th of April -- on the 26th of April, 1994, you
stated
12 for Feral Tribune: There were quite a few murders in the case of
which
13 the perpetrators, though known, are not in prison yet. People know
who
14 killed Reihl-Kir and Saban Krivokuca, the Zec family. The murders
of the
15 Zec family said themselves that they raped the woman and her 12-
year-old
16 daughter and killed them. One of them is employed by the Ministry of
17 Defence. You know it's not easy to sit at the same table with a
person
18 whose bodyguard took a 12-year-old child, followed a bullet into
his head
19 and then threw him into the garbage. It is my understanding that it
has
20 become clear to the Croat people as well that things have happened
that
21 are leading us to an abyss. So that is your own statement, isn't
it? I
22 have quoted you correctly, I believe. My question is: The changes in
23 Croatia - you are now president of Croatia - is this fact --
24 JUDGE MAY: Let us first of all deal with the quotation which you
25 have attributed to the witness.
Page 10624
1 Mr. Mesic, that is a quotation from a paper in April 1994. Is the
2 quotation correct, and is there anything you want to say about it
before
3 we move on to another subject?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. I always struggled for the
5 rule of law, and I did assert that crimes had been committed, and
the rule
6 of law had to prevail. I am struggling for the rule of law now as
well.
7 I'm struggling for ascertaining individual guilt and responsibility,
8 because in that case, collective responsibility will be halted.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. All right. My question was: The changes in Croatia which have
11 taken place, and you have been elected president, has that led to
this
12 clearing up and settling of accounts with the killers that you
yourself
13 said were known, that their names were known, the people who did the
14 killings were known? Now, you, as head of the Croatian state now,
have
15 you succeeded in clearing all this up and bringing these people to
16 justice?
17 A. The people that you are talking about in this particular case are
18 undergoing trial in Croatia at the moment.
19 Q. You mean all the victims that you mentioned, or just some of
them?
20 A. The ones that we learnt about have been taken to trial, but none
21 of the cases have been completed, no files have been closed, and
22 investigations are under way and the perpetrators will be
prosecuted.
23 Q. Do you yourself feel responsible for what took place and for the
24 crimes that were committed while you yourself occupied the highest
posts
25 and offices in Croatia after Tudjman, that is to say, up until 1994?
* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-2.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of
Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to
help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated
legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining
Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the
defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from Yugoslavia
and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose media
lies. Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West,
some friendly and some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-
examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in
the ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the
European Court, about which more news soon. These efforts urgently
require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of Yugoslav
lawyers in Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We
need to expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-
Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we have
an office and office manager available at all times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM secure server so you can contribute directly on the
Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
ICDSM office, USA: 1 617 916-1705
SLOBODA (Freedom) Association office, Belgrade: 381 63 279 819
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART I
Because the transcript of the cross-examination is 150 pages long we
have broken it into 12 easy to read segments. If you wish to read the
whole thing at once go to: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
=================================
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
Page 10614
1 Wednesday, 2 October 2002
2 [Open session]
3 [The accused entered court]
4 [The witness entered court]
5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.
6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
7 WITNESS: STJEPAN MESIC [Resumed]
8 [Witness answered through interpreter]
9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:
10 Q. [Interpretation] How long a prison sentence did you serve in
11 Gradisce?
12 A. One year.
13 Q. You were there together with Petar Sale and another person in the
14 same cell; right?
15 A. Yes, in the same penitentiary, but we were not in the same room.
16 Q. And you know, later, that the state security service recorded
your
17 activities with the third person that you were with?
18 A. I don't know anything about that.
19 Q. Is it correct -- I mean, I imagine that you do know that at that
20 time you were monitored, taken care of, I don't know how to put it,
by
21 Milanko Orescanin, an operations officer of the state security
service?
22 A. This is the first time I hear that name.
23 Q. He worked at the state security service in Slavonski Brod?
24 A. This is the first time I hear that name, and in Slavonski Brod, I
25 was there only a few times in my life.
Page 10615
1 Q. Well, he had very detailed information about your activities
2 concerning that person. Tell me: Do you know anything about that?
