International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART X
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10713
1 re-examine.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. In your interview to the president of the Association of Writers
5 of Croatia, her name is Marica Mikuljan, this is Nova Matica [phoen]
6 number 7, dated 1992, in response to her question how come you wrote
a
7 book, you said, inter alia: My original idea was to call the book
"How I
8 toppled Yugoslavia." Mr. Genscher suggested that perhaps in Europe,
such
9 a title would not be well received. Genscher added that we all
10 contributed to the break-up of Yugoslavia, and that seemed
acceptable to
11 me, hence the title of my book. That's what you said. And then in
12 response to her next question, what was your prognosis for the
Balkans
13 after the drama was over, you say, inter alia, in your response:
Let me
14 conclude. It is logical that if the opponent was declared to be the
devil
15 a priori, then his demonic family should be destroyed too, his
demonic
16 country and his entire demonic history. Now, this brings us to the
17 following question: Who declared the Serbs in advance a priori to
be the
18 devil, the demon? Did you do that on your own or was it the
leadership
19 that you were a part of, or was this done in conquered [As
interpreted]
20 with Genscher and what is your role in this kind of a priori
21 qualification?
22 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with several questions which were
23 bound up there. The first was the quotation attributed to you about
the
24 possible title of a book "How I toppled Yugoslavia." Perhaps you
can deal
25 with that. And then there was a question about your prognosis for
the
Page 10714
1 Balkans. That was the second one.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that the title of the
3 first edition of my book was "How we toppled Yugoslavia." The second
4 edition was entitled "How Yugoslavia was toppled." I said this in
order
5 to make things quite objective, namely, Croatia, Slovenia, and other
6 republics sought a confederal model. Serbia asked for a so-called
firm
7 federation. The status quo could not remain forever. That meant that
we
8 had to become independent. As the Socialist Federal Republic of
9 Yugoslavia disappeared, we all took part in the process, all of us
who
10 wanted changes and a confederacy that would have a time limit of
three to
11 five years and also those who were toppling the Federation in order
to
12 establish a different kind of federation that Croatia, Slovenia,
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia could not accept. That is why in
the
14 second title I tried to make it sound more objective, and the
contents
15 show what this book is really about.
16 As for the other part, that is not a proper quotation. I never
17 said any such thing. Who did this and who in this way deceived the
18 accused, I really have no idea.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Very well. Now that you have been saying that I created the
21 so-called Serbian bloc in the Presidency, I assume that before that
you
22 should bear in mind that all divisions in the Presidency were
created on
23 the basis of political divisions regarding ideas as to what the
destiny of
24 Yugoslavia would be, not on the basis of somebody's influence. Is
that
25 right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?
Page 10715
1 A. Well, it is clear that the leadership in Kosovo was toppled and
2 that autonomy was destroyed, that the leadership in Vojvodina was
toppled
3 and that autonomy was destroyed there. And also that the leadership
in
4 Montenegro was toppled. These three representatives, along with
Borislav
5 Jovic, who represented Serbia proper, were the Serbian bloc. It can
be
6 seen by how they voted. And also when Borislav Jovic resigned,
others
7 also resigned. But Milosevic comes forth immediately. There is no
more
8 Yugoslavia, he says. We are not going to carry out the constitution.
9 There are no valid decisions reached by the Presidency for us. And
he, as
10 the president of Serbia, who had to come to a session of the
Presidency
11 because according to the constitution he would have to stand in for
the
12 member of the Presidency from that republic if he were leave, he
said that
13 he would not do that. Now, I am really interested in hearing who
was it
14 that was toppling Yugoslavia? We wanted a different concept, and
that was
15 legal and legitimate. We thought that this kind of Yugoslavia was
16 untenable. Let us work in favour of a model that was tenable. And
if it
17 cannot be sustained, then we are going to part our ways in peace,
18 cooperate mutually as the Czechs and the Slovaks do, for example.
19 Q. Mr. Mesic, what you said just now is what you said yesterday
too,
20 and then you played a video cassette that speaks to the contrary.
