International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
www.icdsm.org

=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART II
Because the transcript of the cross-examination is 150 pages long we
have broken it into 12 easy to read segments. If you wish to read the
whole thing at once go to: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
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Page 10614

1 Wednesday, 2 October 2002

2 [Open session]

3 [The accused entered court]

4 [The witness entered court]

5 --- Upon commencing at 9.10 a.m.

6 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

7 WITNESS: STJEPAN MESIC [Resumed]

8 [Witness answered through interpreter]

9 Cross-examined by Mr. Milosevic:

10 Q. [Interpretation] How long a prison sentence did you serve in

11 Gradisce?

12 A. One year.

13 Q. You were there together with Petar Sale and another person in
the

14 same cell; right?

15 A. Yes, in the same penitentiary, but we were not in the same room.

16 Q. And you know, later, that the state security service recorded
your

17 activities with the third person that you were with?

18 A. I don't know anything about that.

19 Q. Is it correct -- I mean, I imagine that you do know that at that

20 time you were monitored, taken care of, I don't know how to put it,
by

21 Milanko Orescanin, an operations officer of the state security
service?

22 A. This is the first time I hear that name.

23 Q. He worked at the state security service in Slavonski Brod?

24 A. This is the first time I hear that name, and in Slavonski Brod,
I

25 was there only a few times in my life.

Page 10615

1 Q. Well, he had very detailed information about your activities

2 concerning that person. Tell me: Do you know anything about that?

3 Because there is evidence that after the HDZ victory, you were the
person

4 who gave instructions to have that operations officer killed, the
man from

5 Slavonski Brod, and he was liquidated on the 15th of August, 1991, a

6 religious holiday, Sunday.

7 Q. This is the first I ever hear of it. I never held any executive

8 positions and I had no influence whatsoever on anyone's liberty or
life.

9 Q. But there are persons, there are witnesses, Mr. Mesic, who

10 according to your instructions kidnapped that person, Mijokovic,
Milan

11 from Slavonski Brod and Jokic, Ivan from Slavonski Brod?

12 A. You're probably the one who is socialising with them. I have no

13 idea.

14 Q. Also according to your instructions, Momo Devrnja, a Serb from

15 Orahovac, a forwarder was liquidated, a man who had a conflict with
you.

16 I imagine you remember that?

17 A. Just as much influence as I had on Lincoln's assassination.

18 That's about it.

19 Q. On the 24th of December, Muselinovic, Miodrag with his wife
Milici

20 and neighbour Desanka Radonjic [phoen] was the chief of SUP in
Orahovac

21 and he was killed according to your instructions.

22 A. The same answer as for the previous one.

23 THE INTERPRETER: Could the accused please repeat the question.

24 The speed is impossible to follow.

25 JUDGE MAY: We'll have to pause. The interpreters can't keep up

Page 10616

1 this pace. Now, you both speak the same language; therefore, it
would be

2 better if there was a pause between the question and answer. And
also

3 after the answer. Mr. Milosevic, will you bear that in mind.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. According to your instructions, Serb villages Pusina, Kokocak,

6 Kraskovici [phoen], Brekoracani [phoen], Gornja Pistana, Slatinski

7 Drenovac were destroyed; is that correct or is that not correct?

8 A. That has nothing to do with actual facts. I found out about the

9 torching of these villages and I protested. I launched by protest
with

10 President Tudjman.

11 Q. With who?

12 A. With President Tudjman, and you had also socialised with him.

13 Q. You were involved in the Hefner affair in 1967, the one that had

14 to do with the selling of white slaves, and also you remember that
Tito

15 referred to an affair that you were involved in that had to do with
buying

16 machinery for the textile industry in Leskovac.

17 A. No. This is just a figment of someone's imagination.

18 Q. Is it correct that you were the main organiser of the affair
that

19 had to do with military records, abolishing the security records
that were

20 kept? Need I remind you of why you did that?

21 A. This is no affair. This has to do with the following: The

22 National Defence authorities kept records about young men who were

23 supposed to go and do their military service. As president of the

24 municipality, I got information that Croats were not being
sufficiently

25 active in the army, that they did not enroll in military schools.
They

Page 10617

1 did not take up commissions and they did not go to military schools
in

2 general. I was surprised by the fact that it was only Serbs who were

3 applying. I realised that there was one particular item in

4 questionnaires, that is to say, item 32, and this was something that
was

5 filled by the officials of the Secretariats of National Defence and
I

6 asked to see what was written there. Since a person involved
protested

7 because it said that his father -- his name is Slavko Sulovnjak. He
was

8 in the army. And in that questionnaire, it said that his father was
an

9 Ustasha from 1941 and that he was tried as a war criminal. However,
his

10 father had been a partisan. His father had retired as an
non-commissioned

11 officer of the Yugoslav People's Army. I asked for this to be
looked

12 into. They did look into it and they established that for over 90
per

13 cent of Croatian young men, it said that they were children of
enemies,

14 and that therefore they could not attend such schools. Serb
children did

15 have passing grades, though, so to speak. That is what I know about
item

16 32.

17 Q. That's what the Croatian authorities wrote. It was not the Serb

18 authorities.

19 A. It was Serbs who were employed in the National Defence

20 authorities, and I can even give you names if you're really
interested.

