International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART VIII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12 easy
to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10691
1 minutes before the end, and that means 20 minutes to 2.00, and that
is to
2 allow the amicus some time and also time for some re-examination.
I'm
3 afraid both of those will necessarily have to be curtailed.
4 Yes, let's move on. You've heard the points that have been made
5 about Bosnia and the events there in 1992 and 1993.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Tell me, please: You were the president of parliament and
8 presided over a meeting on the 24th of September, 1992, at which the
9 deputy public prosecutor in Gospic Djoko Kalanj was relieved of
duty, and
10 you also knew that Kalanj was killed already in October 1991. You
11 relieved him of duty then because he didn't turn up for work,
although he
12 had actually been killed 11 months before in the crimes that had
taken
13 place and that are well known. Is that right, Mr. Mesic?
14 A. I think this is notorious insinuation. Neither did I know that
15 Mr. Kalanj had been killed, nor did I know what had happened to him
at
16 all. As president of the Sabor, I received a proposal from the
committee
17 to nominate and relieve of duty members of parliament, and I put
the
18 proposal to the vote. I later learnt that that particular
individual had
19 in fact been killed.
20 Q. So he was killed first by those authorities of yours and then he
21 was relieved of duty for not turning up to work in the morning. Is
that a
22 material fact, regardless of your knowledge or awareness or
whatever?
23 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered the question. Move on to
24 something else.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 10692
1 Q. Yesterday you were saying that Josip Tito was an integral factor,
2 but already in 1971, you worked towards the downfall of Yugoslavia
when
3 the integral factor lead Yugoslavia and he was a Croat to boot.
Isn't
4 that so?
5 A. Once again, this is notorious insinuation. My positions were one
6 thing. Croatia was not on a footing of equality because it was not
able
7 to handle the foreign currency that it earned. So we didn't have
clean
8 bills and arithmetic. And what I took part in was in financial
fairness
9 with respect to Croatia and Yugoslavia and to clear up the accounts.
Now,
10 what I was taken to task for, I talked about yesterday. I still
consider
11 that Tito, with his charisma, was an integral factor. He was a
politician
12 who stood at the head of Yugoslavia at the time when Yugoslavia
played a
13 positive role, that is to say during the conflict between East and
West.
14 He created the non-align movement with others, and that was a
positive
15 factor, and that was why many people in the world were very
sentimentally
16 well disposed towards Yugoslavia. And the accused knew that full
well,
17 and that is why he said he was fighting for Yugoslavia at a time
when he
18 was using all the resources at his disposal to ensure its
breakdown. And
19 I was not tried because I jeopardised or in any other way
threatened or
20 claimed that Tito was not a factor of integration. Yes, he was, but
he
21 had left the world arena. He was a product of his time. He was a
22 communist. He was a Bolshevik. All that is true and correct.
23 Q. Mr. Mesic, as we are talking about the atmosphere that prevailed
24 and you say that it was Belgrade that stirred up the Serbs, is it
true
25 that in 1990, in February, at Vatroslav Lisinski hall in Zagreb at
the HDZ
Page 10693
1 rally, 32 Ustasha émigrés from a number of countries in the world
attended
2 that rally and meeting? I hope that is not being challenged.
3 A. When the first congress of the Croatian Democratic Union was
being
4 prepared, talks were held between the HDZ leadership and the then
5 Secretary for Internal Affairs, or rather, the Minister of the
Interior of
6 the Socialist Republic of Croatia. We discussed with him this matter
and
7 ascertained that some people would be coming who perhaps could be
held
8 responsible for breaking the law. What was said was that everybody
could
9 come who had not been tried as a war criminal, that they would be
able to
10 come freely, to come and go, that they would be given free passage
and
11 would not be prosecuted if they were not in fact war criminals.
That was
12 the agreement that was reached.
13 Q. And do you know that, quite contrary to that Croatian extreme
14 nationalism, that the Serbs in Croatia at those first elections
came out
15 in vast majority in favour of the League of Communists of Croatia
led by
16 Racan and not for some kind of Serb party or any idea from Belgrade
or
17 policy put forward from Belgrade? Do you know that 21 members of
18 parliament in the Sabor, that they had them -- that they were on
the list
19 of the League of Communists of Croatia? Do you know about those 21,
that
20 they were Serbs?
21 A. The SDP went to the elections, the party for democratic change,
22 and not the Communist Party. Many Serbs were elected, that's true.