Because
21 I never said there that there is no Yugoslavia. On the contrary, I
spoke
22 in favour of Yugoslavia. And as for this resignation, as I
explained at
23 that time, that's what you broadcast, it was a reaction to the fact
that
24 the Presidency did not want to pass its own decisions, and that is
why the
25 assembly of Serbia refused Jovic's resignation and returned him to
his
Page 10716
1 position two days later. And when I said I would not go there
instead of
2 him meant that I thought that he should go back there and work there
and
3 that his resignation was a reaction to the fact that the Presidency
4 refused to carry out its own decisions?
5 JUDGE MAY: What is the question for the witness?
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The film that you showed, where did you see that? And you showed
8 me on television. Where did you hear me say that Yugoslavia did not
exist
9 any more and all the rest that you said, and that the Presidency was
not
10 going to function and Borislav Jovic, the bit about Borislav Jovic?
The
11 events showed you otherwise.
12 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer this.
13 Can you help us with this, Mr. Mesic, or not?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I didn't show any
15 excerpts. That has nothing to do with me. It is the Prosecution and
16 indictment that calls for that. As far as I'm concerned, I don't
much
17 like watching television images of Slobodan Milosevic. That is far
from
18 my thoughts. As for the tape itself, we were able to see the tape.
19 Borislav Jovic and Mr. Bucin tendered their resignations and
straight away
20 we see the advent of Slobodan Milosevic, who says that he's not
going to
21 use his right to represent Borislav Jovic in the Presidency until
that man
22 had not attended the assembly meeting and until his resignation was
23 refused. So once again the accused doesn't seem to handle
arithmetic too
24 well, and now I can see that he doesn't handle time too well
either.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 10717
1 Q. Mr. Mesic, the aim assembly was scheduled. You know that Jovic
2 returned to work in the Presidency following a decision of the
Assembly of
3 his republic and that what you're saying is nonsense.
4 JUDGE MAY: No, we're not going on in this way. Let's move on to
5 another topic. You haven't asked questions about any of the
documents
6 that were produced. If you want to do that, Mr. Milosevic, you
should do
7 so in the 40 or 50 minutes that remain for you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall do my best, Mr. May, to deal
9 with that too, but as I was informed only the day before yesterday
that
10 the witness would be available two and a half times less than was
11 originally planned, I'm trying to make a selection of the more
important
12 issues.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is it true, Mr. Mesic, that the political position of Serbia
15 Montenegro was to stand up against Yugoslavia's breakdown? And is
it also
16 true that there was no firm federation as you termed it that was
proposed
17 by the representatives of Serbia and Montenegro but quite the
contrary,
18 that it was a democratic federation that they put forth, a
democratic one,
19 a free one, and I'm sure you will recall that, for example, Serbia,
at a
20 meeting of the presidents of all the republics, which was held in
21 Sarajevo, supported the proposal by Izetbegovic and Gligorov,
offering a
22 loose type of federation, the loosest possible type, but
nonetheless a
23 state of sorts and not some kind of what you would call alliance,
24 confederal alliance for a period of five years. So Serbia lent its
25 support to that particular plan, which meant that all the republics
would
Page 10718
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 10719
1 gain autonomy, but nonetheless would keep them within the realms of
a
2 state. What we wanted to do was to preserve Yugoslavia, and that is
what
3 neither you or anybody else can challenge. Isn't that right, Mr.
Mesic?
4 A. I think the accused has stated precisely what should have been
5 stated. They were against Yugoslavia, opposed to it. They were
offering
6 something that Croatian and Slovenia found unacceptable. Therefore,
he
7 was opposed to Yugoslavia, the kind of Yugoslavia that existed at
that
8 time, and that's precisely what I'm claiming. He was against
Yugoslavia.
9 He was opposed to Yugoslavia, and that is why he used the military
option
10 and worked towards the breakdown of Yugoslavia, with a military
option.
11 Q. How were you able to conclude that we were opposed to Yugoslavia
12 when the entire public knew full well that we were striving only
for the
13 preservation of Yugoslavia, and what we said was that that was the
best
14 solution for all the South Slav peoples and nobody would have a
better
15 life in any other way, and as to freedoms, rights, the independence
and
16 autonomy of the republics, they were never brought into question at
all?