21 Q. Are you trying to say that Croats were not employed in Croatia
in

22 National Defence authorities?

23 A. It is only when I came to Orahovac as president of the

24 municipality, the first Croat became head of the Secretariat for
National

25 Defence.

Page 10618

1 Q. All right. Is it correct that while you were in prison, and this

2 Petar Sale, by the way, is a well-known chauvinist from Sibenik; is
that

3 right? While you were in prison, the officials of the state security

4 service of Croatia tried to employ your services for the rest of
your

5 prison term?

6 A. Again this is a figment of your imagination. I did have a prison

7 sentence of two years and two months. This was the first-instance
court

8 that made that ruling. However, the Supreme Court reduced the
sentence to

9 one year and I served one year. I don't really see why anybody would
try

10 to enlist my services. This is again pure fantasy.

11 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, remind us again: When was this prison

12 sentence? What years.

13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] From 1975, from May 1975 until May

14 1976.

15 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

16 Q. Is it correct that after that you worked for the state security

17 service of Croatia in the sector for internal enemies at that?

18 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment, Mr. Milosevic.

19 The next question is: What was the sentence imposed for?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] For participation in the Croatian

21 Spring. I was president of a municipality and I took part in the
Croatian

22 Spring, as it was called. I can also give you a list of all the
crimes

23 that I was accused of, if the Trial Chamber is interested in that.

24 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10619

1 Q. When was this Croatian Spring?

2 A. One of the crimes was that I said: Let the devil get warm by our

3 Croatian fire but let him not extinguish the fire. At that time, a

4 topical question throughout Yugoslavia was the struggle for
constitutional

5 amendments. I said for all of those who wish to see democracy, there
is

6 place in the train leading to democracy. Every person who tries to

7 sidetrack that train by putting his foot in front of it can only
remain

8 without that foot. That's what I said.

9 I also said that the Croats tread their path to the Adriatic Sea

10 with their own sabres and all the rest followed in their footsteps.
These

11 are the crimes for which I was sentenced to two years, two months
in

12 prison.

13 Q. Is it true that you worked then for the state security service
of

14 Croatia in the department for internal enemies and that after that
you

15 started working for the state security service of the Yugoslav
army?

16 A. The truth is that I asked for a passport. For 15 years I did not

17 have a passport. I asked for a passport to be issued to me as a
free

18 citizen. I was refused a passport, and I lodged a complaint because
of

19 that. And I did that every year, a few times every year, as a
matter of

20 fact. That is more or less all the contact I had with the police.
All

21 the rest just pertains to the realm of fantasy.

22 Q. All right. You did not work for the state security service of

23 Croatia, you did not work for the counter-intelligence service of
the

24 army, I assume. And it is assumed that your relationship with
Spegelj

25 dates back to those days, that is to say, some other period of
time. Do

Page 10620

1 you know that Franjo Tudjman replaced Spegelj as well because it was
his

2 suspicion that he was an agent of the KOS and that is why he fled
across

3 the border with the assistance of Josip Manolic, former head of the

4 Croatian police, with a false passport issued in a false name?

5 A. This is pure fantasy and that can be proved by the following: In

6 order to get a job after prison, I applied at 150 different posts.

7 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish. Yes. Let him finish.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] My question was different, and it

9 had to do with Spegelj.

10 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish and give his explanation.

11 A. What is the logic? Why would I work for the state security

12 service and I could not find a job? And I applied at 150 different

13 places, and I did not get a job anywhere. What is the logic of
that? And

14 for 15 years I did not have a passport.

15 As for Spegelj, the situation was well known. At a meeting of the

16 Croatian political leadership, Spegelj presented a plan, which is
referred

17 to in Croatia as the Spegelj Plan. He proposed that warehouses be
seized

18 from the Yugoslav People's Army, where weapons were, depots with
the

19 weapons of the Yugoslav People's Army, and not to touch military
barracks

20 but to take weapons. Since in these depots there were several
hundreds or

21 perhaps thousands of tanks, Spegelj said: If we take these weapons,
for

22 each tank we have people who are trained, who were in the army, and
if

23 Milosevic wants to move against Croatia, we have the resources to
meet

24 him. In this way, we are going to avoid a war, because the Yugoslav
army

25 is in disarray. However, if we go on waiting, the Yugoslav army
will

Page 10621

1 consolidate itself, it's going to become a Serb army, and Milosevic
is

2 going for try to conquer Croatian territories with it. Tudjman
disagreed

3 with that. I was the only one who voted in favour of that proposal,
and

4 that is why General Spegelj left his post.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I see that you really have this hang-up about Milosevic. You

7 mentioned me in every other sentence you uttered yesterday. On the
basis

8 of what you said just now, Mr. Mesic, is that to show that you were
more

9 radical than Tudjman in your viewpoints that had to do with the war,
more

10 radical than Tudjman?