I
23 don't know their exact number. Some of them were on the SDP
democratic
24 change party list, others were elected from amongst the other
parties, as
25 well as the SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party. So they were members
of
Page 10694
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10695
1 the Croatian parliament.
2 Q. My question to you was --
3 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn. You can ask the question after the
4 adjournment. Twenty minutes, please.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Very well. Is it clear that the very fact that in all the areas
9 inhabited by Serbs, 90 per cent of them were in favour of Racan's
party,
10 in which the Croats were in the majority, that this shows that they
were
11 in favour of a federal Yugoslavia and that they wanted to remain a
state
12 building and constituent nation in Croatia? Is that correct or not?
13 A. At the referendum at which the citizens of Croatia voted on
14 whether they wanted an independent Croatia or to remain in
Yugoslavia,
15 94.17 per cent voted in favour of independence. Among them were
Serbians.
16 Q. Does that show that the issue is something else and that the
HDZ,
17 which won the elections with extreme nationalist views, was a clear
18 message to the Serbs as to what awaited them?
19 A. I have already said that some messages were unacceptable, but
20 there was no reason for Serbs to fear. Excesses started when
emissaries
21 arrived from Serbia and when the leadership in the municipalities
where
22 the majority Serb population said that they were in fact ostensibly
in
23 favour of Yugoslavia but they were in fact in favour of the
creation of a
24 greater Serbia. They had been deceived and manipulated, because in
the
25 end the programme, the plan to create a greater Serbia failed.
Page 10696
1 Q. You know there was no such plan, but who actually contributed to
2 the anxiety of the Serbs and to their concerns? I think that without
3 doubt, you are one of those mostly responsible for that. For
example, in
4 the summer of 1990, on the occasion of your visit to Gospic, you
said, I
5 quote: "The Serbs from Croatia, while they are ploughing Croatian
land,
6 pray to God that rain might fall in Serbia. Lets the Serbs go to
Serbia
7 but take with them only as much land as they brought when they
arrived on
8 the soles of their shoes."
9 Is that what you said, Mr. Mesic?
10 A. I'm not interested in what you think of me and what I do. That
is
11 completely immaterial to me. The quotation is incorrect. The
accused put
12 together two things that I said. What I said was, first, that
Croats --
13 that Serbs in Croatian should not plough land in Croatia while
praying to
14 God that it might rain in Serbia. This was my response to those who
wrote
15 graffiti on walls in Croatia saying this was Serbia. It was not
Serbia.
16 It was Croatia, and that's what I wanted them to know. I wanted
them to
17 know that they could not engage in implementing such a policy.
18 The second thing I said was that when Serbs arrived in Croatia,
19 they were not carrying Serb land on their shoes to transform
Croatian soil
20 into Serbian soil. I wasn't saying anything about what they should
take
21 away with them. What I said was that they had not brought Serbia
with
22 them on their shoes. Just as the Croats who went to live in
Austria, in
23 Burgenland, did not take Croatia with them on the soles of their
shoes.
24 They took it with them in their hearts. But they are loyal citizens
of
25 the Republic of Austria, although they are aware of their ethnic
origins,
Page 10697
1 their Croatian origins. So my message to the Serbs was that Croatia
was
2 their homeland, that they can love their former country, but that
they
3 should be loyal citizens of the Republic of Croatia. In fact, my
message
4 to them was that we wanted them in Croatia, not that they should
leave
5 Croatia.
6 Q. Do you think that the Serbs in Croatia cannot be compared to my
7 grant workers in Austria? The Serbs lived in Croatia on their own
land
8 for several centuries. They did not arrive there as migrant workers.
9 Q. I think the accused misunderstood me or at least pretends to have
10 misunderstood me. Several centuries ago Croats emigrated from
Croatia to
11 Burgenland. They were aware of their Croatian origins but they are
loyal
12 citizens of the Republic of Austria. They have their
municipalities,
13 territories. They are protected by legislation of the Republic of
Austria
14 as a national minority. This was my message to Serbs, that they
should be
15 loyal citizens of the Republic of Croatia and not listen to the
emissaries
16 of Slobodan Milosevic.
17 Q. Very well, Mr. Mesic, but at the pre-election rally that was
held
18 in Gospic on the 2nd of March, 1990, which was attended by about
15.000
19 Croats, and because it was raining, many of them were carrying
umbrellas,
20 you said there: When we Croats establish our own state, all the
Serbs in
21 it will fit under a single umbrella. This rally was held on Nikola
Tesla
22 Square in Gospic. Is this correct, Mr. Mesic, or not?
23 A. No, it is not correct. I don't know who attributed these words
to
24 me.