3 Because there is evidence that after the HDZ victory, you were the
person
4 who gave instructions to have that operations officer killed, the
man from
5 Slavonski Brod, and he was liquidated on the 15th of August, 1991, a
6 religious holiday, Sunday.
7 Q. This is the first I ever hear of it. I never held any executive
8 positions and I had no influence whatsoever on anyone's liberty or
life.
9 Q. But there are persons, there are witnesses, Mr. Mesic, who
10 according to your instructions kidnapped that person, Mijokovic,
Milan
11 from Slavonski Brod and Jokic, Ivan from Slavonski Brod?
12 A. You're probably the one who is socialising with them. I have no
13 idea.
14 Q. Also according to your instructions, Momo Devrnja, a Serb from
15 Orahovac, a forwarder was liquidated, a man who had a conflict with
you.
16 I imagine you remember that?
17 A. Just as much influence as I had on Lincoln's assassination.
18 That's about it.
19 Q. On the 24th of December, Muselinovic, Miodrag with his wife
Milici
20 and neighbour Desanka Radonjic [phoen] was the chief of SUP in
Orahovac
21 and he was killed according to your instructions.
22 A. The same answer as for the previous one.
23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the question.
24 The speed is impossible to follow.
25 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to pause. The interpreters can't keep up
Page 10616
1 this pace. Now, you both speak the same language; therefore, it
would be
2 better if there was a pause between the question and answer. And also
3 after the answer. Mr. Milosevic, will you bear that in mind.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. According to your instructions, Serb villages Pusina, Kokocak,
6 Kraskovici [phoen], Brekoracani [phoen], Gornja Pistana, Slatinski
7 Drenovac were destroyed; is that correct or is that not correct?
8 A. That has nothing to do with actual facts. I found out about the
9 torching of these villages and I protested. I launched by protest
with
10 President Tudjman.
11 Q. With who?
12 A. With President Tudjman, and you had also socialised with him.
13 Q. You were involved in the Hefner affair in 1967, the one that had
14 to do with the selling of white slaves, and also you remember that
Tito
15 referred to an affair that you were involved in that had to do with
buying
16 machinery for the textile industry in Leskovac.
17 A. No. This is just a figment of someone's imagination.
18 Q. Is it correct that you were the main organiser of the affair that
19 had to do with military records, abolishing the security records
that were
20 kept? Need I remind you of why you did that?
21 A. This is no affair. This has to do with the following: The
22 National Defence authorities kept records about young men who were
23 supposed to go and do their military service. As president of the
24 municipality, I got information that Croats were not being
sufficiently
25 active in the army, that they did not enroll in military schools.
They
Page 10617
1 did not take up commissions and they did not go to military schools
in
2 general. I was surprised by the fact that it was only Serbs who were
3 applying. I realised that there was one particular item in
4 questionnaires, that is to say, item 32, and this was something that
was
5 filled by the officials of the Secretariats of National Defence and I
6 asked to see what was written there. Since a person involved
protested
7 because it said that his father -- his name is Slavko Sulovnjak. He
was
8 in the army. And in that questionnaire, it said that his father was
an
9 Ustasha from 1941 and that he was tried as a war criminal. However,
his
10 father had been a partisan. His father had retired as an non-
commissioned
11 officer of the Yugoslav People's Army. I asked for this to be looked
12 into. They did look into it and they established that for over 90
per
13 cent of Croatian young men, it said that they were children of
enemies,
14 and that therefore they could not attend such schools. Serb
children did
15 have passing grades, though, so to speak. That is what I know about
item
16 32.
17 Q. That's what the Croatian authorities wrote. It was not the Serb
18 authorities.
19 A. It was Serbs who were employed in the National Defence
20 authorities, and I can even give you names if you're really
interested.
21 Q. Are you trying to say that Croats were not employed in Croatia in
22 National Defence authorities?
23 A. It is only when I came to Orahovac as president of the
24 municipality, the first Croat became head of the Secretariat for
National
25 Defence.
Page 10618
1 Q. All right. Is it correct that while you were in prison, and this
2 Petar Sale, by the way, is a well-known chauvinist from Sibenik; is
that
3 right? While you were in prison, the officials of the state security
4 service of Croatia tried to employ your services for the rest of your
5 prison term?