17 A. Had we accepted the proposals made by the accused, then I
suppose
18 we had the nice kind of time that the Albanians have had in Kosovo
and we
19 didn't want to taste the beauties of that.
20 Q. Ah, I see. In Croatia you were under some kind of pressure, as
21 far as I understand it, pressure from Serbia, while Yugoslavia was
living.
22 I never noted any pressures of that kind. I don't know where you
saw them
23 prevalent. Perhaps you could tell me.
24 A. I think that this question is nonsense, nonsensical.
25 Q. Except in tourism, perhaps, because there were a lot of tourists
Page 10720
1 from Serbia coming to the Adriatic Coast.
2 Is it true, Mr. Mesic, that the first division in the Presidency,
3 the first rift, was caused after your statement that you wanted to
be the
4 last president of Yugoslavia?
5 A. The accused has a terribly rich imagination and he seems to be
6 very adept at distorting things. He knows full well what I said on
the
7 occasion at that time.
8 Q. Well, what did you say?
9 A. I came to Belgrade as somebody who had been elected to the
10 Presidency, and my statement, the statement I made, that Yugoslavia
in
11 that model, as it stood, could not survive. Everything that
happened
12 later on bore out the fact that I was quite right and that we had
to find
13 a political solution, because unless we found a political solution,
I
14 would be the last president. Not that I wanted to be the last
president,
15 but that I would be the last president, and that is in fact what I
was. I
16 was the last president of Yugoslavia, through the will of those
people who
17 opted for war, who selected the war option, through the will of
those who
18 refused to accept a political solution but who gave arms and
weapons into
19 the hands of those who were not to blame. They were to blame
because they
20 accepted to bear arms. But the person most to blame was the person
who
21 supplied them with arms, who put those arms and weapons in their
hands.
22 Q. So it is not being challenged that when you took up the position
23 of president, or rather, a member of the Presidency, as a member
from
24 Croatia, that you said that Yugoslavia could not survive, and it is
not
25 clear to you; you refuse to accept the fact that this was the cause
of the
Page 10721
1 rift in the Presidency, statements of this kind on your part, and
the fact
2 that these assertions of yours could not be tenable in view of the
office
3 you held.
4 JUDGE MAY: What you must not do is to misrepresent the evidence.
5 Now, the witness has answered the question. He's told you what he
said.
6 He's told you he blames your government for what happened. Now, I
7 don't think we're going to get much further on that simply arguing
about
8 it.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you know very well, as a
10 lawyer, that every state has a constitution, and that until that
11 constitution is changed, even if it is a bad constitution, that it
is in
12 force and holds true nonetheless. And when I say that the
statements made
13 by Mr. Mesic, who, according to that very constitution, was elected
to
14 perform the function at the Yugoslav level, that is to say, the top
15 Yugoslav level, that this was untenable with that constitution and
with
16 the relationship that he had towards Yugoslavia. So what I am
saying is
17 that it was he himself and no Milosevic who was the cause of the
rift that
18 took place in the Presidency.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Do you recall, for example, that --
21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have made that point several
22 times. We have heard you. We understand your case. We will deal
with it
23 in due course. We will have to make our own minds up about it. Now,
24 time is limited, and you have to concentrate on asking this witness
25 questions, if you've got any, beyond making statements. I suggest
you
Page 10722
1 move on to another topic, we having heard both sides on this
particular
2 issue about the early days of the Presidency.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please, your thesis is that I forced Montenegro not to accept
5 Carrington's plan; right? Is it clear to you that that is just not
true?
6 JUDGE MAY: Let him answer.
7 A. I never claimed that anywhere. I never said that the accused had
8 forced Montenegro not to accept Carrington's plan. All I'm saying is
that
9 the accused, with the policy he waged, broke down the autonomous
Vojvodina
10 and Kosovo and toppled the leadership, which was a legally elected
one, in
11 Montenegro, and that he implemented an anti-bureaucratic
revolution, as
12 it's called, by which in fact he destroyed Yugoslavia. Because if
you
13 destroy the constituent elements of a federation, those component
14 parts - and they were the two provinces - then Yugoslavia can no
longer
15 exist either. And that fate, the fate of Kosovo, is something that
we did
16 not wish to repeat for ourselves.