25 Q. I don't have time to prove this because my time is limited.
Page 10698
1 A. You will never be able to prove it.
2 Q. I will prove it, just as I will prove that you worked for the
3 military counter-intelligence service and many other things that you
4 denied here?
5 JUDGE MAY: That's all comment.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In Slovenian TV show on the 8th of November, 1995, on a private
8 television station, you said that Mr. Genscher and Pope John Paul
the
9 second, with the support they gave to the break-up of Yugoslavia,
10 contributed the most to the break-up of this country. You said: I
wanted
11 to transmit the idea of the collapse of Yugoslavia to those who
could
12 influence its fate the most, Genscher and the pope. Genscher made
it
13 possible for me to contact the Holy See and they agreed to the
total
14 break-up of Yugoslavia. Is this correct or not?
15 A. First of all, I would like to ask the accused not to make me
16 laugh, because this is a place where we should be serious. I never
spoke
17 about this. I never spoke of Croatia or Slovenia breaking up
Yugoslavia.
18 It was Slobodan Milosevic and his regime who are working for that.
I was
19 speaking of independence. When Yugoslavia lost its integrating
factors,
20 when it became quite clear that the executive council, the Supreme
Court,
21 the Presidency of Yugoslavia, the constitutional court, had become
22 blocked, that no institutions were functioning, it was quite clear
that
23 such a federation, such as it was, was untenable. And when it
became
24 quite clear that Croatia had to seek a way out, and this way out
could
25 only be in independence, we had to look to those who would support
our
Page 10699
1 right to independence.
2 Q. Mr. Mesic, at a press conference in Belgrade, in the press
centre,
3 in December 1990, you said that there were no misunderstandings in
4 Yugoslavia since the HDZ, or rather, that these misunderstandings
did not
5 begin when the HDZ came to power in 1990 but that they started, in
fact,
6 in 1918. Do you remember this?
7 A. Yes, I remember that very well. The misunderstandings did not
8 arise when the HDZ came to power. The misunderstandings date further
9 back. If necessary, I can explain that. The Austro-Hungarian
monarchy
10 could not be preserved according to the same model in which it had
11 existed. The Austrian emperor, Franz Josef did not understand what
was
12 going on on the territory of this great empire. Franz Ferdinand
thought
13 that on the territory of the former empire, a personal union should
be
14 established, just modelled on the commonwealth, so that parts of
the
15 Austro-Hungarian monarchy should become independent and that a
personal
16 union should be established. This was the threat to greater Serbian
17 policy which existed then, because they knew that the ambitions to
break
18 up Bosnia and Herzegovina would no longer exist if this came to be.
19 Because from Garasanin onward, greater Serbian policy wanted Serbia
to
20 expand across the River Drina. If the peoples and the states on the
21 territory of the empire became independent, Serbia would no longer
be able
22 to expand its borders across the River Drina. That is why the
23 organisation called "the Black Hand" decided to assassinate Franz
24 Ferdinand in Sarajevo.
25 JUDGE MAY: I think we've probably exhausted that topic in 1918.
Page 10700
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is it clear, Mr. Mesic, from what you said - and here I include
3 your presence in Siroki Brijeg in Bosnia and Herzegovina, for those
who
4 don't know where Siroki Brijeg is - where the Croatian historical
rights
5 in Bosnia were put forward, Boban and you and most other
participants
6 advocated this, and it was only Kljujic who advocated Bosnia as a
whole,
7 as an entity, which is why he was replaced. Is that true or not?
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've already dealt with Mr Kljujic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. But when you parted ways with Tudjman - while you were
12 implementing this policy, you advocated the same views - you said
that
13 Croatia was a twilight zone, that it was approaching the model of
Paraguay
14 that it was a risk zone, and that the rules that applied there were
--
15 A. I have to explain again. I said that Croatia -- in Croatia the
16 rule of law did not apply, that there were abuses, that there were
crimes,
17 that tycoons appeared who were destroying the Croatian economy,
which is
18 why I parted ways with that policy. I demanded that Croatia
function as a
19 state in which the rule of law applied, and I demanded that Nazi
and
20 fascist symbols which here and there appeared in Croatia should be
done
21 away with. Today, Croatia is discussing a law, a bill, in
parliament on
22 banning Nazi symbols and punishing those who put forward such
symbols in
23 the future.