11 A. I'm really pleased that this question was put to me, because I

12 responded in one case how war can be averted; to take weapons from
the

13 hands of the army and to avoid the war. Because Croatia would have

14 something to meet Milosevic with if he were to attack. So this is a
case

15 about which I think I was right until the present day, and I think
that

16 General Spegelj was right too. Many lives would have been saved,
both of

17 Serbs and Croats, had it been that way.

18 Q. Mr. Mesic, is it clear to you, in connection with these

19 accusations levelled against Milosevic, and Milosevic's purported
command

20 over the army, what you said just now, that I really had -- had I
actually

21 had the possibility of commanding the army, Yugoslavia would not
have

22 fallen apart, there would not have been a civil war. Regrettably, I
did

23 not have that possibility, so what happened, happened. But please
answer

24 the following: You spoke about motives a few minutes ago. Motive
for a

25 cooperation with the state security service. Could your motive not
have

Page 10622

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Page 10623

1 been to reduce your prison sentence from two years to one year? You
said

2 it yourself. Just like now, the motive for cooperation here is to
avoid

3 punishment and responsibility that is your due, since you are a
person --

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you know you have to ask questions here

5 and not make speeches. The witness has said that he did not
cooperate

6 with the state security service, so there seems little point going
on

7 about it. Your next question.

8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Now that we're on the subject, that we're discussing such

11 questions: On the 24th of April -- on the 26th of April, 1994, you
stated

12 for Feral Tribune: There were quite a few murders in the case of
which

13 the perpetrators, though known, are not in prison yet. People know
who

14 killed Reihl-Kir and Saban Krivokuca, the Zec family. The murders
of the

15 Zec family said themselves that they raped the woman and her
12-year-old

16 daughter and killed them. One of them is employed by the Ministry
of

17 Defence. You know it's not easy to sit at the same table with a
person

18 whose bodyguard took a 12-year-old child, followed a bullet into
his head

19 and then threw him into the garbage. It is my understanding that it
has

20 become clear to the Croat people as well that things have happened
that

21 are leading us to an abyss. So that is your own statement, isn't
it? I

22 have quoted you correctly, I believe. My question is: The changes
in

23 Croatia - you are now president of Croatia - is this fact --

24 JUDGE MAY: Let us first of all deal with the quotation which you

25 have attributed to the witness.

Page 10624

1 Mr. Mesic, that is a quotation from a paper in April 1994. Is the

2 quotation correct, and is there anything you want to say about it
before

3 we move on to another subject?

4 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Correct. I always struggled for the

5 rule of law, and I did assert that crimes had been committed, and
the rule

6 of law had to prevail. I am struggling for the rule of law now as
well.

7 I'm struggling for ascertaining individual guilt and responsibility,

8 because in that case, collective responsibility will be halted.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. All right. My question was: The changes in Croatia which have

11 taken place, and you have been elected president, has that led to
this

12 clearing up and settling of accounts with the killers that you
yourself

13 said were known, that their names were known, the people who did
the

14 killings were known? Now, you, as head of the Croatian state now,
have

15 you succeeded in clearing all this up and bringing these people to

16 justice?

17 A. The people that you are talking about in this particular case
are

18 undergoing trial in Croatia at the moment.

19 Q. You mean all the victims that you mentioned, or just some of
them?

20 A. The ones that we learnt about have been taken to trial, but none

21 of the cases have been completed, no files have been closed, and

22 investigations are under way and the perpetrators will be
prosecuted.

23 Q. Do you yourself feel responsible for what took place and for the

24 crimes that were committed while you yourself occupied the highest
posts

25 and offices in Croatia after Tudjman, that is to say, up until
1994?

Page 10625

1 A. The accused knows very well, because he's a lawyer, that I was

2 president of the Croatian Sabor or parliament assembly, which means
primus

3 inter pares, and I was president of parliament. I was not in the

4 judiciary organs or in executive power and authority, nor was I in
the

5 police force. And the accused knows full well what the function of a

6 parliament is.

7 Q. As far as I remember, you were president of the executive board
of

8 the HDZ party as well.

9 A. Yes. I was the president of the executive board of the HDZ.

10 That's true, in 1992, which means from January to the elections,
that is

11 to say, until October 1992.

12 Q. Before that, you were prime minister when the HDZ won the

13 elections; isn't that right, Mr. Mesic, when it came into power?

14 A. Yes, you're quite right. You have the right facts and figures. I

15 was prime minister for three months. That is true. And after that I
took

16 up my post as member of the Yugoslav state Presidency. And that's
where I

17 remained until the end of 1991.

18 Q. All right. What you're saying is that after you returned from
the

19 Yugoslav state Presidency, when you were elected as president of
the

20 Croatian parliament, that that was not the second most important
office in

21 Croatia and that you link your activities up with the formal
decisions

22 taken by -- official decisions taken by parliament and not for the
overall

23 political situation in Croatia, the state of affairs that prevailed
and

24 everything that went on there. You were the number two man in
Croatia;

25 isn't that right, Mr. Mesic?

Page 10626

1 A. I always strove for the functioning of the rule of law of the

2 Croatian state and the Croatian constitution recognises the division
of

3 power into three sections: The legal section and the two others, the

4 judiciary and everything else that the constitution implied and

5 stipulated, which means that I was president of parliament.

6 Q. All right. You therefore consider that you worked in line with

7 the constitution and that you did the work that comes under the

8 competencies of the parliament. Does the parliament have the right
to

9 send Croatian troops, for example, to Bosnia-Herzegovina or is that

10 something that comes under the competence of executive power?

11 A. It's a very good thing that this question was raised, and I
think

12 we ought to clear it up now. For the Croatian army to be able to
act

13 outside Croatia, the head of state could take a decision only with
the

14 acquiescence and agreement from the Croatian parliament. This kind
of

15 agreement was never issued by the Croatian parliament, whether
anybody

16 went outside Croatia, groups or individuals, it was not up to the

17 parliament to ascertain.