17 Let me be quite clear to the very end now. Why didn't the accused
18 fuss over the fact that the Serbs were fleeing from Croatia?
Because he
19 needed that critical mass of people to populate Kosovo once he had
20 expelled the Albanians from Kosovo. That is the plan the accused
had, to
21 throw out the Albanians and to bring in the Serbs from Croatia to
populate
22 the area. That was what he had in his mind: to destabilise Albanian
and
23 to destabilise Macedonia as well, because that mass of Albanians
coming in
24 would, of course, destabilise those two weak countries. That was
his
25 plan, and he counted upon the fact that he would be the factor and
element
Page 10723
1 which the international community would seek to calm the region, but
the
2 NATO pact stepped in to stop those awful plans of his.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Mesic, your imagination is commendable, but unfortunately --
5 A. Thank you for saying that.
6 Q. -- But unfortunately, there are many defects in it. First of all,
7 as regards Montenegro, do you recall that in Montenegro a referendum
was
8 held; that is to say, it was not an anti-bureaucratic revolution
which
9 engulfed the people and subjugated the people, but there was a
referendum
10 at which the citizens of Montenegro stated their views and opted
for
11 Yugoslavia? It was not under pressure of any kind. Is that --
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
13 A. I have already answered that. Everything that was done in that
14 particular region was done through the will -- and that is to say
not only
15 the will of Milosevic but on the will of his regime, the toppling
of those
16 leaderships. That was what he wanted to do. He held speeches in
front of
17 millions. He mobilised the populace. He convinced them that all the
18 Serbs would live in one single state, and obviously when you seize
other
19 people's territories.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Show me that speech of mine. Show me one speech in which I said
a
22 single word against Croatia or Yugoslavia. Do you have one single
example
23 to show us of that kind?
24 A. Of course. If you claim that the Serbs in Croatia have the right
25 to self-determination, they then decide, not the Serbs in Croatia
but the
* Continued at: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-11.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the
two organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid
in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this
phase of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of
racism, violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news
soon. These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART X
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10713
1 re-examine.
2 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. In your interview to the president of the Association of Writers
5 of Croatia, her name is Marica Mikuljan, this is Nova Matica [phoen]
6 number 7, dated 1992, in response to her question how come you wrote
a
7 book, you said, inter alia: My original idea was to call the book
"How I
8 toppled Yugoslavia." Mr. Genscher suggested that perhaps in Europe,
such
9 a title would not be well received. Genscher added that we all
10 contributed to the break-up of Yugoslavia, and that seemed
acceptable to
11 me, hence the title of my book. That's what you said. And then in
12 response to her next question, what was your prognosis for the
Balkans
13 after the drama was over, you say, inter alia, in your response:
Let me
14 conclude. It is logical that if the opponent was declared to be the
devil
15 a priori, then his demonic family should be destroyed too, his
demonic
16 country and his entire demonic history. Now, this brings us to the
17 following question: Who declared the Serbs in advance a priori to
be the
18 devil, the demon? Did you do that on your own or was it the
leadership
19 that you were a part of, or was this done in conquered [As
interpreted]
20 with Genscher and what is your role in this kind of a priori
21 qualification?
22 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with several questions which were
23 bound up there. The first was the quotation attributed to you about
the
24 possible title of a book "How I toppled Yugoslavia." Perhaps you
can deal
25 with that. And then there was a question about your prognosis for
the
Page 10714
1 Balkans. That was the second one.
2 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is correct that the title of the
3 first edition of my book was "How we toppled Yugoslavia." The second
4 edition was entitled "How Yugoslavia was toppled." I said this in
order
5 to make things quite objective, namely, Croatia, Slovenia, and other
6 republics sought a confederal model. Serbia asked for a so-called
firm
7 federation. The status quo could not remain forever. That meant that
we
8 had to become independent. As the Socialist Federal Republic of
9 Yugoslavia disappeared, we all took part in the process, all of us
who
10 wanted changes and a confederacy that would have a time limit of
three to
11 five years and also those who were toppling the Federation in order
to
12 establish a different kind of federation that Croatia, Slovenia,
13 Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia could not accept. That is why in
the
14 second title I tried to make it sound more objective, and the
contents
15 show what this book is really about.