24 Q. Very well, Mr. Mesic. Are you claiming that you yourself did not
25 personally contribute to the development of this fascist climate
towards
Page 10701
1 the Serbs when you were one of the top leaders of the HDZ? Later on
you
2 call this a twilight zone, but did you contribute to its creation or
not?
3 Do you consider yourself responsible, co-responsible, for the
creation of
4 this twilight zone and the expulsion of the Serbs from Croatia?
5 A. I think that this is entirely wrong. I was an anti-fascist from
6 my youth. My whole family was on the Partizan side. Not a single
member
7 of my family was on the other side. Eleven members of my family were
8 killed fighting on the anti-fascist side. I am a convinced
anti-fascist,
9 and I find all this distasteful.
10 Q. Is it correct, then, that you criticised Tudjman for signing the
11 Vance-Owen Plan when representatives of the UN were deployed in the
12 territories where there was a conflict - these were the
UN-protected
13 areas - and you criticised him because Croats could not enter the
Krajina
14 until a political solution was found? Is this correct or not?
15 A. I criticised many decisions made by President Tudjman and
16 supported others, depending on the point in time. When Tudjman
suggested
17 that a referendum on Croatian independence be held, I felt that the
18 elections had been enough for citizens of Croatia to show what they
19 wanted. I thought it was enough. But Tudjman said: No. Let's have a
20 referendum.
21 I opposed the referendum, but later on I saw that in that
22 case Tudjman had been right. Sometimes I supported Tudjman,
sometimes I
23 did not. But I cannot discuss now every instance where I supported
him or
24 not, because I think this is of no interest to this Tribunal.
25 Q. In agreement with Tudjman, when you, the prime minister, you
* Continued at: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-9.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of
Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to
help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated
legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining
Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the
defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of
racism, violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the European Court, about
which more news soon. These efforts urgently require financial
support. We now maintain a small staff of Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav
attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we have an
office and office manager available at all times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
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For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
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=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART VIII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12 easy
to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10691
1 minutes before the end, and that means 20 minutes to 2.00, and that
is to
2 allow the amicus some time and also time for some re-examination.
I'm
3 afraid both of those will necessarily have to be curtailed.
4 Yes, let's move on. You've heard the points that have been made
5 about Bosnia and the events there in 1992 and 1993.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. Tell me, please: You were the president of parliament and
8 presided over a meeting on the 24th of September, 1992, at which the
9 deputy public prosecutor in Gospic Djoko Kalanj was relieved of
duty, and
10 you also knew that Kalanj was killed already in October 1991. You
11 relieved him of duty then because he didn't turn up for work,
although he
12 had actually been killed 11 months before in the crimes that had
taken
13 place and that are well known. Is that right, Mr. Mesic?
14 A. I think this is notorious insinuation. Neither did I know that
15 Mr. Kalanj had been killed, nor did I know what had happened to him
at
16 all. As president of the Sabor, I received a proposal from the
committee
17 to nominate and relieve of duty members of parliament, and I put
the
18 proposal to the vote. I later learnt that that particular
individual had
19 in fact been killed.
20 Q. So he was killed first by those authorities of yours and then he
21 was relieved of duty for not turning up to work in the morning. Is
that a
22 material fact, regardless of your knowledge or awareness or
whatever?
23 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered the question. Move on to
24 something else.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 10692
1 Q. Yesterday you were saying that Josip Tito was an integral factor,
2 but already in 1971, you worked towards the downfall of Yugoslavia
when
3 the integral factor lead Yugoslavia and he was a Croat to boot.
Isn't
4 that so?
5 A. Once again, this is notorious insinuation. My positions were one
6 thing. Croatia was not on a footing of equality because it was not
able
7 to handle the foreign currency that it earned. So we didn't have
clean
8 bills and arithmetic. And what I took part in was in financial
fairness
9 with respect to Croatia and Yugoslavia and to clear up the accounts.
Now,
10 what I was taken to task for, I talked about yesterday. I still
consider
11 that Tito, with his charisma, was an integral factor. He was a
politician
12 who stood at the head of Yugoslavia at the time when Yugoslavia
played a
13 positive role, that is to say during the conflict between East and
West.