18 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. What you're saying is that you don't

19 consider yourself to be responsible for not having carried out your

20 constitutional duties, the ones that you insisted upon a moment
ago,

21 because parliament did not take decisions in that respect, the
decisions

22 that it should have taken. So you feel, do you, that this rids you
of all

23 responsibility?

24 A. Yes, that's quite right.

25 Q. And are you aware of the fact that, for example, units of the

Page 10627

1 Republic of Croatia launched an attack on the municipality of Brod
in

2 Bosnia-Herzegovina on the 26th of March, 1992, a great crime was
committed

3 there, the population of the village of Sijekovac in the Bosanski
Brod

4 municipality was massacred and even at that time Bosnia-Herzegovina
was

5 not even internationally recognised, which means that in all
respects it

6 was part and parcel of Yugoslavia, even in the most -- in the
strictest

7 formal sense. And their 108 -- the members of the 108th Brigade of
the

8 National Guard Corps were there from Slavonski Brod and so on and so

9 forth. There is a complete set of documents pertaining to the

10 perpetrators. Is it possible that you, as president of parliament,
did

11 not know about that?

12 A. There were several interventions that I had from several
families

13 of -- and the parents said that they had gone to Bosnia. I asked
for

14 information, both from the head of state and the defence minister,
and

15 they told me that it was only volunteers who had gone and that it
was the

16 volunteers who were born in Bosnia-Herzegovina who volunteered to
go. I

17 had no other instruments at my disposal. The only thing I could do
was to

18 ask to be informed. But I must say that if anybody does have
knowledge as

19 to the fact that a citizen of Croatia perpetrated a crime anywhere,
then

20 this should be filed. Croatia is a country in which the rule of law
holds

21 true today, and everybody will be held accountable.

22 Q. Well, you've received many such reports, Mr. Mesic, but are you

23 saying now that you did not know, as president of parliament, a
body who

24 was the sole body competent to take a decision in the matter, that
you did

25 not know that what came within the frameworks of your competence
was done

Page 10628

1 illegally and that you did not in fact know that Croatian troops
were

2 present in Bosnia-Herzegovina? Is that what you're saying?

3 A. That observation is quite correct. I did not know about that.

4 Q. All right. Did you know, for example, that from the 3rd of April

5 until the 9th of April an attack was launched on Kupres, the Gornji

6 Malovan, Kratez, Mala Plazenica, Zagliska Suma [phoen], the town of

7 Kupres, Begovo Selo, all these other villages, and so on and so
forth?

8 JUDGE MAY: Is looks as though this is going to be a reputation of

9 much of the cross-examination which we heard in the earlier part of
the

10 case, which doesn't relate to the evidence of the witness. What he
said

11 is that he heard of interventions, made inquiries and was told that
it was

12 due to volunteers. Perhaps, Mr. Mesic, in order to avoid a long
list

13 being given, if that's what the accused has in mind, can you answer
this

14 question: Can you tell us where these interventions which you
inquired

15 about took place, or can you not now remember?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I certainly do not know the

17 locations they were sent to, but the parents of the young men told
us that

18 their children had gone to Bosnia. When I asked about this, the
defence

19 minister and the former president of the Republic told me that not
a

20 single unit had gone, that it was only volunteers who had gone, and
that

21 is the volunteers who were actually born in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
Now, I

22 had no other instruments for investigating the truthfulness of
those

23 assertions.

24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

25 Q. Mr. Mesic, it wasn't a case of individuals, for example, if we
had

Page 10629

1 the 106th Brigade from Osijek, the full complement of it, and the
Zuti

2 Mravi from Vukovar, the 101 Zagreb Brigade, the Student King
Tomislav

3 Battalion, the Zrinjski Battalion, the special purpose unit of the
MUP of

4 Croatia and so on and so forth. In addition to the KOS, the Zenga,
and so

5 on?

6 JUDGE MAY: Pause there, Mr. Milosevic. The witness can only give

7 evidence about what he knew himself. Now, what is being suggested,
that

8 these units intervened in your inquiries, were those units
mentioned? Do

9 you know anything about them or not?

10 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I see that the accused knows the

11 situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina very well and that he is well aware
of all

12 the units that went to war there, and I'm sure he could enumerate
all the

13 Serbs units. If he knows about the Croatian units, I'm sure he
knows much

14 more about those who came from Belgrade and other towns and
destroyed

15 Croatian and Bosnian towns. However, let me respond once again and
say

16 that I did not know of a single unit which went from Croatia to

17 Bosnia-Herzegovina.

18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

19 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Is it true that your nephew, who was not a

20 volunteer and who is not from Bosnia-Herzegovina, also went to

21 Bosnia-Herzegovina with his unit? Do you know about that? Are you
aware

22 of that?

23 A. My nephews were not in the army. They were too young to be.

24 Q. All right. We'll get to that later on.

25 But tell me this: How can you, for example, as we spoke a moment

Page 10630

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 10631

1 ago about those incidents and what was going on, to all intents and

2 purposes an aggression, and you say you know nothing about it, this
is

3 what I have in my hand: The command for the rear of Bosanski Brod

4 Sijekovac. That is where the crimes were perpetrated --

5 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop you now. The witness has given his

6 evidence. He knows nothing about it. Your duty, your function at the

7 moment, is to cross-examine him about his evidence. It's not to make

8 speeches or try and present evidence yourself. Now, he's given his

9 evidence about this matter and he can take it no further. In due
course,

10 if it's relevant, you can call evidence, but for the moment you
must move

11 on to some other topic.