6 A. Again this is a figment of your imagination. I did have a prison
7 sentence of two years and two months. This was the first-instance
court
8 that made that ruling. However, the Supreme Court reduced the
sentence to
9 one year and I served one year. I don't really see why anybody would
try
10 to enlist my services. This is again pure fantasy.
11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, remind us again: When was this prison
12 sentence? What years.
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1975, from May 1975 until May
14 1976.
15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
16 Q. Is it correct that after that you worked for the state security
17 service of Croatia in the sector for internal enemies at that?
18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic.
19 The next question is: What was the sentence imposed for?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For participation in the Croatian
21 Spring. I was president of a municipality and I took part in the
Croatian
22 Spring, as it was called. I can also give you a list of all the
crimes
23 that I was accused of, if the Trial Chamber is interested in that.
24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 10619
1 Q. When was this Croatian Spring?
2 A. One of the crimes was that I said: Let the devil get warm by our
3 Croatian fire but let him not extinguish the fire. At that time, a
4 topical question throughout Yugoslavia was the struggle for
constitutional
5 amendments. I said for all of those who wish to see democracy, there
is
6 place in the train leading to democracy. Every person who tries to
7 sidetrack that train by putting his foot in front of it can only
remain
8 without that foot. That's what I said.
9 I also said that the Croats tread their path to the Adriatic Sea
10 with their own sabres and all the rest followed in their footsteps.
These
11 are the crimes for which I was sentenced to two years, two months in
12 prison.
13 Q. Is it true that you worked then for the state security service of
14 Croatia in the department for internal enemies and that after that
you
15 started working for the state security service of the Yugoslav army?
16 A. The truth is that I asked for a passport. For 15 years I did not
17 have a passport. I asked for a passport to be issued to me as a free
18 citizen. I was refused a passport, and I lodged a complaint because
of
19 that. And I did that every year, a few times every year, as a
matter of
20 fact. That is more or less all the contact I had with the police.
All
21 the rest just pertains to the realm of fantasy.
22 Q. All right. You did not work for the state security service of
23 Croatia, you did not work for the counter-intelligence service of
the
24 army, I assume. And it is assumed that your relationship with
Spegelj
25 dates back to those days, that is to say, some other period of
time. Do
Page 10620
1 you know that Franjo Tudjman replaced Spegelj as well because it was
his
2 suspicion that he was an agent of the KOS and that is why he fled
across
3 the border with the assistance of Josip Manolic, former head of the
4 Croatian police, with a false passport issued in a false name?
5 A. This is pure fantasy and that can be proved by the following: In
6 order to get a job after prison, I applied at 150 different posts.
7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish. Yes. Let him finish.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question was different, and it
9 had to do with Spegelj.
10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish and give his explanation.
11 A. What is the logic? Why would I work for the state security
12 service and I could not find a job? And I applied at 150 different
13 places, and I did not get a job anywhere. What is the logic of
that? And
14 for 15 years I did not have a passport.
15 As for Spegelj, the situation was well known. At a meeting of the
16 Croatian political leadership, Spegelj presented a plan, which is
referred
17 to in Croatia as the Spegelj Plan. He proposed that warehouses be
seized
18 from the Yugoslav People's Army, where weapons were, depots with the
19 weapons of the Yugoslav People's Army, and not to touch military
barracks
20 but to take weapons. Since in these depots there were several
hundreds or
21 perhaps thousands of tanks, Spegelj said: If we take these weapons,
for
22 each tank we have people who are trained, who were in the army, and
if
23 Milosevic wants to move against Croatia, we have the resources to
meet
24 him. In this way, we are going to avoid a war, because the Yugoslav
army
25 is in disarray. However, if we go on waiting, the Yugoslav army will
Page 10621
1 consolidate itself, it's going to become a Serb army, and Milosevic
is
2 going for try to conquer Croatian territories with it. Tudjman
disagreed
3 with that. I was the only one who voted in favour of that proposal,
and
4 that is why General Spegelj left his post.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I see that you really have this hang-up about Milosevic. You
7 mentioned me in every other sentence you uttered yesterday. On the
basis
8 of what you said just now, Mr. Mesic, is that to show that you were
more
9 radical than Tudjman in your viewpoints that had to do with the war,
more
10 radical than Tudjman?