14 He created the non-align movement with others, and that was a
positive
15 factor, and that was why many people in the world were very
sentimentally
16 well disposed towards Yugoslavia. And the accused knew that full
well,
17 and that is why he said he was fighting for Yugoslavia at a time
when he
18 was using all the resources at his disposal to ensure its
breakdown. And
19 I was not tried because I jeopardised or in any other way
threatened or
20 claimed that Tito was not a factor of integration. Yes, he was, but
he
21 had left the world arena. He was a product of his time. He was a
22 communist. He was a Bolshevik. All that is true and correct.
23 Q. Mr. Mesic, as we are talking about the atmosphere that prevailed
24 and you say that it was Belgrade that stirred up the Serbs, is it
true
25 that in 1990, in February, at Vatroslav Lisinski hall in Zagreb at
the HDZ
Page 10693
1 rally, 32 Ustasha émigrés from a number of countries in the world
attended
2 that rally and meeting? I hope that is not being challenged.
3 A. When the first congress of the Croatian Democratic Union was
being
4 prepared, talks were held between the HDZ leadership and the then
5 Secretary for Internal Affairs, or rather, the Minister of the
Interior of
6 the Socialist Republic of Croatia. We discussed with him this matter
and
7 ascertained that some people would be coming who perhaps could be
held
8 responsible for breaking the law. What was said was that everybody
could
9 come who had not been tried as a war criminal, that they would be
able to
10 come freely, to come and go, that they would be given free passage
and
11 would not be prosecuted if they were not in fact war criminals.
That was
12 the agreement that was reached.
13 Q. And do you know that, quite contrary to that Croatian extreme
14 nationalism, that the Serbs in Croatia at those first elections
came out
15 in vast majority in favour of the League of Communists of Croatia
led by
16 Racan and not for some kind of Serb party or any idea from Belgrade
or
17 policy put forward from Belgrade? Do you know that 21 members of
18 parliament in the Sabor, that they had them -- that they were on
the list
19 of the League of Communists of Croatia? Do you know about those 21,
that
20 they were Serbs?
21 A. The SDP went to the elections, the party for democratic change,
22 and not the Communist Party. Many Serbs were elected, that's true.
I
23 don't know their exact number. Some of them were on the SDP
democratic
24 change party list, others were elected from amongst the other
parties, as
25 well as the SDS, the Serbian Democratic Party. So they were members
of
Page 10694
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10695
1 the Croatian parliament.
2 Q. My question to you was --
3 JUDGE MAY: We'll adjourn. You can ask the question after the
4 adjournment. Twenty minutes, please.
5 --- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
6 --- On resuming at 12.38 p.m.
7 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
8 Q. Very well. Is it clear that the very fact that in all the areas
9 inhabited by Serbs, 90 per cent of them were in favour of Racan's
party,
10 in which the Croats were in the majority, that this shows that they
were
11 in favour of a federal Yugoslavia and that they wanted to remain a
state
12 building and constituent nation in Croatia? Is that correct or not?
13 A. At the referendum at which the citizens of Croatia voted on
14 whether they wanted an independent Croatia or to remain in
Yugoslavia,
15 94.17 per cent voted in favour of independence. Among them were
Serbians.
16 Q. Does that show that the issue is something else and that the
HDZ,
17 which won the elections with extreme nationalist views, was a clear
18 message to the Serbs as to what awaited them?
19 A. I have already said that some messages were unacceptable, but
20 there was no reason for Serbs to fear. Excesses started when
emissaries
21 arrived from Serbia and when the leadership in the municipalities
where
22 the majority Serb population said that they were in fact ostensibly
in
23 favour of Yugoslavia but they were in fact in favour of the
creation of a
24 greater Serbia. They had been deceived and manipulated, because in
the
25 end the programme, the plan to create a greater Serbia failed.
Page 10696
1 Q. You know there was no such plan, but who actually contributed to
2 the anxiety of the Serbs and to their concerns? I think that without
3 doubt, you are one of those mostly responsible for that. For
example, in
4 the summer of 1990, on the occasion of your visit to Gospic, you
said, I
5 quote: "The Serbs from Croatia, while they are ploughing Croatian
land,
6 pray to God that rain might fall in Serbia. Lets the Serbs go to
Serbia
7 but take with them only as much land as they brought when they
arrived on
8 the soles of their shoes."