12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, I wish to ask the witness

13 respect to what he says he didn't know, how he can --

14 JUDGE MAY: He's told you. He told you he doesn't know. He

15 doesn't know.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] His comment on this military

17 document and this is something that will take me 20 seconds to read
out.

18 This is a photocopy with a stamp and signature. It is a permit
allowing

19 the intervention platoon from Zagreb, a certificate, in fact, to
execute

20 the detention of women --

21 JUDGE MAY: Is it signed by the witness? What connection does it

22 have with him, before you put it.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The connection it has is -- with the

24 witness is -- this is to say, it is linked with his second function
in the

25 hierarchy of the Republic of Croatia, and this is a certificate
issued to

Page 10632

1 the intervention platoon from Zagreb, which is the capital of
Croatia,

2 where the cabinet of Mr. Mesic is located, a permit allowing the
detention

3 of women, young girls, Serbs, for the needs of the male sex.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, what is the connection with this

5 witness, before you put it?

6 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, the connection is to show

7 that the units that he says he knows nothing about are not only
committing

8 crimes but are organising rape and all the rest of it.

9 JUDGE MAY: Look, that's nothing to do with the witness. You're

10 here to cross-examine him about these matters. If it's relevant,
you can

11 call evidence in due course, but what you're not here to do is to
make

12 speeches and try and present evidence that crimes were committed by
the

13 other side which are irrelevant. Now, this trial, remember, this

14 indictment, is about crimes which are alleged -- it's alleged that
you

15 committed, and his evidence is about that, so you should
concentrate on

16 that rather than to try and show that crimes were committed by
others.

17 MR. KAY: Your Honour, may I just raise a few matters, because

18 it's plainly important to the accused. Perhaps what is at stake
here is

19 the credibility of this particular witness for the Prosecution. In

20 respect of this, the accused is attempting, I believe, to put
forward to

21 the Court various events that occurred during his Presidency of
Croatia,

22 to demonstrate his involvement within the conflict that occurred in
the

23 region. Those issues may well be important to this accused in
relation to

24 issues of defence of territory, other aspects of the conflict. I
don't

25 have instructions on that matter, so I can't say, but it may well
be that

Page 10633

1 it's the form of questioning that's the problem here. But it's the
issue

2 of what was happening at the time whilst he was president of Croatia
and

3 whilst troops were leaving the borders of his state.

4 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, much time has been wasted in this trial in

5 trying to establish that crimes were committed by others, which may
or may

6 not be relevant to the trial. That is why it's important to see
whether

7 documents were signed by this witness. If the issue is that it was

8 notorious, if that's the point that is being made, that crimes were
being

9 put, were being made, were being committed, then that can be put to
the

10 witness. What can't be put, which is what I suspect the accused is
doing,

11 is to read out lists and lists of crimes, taking up time, and
thereby, in

12 my view, raising matters which at this stage are not relevant to
the

13 trial. Our time is limited. We must stick to the relevant matters.
But

14 I will put to the witness the general point, and we'll hear what he
says.

15 Mr. Mesic, what may be being suggested is this, and you can help

16 us, if you would: That it was well known that crimes were being
committed

17 in Bosnia during the time of your Presidency. I think this is what
is

18 being suggested. And therefore you must have known about these
matters,

19 apart from them being referred to by the parents of the volunteers
or

20 members of the armed forces, as you suggested. Now, if that is
being

21 suggested, then you should answer it. Was this a matter which in
fact was

22 something of general knowledge in Croatia, and in particular, to
you as

23 president at the time?

24 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] While I was the president of the

25 parliament, I knew about the camps organised by the Serbian side in
Bosnia

Page 10634

1 and Herzegovina. I received information, and this was actually shown
on

2 television ultimately. If there were other crimes, news of them did
not

3 reach me.

4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

5 Q. Until when were you president of parliament, Mr. Mesic? Until

6 what date?

7 A. I was president of parliament from the 7th of September, 1992

8 until the 24th of May, 1994.

9 Q. 1994. Very well. In that period of time, I ask you, within that

10 period of time, what you said you don't know, and you said you
inquired of

11 the minister about -- let me tell you: On the 3rd of July, 1993,
Alois

12 Mok criticised the Croats because of their activities against the
Muslims,

13 and he issued a protest which he addressed to the government of
Croatia.

14 On the 4th of February, also while you were president of
parliament, the

15 Security Council of the United Nations -- let me repeat- the
Security

16 Council of the United Nations, neither more nor less, issued a
statement

17 warning Croatia that it would be exposed to serious consequences if
it did

18 not withdraw its regular troops from Bosnia within a period of two
months.

19 So this is issued by the Security Council. It was a presidential

20 statement. And yet you, as the president of parliament, say you did
not

21 know about this. On the same day, the German chancellor, Helmut
Kohl?

22 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness deal with the Security Council point

23 and then you can tell us what is the relevance of this, Mr.
Milosevic.