16 As for the other part, that is not a proper quotation. I never
17 said any such thing. Who did this and who in this way deceived the
18 accused, I really have no idea.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Very well. Now that you have been saying that I created the
21 so-called Serbian bloc in the Presidency, I assume that before that
you
22 should bear in mind that all divisions in the Presidency were
created on
23 the basis of political divisions regarding ideas as to what the
destiny of
24 Yugoslavia would be, not on the basis of somebody's influence. Is
that
25 right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?
Page 10715
1 A. Well, it is clear that the leadership in Kosovo was toppled and
2 that autonomy was destroyed, that the leadership in Vojvodina was
toppled
3 and that autonomy was destroyed there. And also that the leadership
in
4 Montenegro was toppled. These three representatives, along with
Borislav
5 Jovic, who represented Serbia proper, were the Serbian bloc. It can
be
6 seen by how they voted. And also when Borislav Jovic resigned,
others
7 also resigned. But Milosevic comes forth immediately. There is no
more
8 Yugoslavia, he says. We are not going to carry out the constitution.
9 There are no valid decisions reached by the Presidency for us. And
he, as
10 the president of Serbia, who had to come to a session of the
Presidency
11 because according to the constitution he would have to stand in for
the
12 member of the Presidency from that republic if he were leave, he
said that
13 he would not do that. Now, I am really interested in hearing who
was it
14 that was toppling Yugoslavia? We wanted a different concept, and
that was
15 legal and legitimate. We thought that this kind of Yugoslavia was
16 untenable. Let us work in favour of a model that was tenable. And
if it
17 cannot be sustained, then we are going to part our ways in peace,
18 cooperate mutually as the Czechs and the Slovaks do, for example.
19 Q. Mr. Mesic, what you said just now is what you said yesterday
too,
20 and then you played a video cassette that speaks to the contrary.
Because
21 I never said there that there is no Yugoslavia. On the contrary, I
spoke
22 in favour of Yugoslavia. And as for this resignation, as I
explained at
23 that time, that's what you broadcast, it was a reaction to the fact
that
24 the Presidency did not want to pass its own decisions, and that is
why the
25 assembly of Serbia refused Jovic's resignation and returned him to
his
Page 10716
1 position two days later. And when I said I would not go there
instead of
2 him meant that I thought that he should go back there and work there
and
3 that his resignation was a reaction to the fact that the Presidency
4 refused to carry out its own decisions?
5 JUDGE MAY: What is the question for the witness?
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. The film that you showed, where did you see that? And you showed
8 me on television. Where did you hear me say that Yugoslavia did not
exist
9 any more and all the rest that you said, and that the Presidency was
not
10 going to function and Borislav Jovic, the bit about Borislav Jovic?
The
11 events showed you otherwise.
12 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness answer this.
13 Can you help us with this, Mr. Mesic, or not?
14 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First of all, I didn't show any
15 excerpts. That has nothing to do with me. It is the Prosecution and
16 indictment that calls for that. As far as I'm concerned, I don't
much
17 like watching television images of Slobodan Milosevic. That is far
from
18 my thoughts. As for the tape itself, we were able to see the tape.
19 Borislav Jovic and Mr. Bucin tendered their resignations and
straight away
20 we see the advent of Slobodan Milosevic, who says that he's not
going to
21 use his right to represent Borislav Jovic in the Presidency until
that man
22 had not attended the assembly meeting and until his resignation was
23 refused. So once again the accused doesn't seem to handle
arithmetic too
24 well, and now I can see that he doesn't handle time too well
either.
25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
Page 10717
1 Q. Mr. Mesic, the aim assembly was scheduled. You know that Jovic
2 returned to work in the Presidency following a decision of the
Assembly of
3 his republic and that what you're saying is nonsense.