9 Is that what you said, Mr. Mesic?
10 A. I'm not interested in what you think of me and what I do. That
is
11 completely immaterial to me. The quotation is incorrect. The
accused put
12 together two things that I said. What I said was, first, that
Croats --
13 that Serbs in Croatian should not plough land in Croatia while
praying to
14 God that it might rain in Serbia. This was my response to those who
wrote
15 graffiti on walls in Croatia saying this was Serbia. It was not
Serbia.
16 It was Croatia, and that's what I wanted them to know. I wanted
them to
17 know that they could not engage in implementing such a policy.
18 The second thing I said was that when Serbs arrived in Croatia,
19 they were not carrying Serb land on their shoes to transform
Croatian soil
20 into Serbian soil. I wasn't saying anything about what they should
take
21 away with them. What I said was that they had not brought Serbia
with
22 them on their shoes. Just as the Croats who went to live in
Austria, in
23 Burgenland, did not take Croatia with them on the soles of their
shoes.
24 They took it with them in their hearts. But they are loyal citizens
of
25 the Republic of Austria, although they are aware of their ethnic
origins,
Page 10697
1 their Croatian origins. So my message to the Serbs was that Croatia
was
2 their homeland, that they can love their former country, but that
they
3 should be loyal citizens of the Republic of Croatia. In fact, my
message
4 to them was that we wanted them in Croatia, not that they should
leave
5 Croatia.
6 Q. Do you think that the Serbs in Croatia cannot be compared to my
7 grant workers in Austria? The Serbs lived in Croatia on their own
land
8 for several centuries. They did not arrive there as migrant workers.
9 Q. I think the accused misunderstood me or at least pretends to have
10 misunderstood me. Several centuries ago Croats emigrated from
Croatia to
11 Burgenland. They were aware of their Croatian origins but they are
loyal
12 citizens of the Republic of Austria. They have their
municipalities,
13 territories. They are protected by legislation of the Republic of
Austria
14 as a national minority. This was my message to Serbs, that they
should be
15 loyal citizens of the Republic of Croatia and not listen to the
emissaries
16 of Slobodan Milosevic.
17 Q. Very well, Mr. Mesic, but at the pre-election rally that was
held
18 in Gospic on the 2nd of March, 1990, which was attended by about
15.000
19 Croats, and because it was raining, many of them were carrying
umbrellas,
20 you said there: When we Croats establish our own state, all the
Serbs in
21 it will fit under a single umbrella. This rally was held on Nikola
Tesla
22 Square in Gospic. Is this correct, Mr. Mesic, or not?
23 A. No, it is not correct. I don't know who attributed these words
to
24 me.
25 Q. I don't have time to prove this because my time is limited.
Page 10698
1 A. You will never be able to prove it.
2 Q. I will prove it, just as I will prove that you worked for the
3 military counter-intelligence service and many other things that you
4 denied here?
5 JUDGE MAY: That's all comment.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. In Slovenian TV show on the 8th of November, 1995, on a private
8 television station, you said that Mr. Genscher and Pope John Paul
the
9 second, with the support they gave to the break-up of Yugoslavia,
10 contributed the most to the break-up of this country. You said: I
wanted
11 to transmit the idea of the collapse of Yugoslavia to those who
could
12 influence its fate the most, Genscher and the pope. Genscher made
it
13 possible for me to contact the Holy See and they agreed to the
total
14 break-up of Yugoslavia. Is this correct or not?
15 A. First of all, I would like to ask the accused not to make me
16 laugh, because this is a place where we should be serious. I never
spoke
17 about this. I never spoke of Croatia or Slovenia breaking up
Yugoslavia.
18 It was Slobodan Milosevic and his regime who are working for that.
I was
19 speaking of independence. When Yugoslavia lost its integrating
factors,
20 when it became quite clear that the executive council, the Supreme
Court,
21 the Presidency of Yugoslavia, the constitutional court, had become
22 blocked, that no institutions were functioning, it was quite clear
that
23 such a federation, such as it was, was untenable. And when it
became
24 quite clear that Croatia had to seek a way out, and this way out
could
25 only be in independence, we had to look to those who would support
our
Page 10699
1 right to independence.
2 Q. Mr. Mesic, at a press conference in Belgrade, in the press
centre,
3 in December 1990, you said that there were no misunderstandings in
4 Yugoslavia since the HDZ, or rather, that these misunderstandings
did not
5 begin when the HDZ came to power in 1990 but that they started, in
fact,
6 in 1918. Do you remember this?