24 Yes.

25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It's really noteworthy that the

Page 10635

1 accused is now expressing remorse for the sufferings of the Bosniak

2 people. This is really something to be commended. However --

3 JUDGE MAY: Could you deal with the Security Council resolution,

4 please.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] With respect the resolution, I have

6 already said what I was able to do was to ask the president of the
state

7 whether our troops had crossed the border. He said no. The Minister
of

8 Defence said no. I had no other instruments at my disposal.

9 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

10 Q. Very well. May we proceed?

11 JUDGE MAY: No, we're not going to proceed with this until you've

12 explained what the relevance is. The indictment charges you with
crimes

13 in Croatia in the period between 1990 and 1992. What relevance does
the

14 conflict between the Muslims and the Croats have in relation to
that?

15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, what we are speaking of

16 here is not relevance, but rather, the credibility of this witness.

17 JUDGE MAY: Very well. Yes. You can ask questions about the

18 credibility -- wait a moment. You can ask questions relating to the

19 credibility of the witness, but of course you're bound by his
answers and

20 the questions can only go so far as to test their credibility. Now,
he's

21 given you an answer about the Security Council resolution. Your
next

22 question.

23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well, Mr. May. Then I may

24 proceed to my next question.

25 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

Page 10636

1 Q. You arrived on the 5th of December in the Croatian parliament.

2 You thanked them for their confidence. This was on the 5th of
December,

3 1991. And you made a notorious statement to the effect that you
thought I

4 have performed my task. Yugoslavia is no more. Is this so, Mr.
Mesic?

5 We saw it on the video we played here a few days ago, and all of

6 Yugoslavia knows about this. You said: I think I have performed my
task.

7 Yugoslavia is no more.

8 A. An excellent question. I will explain what this was about. The

9 Croatian parliament elected me to be the Croatian member of the
Presidency

10 of Yugoslavia. I went to Belgrade, where first, for several months,
I was

11 not allowed to take up my duties because the Federal Assembly was
unable

12 to meet. After that, the Serbian bloc boycotted my election as
president

13 under --

14 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, let him finish. You've asked him a

15 question. Let him give his explanation.

16 A. Finally, under pressure from the international community, I was

17 elected president. Croatia adopted a decision on its independence.

18 Croatia, in agreement with the international community, postponed
its

19 secession from Yugoslavia by three months. This time period had
elapsed.

20 Yugoslavia no longer existed. The federal institutions were no
longer

21 functioning. I returned to Zagreb, and that's precisely what I
said.

22 Because I did not go to Belgrade to open up a house-painting
business. I

23 went there as a member of the Presidency of Yugoslavia. Since
Yugoslavia

24 no longer existed and the Presidency no longer existed, I had
performed

25 the tasks entrusted to me by the Croatian parliament and was
reporting

Page 10637

1 back, ready to take up a different office. What was I to do in
Belgrade

2 when the Presidency no longer existed?

3 Q. Very well, Mr. Mesic. This is truly worthy of admiration, your

4 explanation of what you said, but you haven't told me whether you
actually

5 said: I have performed my task. Yugoslavia is no more.

6 A. The accused is a lawyer. He understands very well what I'm

7 talking about. My task was to represent Croatia in the Federal

8 Presidency.

9 Q. There is no need for you to repeat this. You said this in the

10 Croatian or Serbian language, or whatever you want to call it, and

11 everybody understood it. Your explanation now is obviously an
attempt to

12 make this statement relative, but this is no longer important.

13 [Trial Chamber confers]

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. In your public statements, or rather, in Tudjman's public

16 statements on Ban Jelacic Square on the 24th of May, 1992, said
"There

17 would have been no war had not Croatia wanted it. But we thought
that it

18 was only by war that we could win the independence of Croatia.
That's why

19 we had a policy of negotiations behind which we were setting up
military

20 units. Had this not been so, we would not have reached our goal."
Is

21 this correct, Mr. Mesic?

22 A. I think that this could have been reported only by the Serbian

23 press, because it simply does not correspond to the truth. We know
who

24 was in control of the press in Serbia. It was the accused, Slobodan

25 Milosevic.

Page 10638

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2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

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12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and

13 English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10639

1 Q. Unfortunately, a few days ago we watched a video of this, and we

2 saw this speech on Ban Jelacic square, taped on video. Tell me,
please:

3 Do you know that when the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia was founded
and

4 the new constituted was promulgated on the 27th of April, 1992, a

5 declaration was adopted on the goals of the new common state, that
is, the

6 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, according to which, and I quote
verbatim:

7 "Yugoslavia has no territorial pretensions towards any of the former

8 Yugoslav republics." Are you aware of this?

9 A. I don't know what the declaration on the establishing of the

10 Federal Republic of Yugoslavia says, but I do know everything that
was

11 done to cut off parts of Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina and
annex them

12 to Serbia.

13 Q. Mr. Mesic, you're telling us fairy tales about Karlovac,
Karlobag

14 Virovitica boundary. When did you ever hear any official of the
Republic

15 of Serbia referring to this border, and when did any body or organ
of the

16 Republic of Serbia or anyone in Yugoslavia raise this issue and
talk about

17 such a boundary? This is a pure fabrication that you are launching
here.

18 Where did you get this idea?

19 A. It's quite understandable that those who perpetrated aggression

20 did not make such statements, but the Serbian minister, who was in
the

21 government, one of the ministers of Mr. Milosevic, visited this
boundary

22 with Vojislav Seselj, the Chetnik Vojvoda or leader, to show how
far the

23 interests of Serbia reached.

24 Q. What minister are you referring to? And if a minister visits a

25 spot, if he goes to a certain municipality, does he go to a
boundary or

Page 10640

1 does he mark a boundary? Was he marking a boundary there?