11 A. I'm really pleased that this question was put to me, because I
12 responded in one case how war can be averted; to take weapons from
the
13 hands of the army and to avoid the war. Because Croatia would have
14 something to meet Milosevic with if he were to attack. So this is a
case
15 about which I think I was right until the present day, and I think
that
16 General Spegelj was right too. Many lives would have been saved,
both of
17 Serbs and Croats, had it been that way.
18 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it clear to you, in connection with these
19 accusations levelled against Milosevic, and Milosevic's purported
command
20 over the army, what you said just now, that I really had -- had I
actually
21 had the possibility of commanding the army, Yugoslavia would not
have
22 fallen apart, there would not have been a civil war. Regrettably, I
did
23 not have that possibility, so what happened, happened. But please
answer
24 the following: You spoke about motives a few minutes ago. Motive
for a
25 cooperation with the state security service. Could your motive not
have
Page 10622
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10623
1 been to reduce your prison sentence from two years to one year? You
said
2 it yourself. Just like now, the motive for cooperation here is to
avoid
3 punishment and responsibility that is your due, since you are a
person --
4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you know you have to ask questions here
5 and not make speeches. The witness has said that he did not cooperate
6 with the state security service, so there seems little point going on
7 about it. Your next question.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. Now that we're on the subject, that we're discussing such
11 questions: On the 24th of April -- on the 26th of April, 1994, you
stated
12 for Feral Tribune: There were quite a few murders in the case of
which
13 the perpetrators, though known, are not in prison yet. People know
who
14 killed Reihl-Kir and Saban Krivokuca, the Zec family. The murders
of the
15 Zec family said themselves that they raped the woman and her 12-
year-old
16 daughter and killed them. One of them is employed by the Ministry of
17 Defence. You know it's not easy to sit at the same table with a
person
18 whose bodyguard took a 12-year-old child, followed a bullet into
his head
19 and then threw him into the garbage. It is my understanding that it
has
20 become clear to the Croat people as well that things have happened
that
21 are leading us to an abyss. So that is your own statement, isn't
it? I
22 have quoted you correctly, I believe. My question is: The changes in
23 Croatia - you are now president of Croatia - is this fact --
24 JUDGE MAY: Let us first of all deal with the quotation which you
25 have attributed to the witness.
Page 10624
1 Mr. Mesic, that is a quotation from a paper in April 1994. Is the
2 quotation correct, and is there anything you want to say about it
before
3 we move on to another subject?
4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. I always struggled for the
5 rule of law, and I did assert that crimes had been committed, and
the rule
6 of law had to prevail. I am struggling for the rule of law now as
well.
7 I'm struggling for ascertaining individual guilt and responsibility,
8 because in that case, collective responsibility will be halted.
9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
10 Q. All right. My question was: The changes in Croatia which have
11 taken place, and you have been elected president, has that led to
this
12 clearing up and settling of accounts with the killers that you
yourself
13 said were known, that their names were known, the people who did the
14 killings were known? Now, you, as head of the Croatian state now,
have
15 you succeeded in clearing all this up and bringing these people to
16 justice?
17 A. The people that you are talking about in this particular case are
18 undergoing trial in Croatia at the moment.
19 Q. You mean all the victims that you mentioned, or just some of
them?
20 A. The ones that we learnt about have been taken to trial, but none
21 of the cases have been completed, no files have been closed, and
22 investigations are under way and the perpetrators will be
prosecuted.
23 Q. Do you yourself feel responsible for what took place and for the
24 crimes that were committed while you yourself occupied the highest
posts
25 and offices in Croatia after Tudjman, that is to say, up until 1994?
* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-2.htm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
---------
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of
Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to
help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated
legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining
Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the
defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from Yugoslavia
and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose media
lies. Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West,
some friendly and some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-
examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in
the ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the
European Court, about which more news soon. These efforts urgently
require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of Yugoslav
lawyers in Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We
need to expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-
Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we have
an office and office manager available at all times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
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