7 A. Yes, I remember that very well. The misunderstandings did not
8 arise when the HDZ came to power. The misunderstandings date further
9 back. If necessary, I can explain that. The Austro-Hungarian
monarchy
10 could not be preserved according to the same model in which it had
11 existed. The Austrian emperor, Franz Josef did not understand what
was
12 going on on the territory of this great empire. Franz Ferdinand
thought
13 that on the territory of the former empire, a personal union should
be
14 established, just modelled on the commonwealth, so that parts of
the
15 Austro-Hungarian monarchy should become independent and that a
personal
16 union should be established. This was the threat to greater Serbian
17 policy which existed then, because they knew that the ambitions to
break
18 up Bosnia and Herzegovina would no longer exist if this came to be.
19 Because from Garasanin onward, greater Serbian policy wanted Serbia
to
20 expand across the River Drina. If the peoples and the states on the
21 territory of the empire became independent, Serbia would no longer
be able
22 to expand its borders across the River Drina. That is why the
23 organisation called "the Black Hand" decided to assassinate Franz
24 Ferdinand in Sarajevo.
25 JUDGE MAY: I think we've probably exhausted that topic in 1918.
Page 10700
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Is it clear, Mr. Mesic, from what you said - and here I include
3 your presence in Siroki Brijeg in Bosnia and Herzegovina, for those
who
4 don't know where Siroki Brijeg is - where the Croatian historical
rights
5 in Bosnia were put forward, Boban and you and most other
participants
6 advocated this, and it was only Kljujic who advocated Bosnia as a
whole,
7 as an entity, which is why he was replaced. Is that true or not?
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we've already dealt with Mr Kljujic.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
10 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
11 Q. But when you parted ways with Tudjman - while you were
12 implementing this policy, you advocated the same views - you said
that
13 Croatia was a twilight zone, that it was approaching the model of
Paraguay
14 that it was a risk zone, and that the rules that applied there were
--
15 A. I have to explain again. I said that Croatia -- in Croatia the
16 rule of law did not apply, that there were abuses, that there were
crimes,
17 that tycoons appeared who were destroying the Croatian economy,
which is
18 why I parted ways with that policy. I demanded that Croatia
function as a
19 state in which the rule of law applied, and I demanded that Nazi
and
20 fascist symbols which here and there appeared in Croatia should be
done
21 away with. Today, Croatia is discussing a law, a bill, in
parliament on
22 banning Nazi symbols and punishing those who put forward such
symbols in
23 the future.
24 Q. Very well, Mr. Mesic. Are you claiming that you yourself did not
25 personally contribute to the development of this fascist climate
towards
Page 10701
1 the Serbs when you were one of the top leaders of the HDZ? Later on
you
2 call this a twilight zone, but did you contribute to its creation or
not?
3 Do you consider yourself responsible, co-responsible, for the
creation of
4 this twilight zone and the expulsion of the Serbs from Croatia?
5 A. I think that this is entirely wrong. I was an anti-fascist from
6 my youth. My whole family was on the Partizan side. Not a single
member
7 of my family was on the other side. Eleven members of my family were
8 killed fighting on the anti-fascist side. I am a convinced
anti-fascist,
9 and I find all this distasteful.
10 Q. Is it correct, then, that you criticised Tudjman for signing the
11 Vance-Owen Plan when representatives of the UN were deployed in the
12 territories where there was a conflict - these were the
UN-protected
13 areas - and you criticised him because Croats could not enter the
Krajina
14 until a political solution was found? Is this correct or not?
15 A. I criticised many decisions made by President Tudjman and
16 supported others, depending on the point in time. When Tudjman
suggested
17 that a referendum on Croatian independence be held, I felt that the
18 elections had been enough for citizens of Croatia to show what they
19 wanted. I thought it was enough. But Tudjman said: No. Let's have a
20 referendum.
21 I opposed the referendum, but later on I saw that in that
22 case Tudjman had been right. Sometimes I supported Tudjman,
sometimes I
23 did not. But I cannot discuss now every instance where I supported
him or
24 not, because I think this is of no interest to this Tribunal.
25 Q. In agreement with Tudjman, when you, the prime minister, you
* Continued at: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-9.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of
Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to
help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated
legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining
Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the
defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of
racism, violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the European Court, about
which more news soon. These efforts urgently require financial
support. We now maintain a small staff of Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav
attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we have an
office and office manager available at all times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM secure server so you can contribute directly on the
Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
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