2 A. You understand very well that if someone visits Croatia,

3 especially an official, he should visit the official organs of the

4 Republic of Croatia.

5 Q. What municipal organs are you referring to if someone is visiting

6 a municipality? I didn't know you were a police state of that kind,
that

7 someone visiting a municipality in Croatia would have to report to
the

8 police.

9 A. I was not paid to teach the accused Croatian laws. I was paid to

10 implement them.

11 Q. Mr. Mesic, you are a university graduate. Did you ever learn

12 about the rights of peoples to self-determination, and do you know
that

13 volumes and volumes of books have been written on this topic? Do
you know

14 about this?

15 A. I think this question is pointless. Of course I do. Of course I

16 know about the right to self-determination. This is going too far.

17 Q. Well, then answer me, please: Where did you get the idea that,
as

18 you said, the Serbs in Croatia do not have a right to
self-determination?

19 Where did you get the idea, as you said on page 2 of your
statement, that

20 according to the constitution of 1974, Yugoslavia was a confederal
state?

21 You know yourself that this is untrue. Show me a single
constitutional

22 provision to this effect. Is this correct or not, Mr. Mesic?

23 A. The Presidency of Yugoslavia was established as a confederal

24 institution because all decisions were made for the most part by

25 consensus, and the accused knows this very well. He also knows very
well

Page 10641

1 that according to the constitution of 1974, the republics were
called

2 states, and he also knows that, by virtue of their association into

3 Yugoslavia, they also had the right to disassociate themselves from

4 Yugoslavia. When a threat arose that Croatia and Slovenia might
suffer

5 the same fate as Kosovo, Vojvodina, and Montenegro, Croatia made use
of

6 its right to disassociate itself, and the Badinter Commission
confirmed

7 this. Of course the Serbs have a right to their own state. That
state is

8 the Republic of Serbia. But it is well known that national
minorities

9 cannot ask to secede from the Republic of Croatia. They could ask
for

10 that but they could not realise it, because the Republic of Croatia
was

11 recognised in the borders established by Avnoj and the accused
knows this

12 very well.

13 Q. Do you know that according to the Yugoslav constitution, it was

14 the peoples and not the republics that had sovereignty? Do you
remember

15 that even the coat of arms of Yugoslavia had five torches,
represented

16 five peoples: The Serbs, the Croats, the Slovenes, the Macedonians
and the

17 Montenegrins, and then later on a sixth torch was added when the
Muslims

18 were declared a constituent people? Are you aware of this, Mr.
Mesic?

19 A. The constituent elements of the Federation were the republics,

20 plus two autonomous provinces: Vojvodina, and Kosovo. Those were
the

21 constituent elements of the Federation. Symbolism is one thing, but

22 constitutional provisions are quite another.

23 Q. You assert that in the constitutions of Yugoslavia and the

24 republics, it was not the sovereignty of peoples that was the
starting

25 point but the territory of the republics established in 1945; is
that what

Page 10642

1 you're claiming? I just want to be clear so as not to waste time.

2 A. I have said what I had to say about the constituent elements of

3 the Federation. Croatia had the right to self-determination, and the

4 Serbs in Croatia had the right to protection, to protection of their

5 collective rights and of their status as citizens of the Republic of

6 Croatia.

7 Q. Very well. Let us proceed, then. Let us proceed at a faster

8 pace, so please answer me yes or no: Is it correct that all the

9 constitutions of Croatia, until the amendments introduced by you in
1990,

10 had a provision about the Serbs as a constituent people, not a
ethnic

11 minority, as you have just said? For example, the constitution of
1945,

12 1963, 1974, the constitutional amendments of July 1990. So these

13 amendments of July 1990 for the first time left out the Serbs as a

14 constituent element of the Republic of Croatia. I'm referring now
to the

15 constitution of the Republic of Croatia. Did all the constitutions

16 contain a provision about the Serbian people as a constituent
people in

17 Croatia; yes or no?

18 A. One cannot reply to this question with yes or no. The

19 constitutions were enacted in different periods of time, in
different

20 situations, and in different international environments. The

21 constitution, therefore, had different provisions at different
points in

22 time. For example, the Yugoslav and the Croatian constitutions had
a

23 provision which other constitutions, for example, do not contain,
that

24 there are two kinds of groups: Narodi and Narodnosti, two kinds of

25 peoples, plus ethnic groups. The constitution was further developed
up

Page 10643

1 until 1990.

2 Q. So the fact that the Serbs were left out of the constitution was

3 a development.

4 Do you know that on the 14th of May, 1887, the Croatian parliament

5 enacted a provision on the use of the Cyrillic alphabet? Are you
aware of

6 this?

7 A. I was not aware of that particular piece of information, but I do

8 thank the accused for having given me this piece of information.
That is

9 truly meaningful for me.

10 Q. And do you know about the rest, that what the constitution --
what

11 the assembly of Croatia adopted in 1887 was abolished in 1990 by
your

12 parliament? They abolished the Cyrillic alphabet as an official

13 alphabet. Do you know about that? You went 150 years backwards. Do
you

14 know that?

15 A. Yet another piece of information, very important to me, as a

16 lawyer.