4 JUDGE MAY: No, we're not going on in this way. Let's move on to
5 another topic. You haven't asked questions about any of the
documents
6 that were produced. If you want to do that, Mr. Milosevic, you
should do
7 so in the 40 or 50 minutes that remain for you.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I shall do my best, Mr. May, to deal
9 with that too, but as I was informed only the day before yesterday
that
10 the witness would be available two and a half times less than was
11 originally planned, I'm trying to make a selection of the more
important
12 issues.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Is it true, Mr. Mesic, that the political position of Serbia
15 Montenegro was to stand up against Yugoslavia's breakdown? And is
it also
16 true that there was no firm federation as you termed it that was
proposed
17 by the representatives of Serbia and Montenegro but quite the
contrary,
18 that it was a democratic federation that they put forth, a
democratic one,
19 a free one, and I'm sure you will recall that, for example, Serbia,
at a
20 meeting of the presidents of all the republics, which was held in
21 Sarajevo, supported the proposal by Izetbegovic and Gligorov,
offering a
22 loose type of federation, the loosest possible type, but
nonetheless a
23 state of sorts and not some kind of what you would call alliance,
24 confederal alliance for a period of five years. So Serbia lent its
25 support to that particular plan, which meant that all the republics
would
Page 10718
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 10719
1 gain autonomy, but nonetheless would keep them within the realms of
a
2 state. What we wanted to do was to preserve Yugoslavia, and that is
what
3 neither you or anybody else can challenge. Isn't that right, Mr.
Mesic?
4 A. I think the accused has stated precisely what should have been
5 stated. They were against Yugoslavia, opposed to it. They were
offering
6 something that Croatian and Slovenia found unacceptable. Therefore,
he
7 was opposed to Yugoslavia, the kind of Yugoslavia that existed at
that
8 time, and that's precisely what I'm claiming. He was against
Yugoslavia.
9 He was opposed to Yugoslavia, and that is why he used the military
option
10 and worked towards the breakdown of Yugoslavia, with a military
option.
11 Q. How were you able to conclude that we were opposed to Yugoslavia
12 when the entire public knew full well that we were striving only
for the
13 preservation of Yugoslavia, and what we said was that that was the
best
14 solution for all the South Slav peoples and nobody would have a
better
15 life in any other way, and as to freedoms, rights, the independence
and
16 autonomy of the republics, they were never brought into question at
all?
17 A. Had we accepted the proposals made by the accused, then I
suppose
18 we had the nice kind of time that the Albanians have had in Kosovo
and we
19 didn't want to taste the beauties of that.
20 Q. Ah, I see. In Croatia you were under some kind of pressure, as
21 far as I understand it, pressure from Serbia, while Yugoslavia was
living.
22 I never noted any pressures of that kind. I don't know where you
saw them
23 prevalent. Perhaps you could tell me.
24 A. I think that this question is nonsense, nonsensical.
25 Q. Except in tourism, perhaps, because there were a lot of tourists
Page 10720
1 from Serbia coming to the Adriatic Coast.
2 Is it true, Mr. Mesic, that the first division in the Presidency,
3 the first rift, was caused after your statement that you wanted to
be the
4 last president of Yugoslavia?
5 A. The accused has a terribly rich imagination and he seems to be
6 very adept at distorting things. He knows full well what I said on
the
7 occasion at that time.
8 Q. Well, what did you say?
9 A. I came to Belgrade as somebody who had been elected to the
10 Presidency, and my statement, the statement I made, that Yugoslavia
in
11 that model, as it stood, could not survive. Everything that
happened
12 later on bore out the fact that I was quite right and that we had
to find
13 a political solution, because unless we found a political solution,
I
14 would be the last president. Not that I wanted to be the last
president,
15 but that I would be the last president, and that is in fact what I
was. I
16 was the last president of Yugoslavia, through the will of those
people who
17 opted for war, who selected the war option, through the will of
those who
18 refused to accept a political solution but who gave arms and
weapons into
19 the hands of those who were not to blame. They were to blame
because they
20 accepted to bear arms. But the person most to blame was the person
who
21 supplied them with arms, who put those arms and weapons in their
hands.
22 Q. So it is not being challenged that when you took up the position
23 of president, or rather, a member of the Presidency, as a member
from
24 Croatia, that you said that Yugoslavia could not survive, and it is
not
25 clear to you; you refuse to accept the fact that this was the cause
of the
Page 10721
1 rift in the Presidency, statements of this kind on your part, and
the fact
2 that these assertions of yours could not be tenable in view of the
office
3 you held.
4 JUDGE MAY: What you must not do is to misrepresent the evidence.
5 Now, the witness has answered the question. He's told you what he
said.
6 He's told you he blames your government for what happened. Now, I
7 don't think we're going to get much further on that simply arguing
about
8 it.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, you know very well, as a
10 lawyer, that every state has a constitution, and that until that
11 constitution is changed, even if it is a bad constitution, that it
is in
12 force and holds true nonetheless. And when I say that the
statements made
13 by Mr. Mesic, who, according to that very constitution, was elected
to
14 perform the function at the Yugoslav level, that is to say, the top
15 Yugoslav level, that this was untenable with that constitution and
with
16 the relationship that he had towards Yugoslavia. So what I am
saying is
17 that it was he himself and no Milosevic who was the cause of the
rift that
18 took place in the Presidency.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. Do you recall, for example, that --
21 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you have made that point several
22 times. We have heard you. We understand your case. We will deal
with it
23 in due course. We will have to make our own minds up about it. Now,
24 time is limited, and you have to concentrate on asking this witness
25 questions, if you've got any, beyond making statements. I suggest
you
Page 10722
1 move on to another topic, we having heard both sides on this
particular
2 issue about the early days of the Presidency.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Please, your thesis is that I forced Montenegro not to accept
5 Carrington's plan; right? Is it clear to you that that is just not
true?
6 JUDGE MAY: Let him answer.
7 A. I never claimed that anywhere. I never said that the accused had
8 forced Montenegro not to accept Carrington's plan. All I'm saying is
that
9 the accused, with the policy he waged, broke down the autonomous
Vojvodina
10 and Kosovo and toppled the leadership, which was a legally elected
one, in
11 Montenegro, and that he implemented an anti-bureaucratic
revolution, as
12 it's called, by which in fact he destroyed Yugoslavia. Because if
you
13 destroy the constituent elements of a federation, those component
14 parts - and they were the two provinces - then Yugoslavia can no
longer
15 exist either. And that fate, the fate of Kosovo, is something that
we did
16 not wish to repeat for ourselves.
17 Let me be quite clear to the very end now. Why didn't the accused
18 fuss over the fact that the Serbs were fleeing from Croatia?
Because he
19 needed that critical mass of people to populate Kosovo once he had
20 expelled the Albanians from Kosovo. That is the plan the accused
had, to
21 throw out the Albanians and to bring in the Serbs from Croatia to
populate
22 the area. That was what he had in his mind: to destabilise Albanian
and
23 to destabilise Macedonia as well, because that mass of Albanians
coming in
24 would, of course, destabilise those two weak countries. That was
his
25 plan, and he counted upon the fact that he would be the factor and
element
Page 10723
1 which the international community would seek to calm the region, but
the
2 NATO pact stepped in to stop those awful plans of his.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Mr. Mesic, your imagination is commendable, but unfortunately --
5 A. Thank you for saying that.
6 Q. -- But unfortunately, there are many defects in it. First of all,
7 as regards Montenegro, do you recall that in Montenegro a referendum
was
8 held; that is to say, it was not an anti-bureaucratic revolution
which
9 engulfed the people and subjugated the people, but there was a
referendum
10 at which the citizens of Montenegro stated their views and opted
for
11 Yugoslavia? It was not under pressure of any kind. Is that --
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
13 A. I have already answered that. Everything that was done in that
14 particular region was done through the will -- and that is to say
not only
15 the will of Milosevic but on the will of his regime, the toppling
of those
16 leaderships. That was what he wanted to do. He held speeches in
front of
17 millions. He mobilised the populace. He convinced them that all the
18 Serbs would live in one single state, and obviously when you seize
other
19 people's territories.
20 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
21 Q. Show me that speech of mine. Show me one speech in which I said
a
22 single word against Croatia or Yugoslavia. Do you have one single
example
23 to show us of that kind?
24 A. Of course. If you claim that the Serbs in Croatia have the right
25 to self-determination, they then decide, not the Serbs in Croatia
but the
* Continued at: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-11.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the
two organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid
in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this
phase of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of
racism, violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news
soon. These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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