17 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Do you remember an entire series of laws,

18 not to mention taking over symbols, the symbols of the Nazi state
of the

19 independent state of Croatia, for example, the law on the Academy
of

20 Sciences and Arts, the Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts? In
article

21 1 it says that it is the legal successor of the academy from the
period

22 from 1941 to 1945. The budget for 1991 does not envisage a single
dinar

23 for the schools of Serbs in Croatia, but it does envisage money for

24 Italians, Czechs, Ruthenians, and other national minorities. The
law on

25 the government allows the government to take measures against
so-called

Page 10644

1 disobedient municipalities. The only executive government in Europe
that

2 has the right to dissolve municipalities. The law on education
refers to

3 the Croatian language only, and so on and so forth?

4 JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time. What is the question,

5 Mr. Milosevic?

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. The question is -- the question is: Is it correct that not only

8 through this behaviour and also the combination of this ethnic
intolerance

9 towards the Serbs, but it is also through the adoption of many laws,
the

10 Croatian authorities instigated nationalism and chauvinism not only
in

11 Croatia but also a discriminatory, an insulting attitude towards
Serbs in

12 Croatia. Is that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?

13 A. Croatia adopted laws that gave equal rights to all its citizens

14 and protect national minorities, all vulnerable groups, actually.

15 National minorities are vulnerable groups, and that is why Croatia
favours

16 positive discrimination of all vulnerable groups.

17 Q. Very well. Then give me a comment with regard to these following

18 statements: There are many such laws, and of course they did have
to

19 cause concern. For example, a meeting of the parliament on the 4th
of

20 October, 1990, the 4th of October, 1990, your own assembly. Damir
Majovic

21 says: "Do not trust the Serbs even when they bring gifts." Stjepan

22 Sulimanac says: "Persons who moved in after 1918, who moved into
Croatia

23 after 1918, a law should be passed with regard to such persons and
there

24 should be protection from them." Then MP Ivan Milas says: "We are
going

25 to use a sword in respect of your rights. The day of a final
showdown is

Page 10645

1 getting near." Another MP says: "All Serbs should be isolated like
Iraq

2 isolated the Kurds. A ghetto should be established for the Serbs."
And

3 Praljak, what's his name, one of the helmsmen of the HDZ said in
April

4 1990: "Outside the boys are already singing we are going to
slaughter the

5 Serbs." And so on and so forth. Is that the right kind of
atmosphere,

6 Mr. Mesic? Is that the atmosphere in which the Serbs were supposed
to

7 view everything that was happening to them with confidence? And in
the

8 meantime you dismissed practically all Serbs from the state

9 administration?

10 JUDGE MAY: One thing at a time. Now, you've read out a series --

11 you've read out a series of quotations which are said to have been
made in

12 the parliament.

13 Now, Mr. Mesic, you can deal with that. First of all, do you know

14 if these statements were made, or these sort of statements, and if
so, is

15 there anything that you can tell us about them?

16 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] There were different statements that

17 will were impermissible, and it is certain that such statements
harmed

18 Croatia. As for Slobodan Praljak, I must say that he was never a
member

19 of the HDZ. When the HDZ was established, he was one of President

20 Tudjman's major critics. Now, why were such statements made? I say
today

21 as well that they did not work to Croatia's advantage but to its

22 disadvantage. There were rallies of Serbs in various places on the
4th of

23 February, 1990. On the 4th of March, 1990, there was a rally in
Petrova

24 Gora of people from Lika, Kordun, Banja Luka, Bosanska Krajina, and
also

25 Vojvodina in Serbia.

Page 10646

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2

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French

13 and English transcripts.

14

15

16

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

Page 10647

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. Was that when Ante Markovic established his own party?

3 A. On the 27th of July, 1990, the Serb assembly passed its so-called

4 decision on Serb autonomy in Croatia. On the 1st of July, 1990 in
Kosovo

5 by Knin, an official statement was made that the Serb Autonomous
Krajina

6 was established in Croatia, its president being Milan Babic. On the
17th

7 of August, the first roadblocks were on the road in Benkovac, Knin
and

8 Gradacac. On the 13th of September, there were meetings and rallies
of

9 persons in Dvor and in various other places. In towns and in

10 municipalities in Croatia where there is a predominantly Serb
population,

11 there were inscriptions saying: "This is Serbia." So it is persons
who

12 came from Serbia who manipulated the Serb masses in Serbia? Why?
Because

13 Milosevic needed to bring about an insurgency of the Serbs in
Croatia so

14 that he would light the initial fuse for setting Bosnia-Herzegovina
on

15 fire, because he needed Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what the accused

16 actually did. That is why he should be held accountable. These
radical

17 statements, regrettably, are only in response to statements made by
the

18 accused.

19 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you see that you're not testifying about anything

20 here except your political and propaganda activities all this time?

21 Because you do not have a single fact here; you only have your own

22 positions and your attacks against Milosevic.

23 A. This is the trial of the accused Slobodan Milosevic. I have

24 sufficient facts in order to believe that he is guilty because he
planned

25 war, he carried out war, and he built into this plan a crime that
he

Page 10648

1 should be held accountable for.

2 Q. Very well.

3 JUDGE MAY: Let us get back to the subject-matter of the trial.

4 Yes. You are asking about the statements, Mr. Milosevic.

5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

6 Q. I put a question. I said: These laws and the atmosphere in

7 parliament, the atmosphere in Croatia, the dismissals of thousands
of

8 persons from the administration, from the police, from the media,
even

9 from the health sector, is that the kind of atmosphere that caused
concern

10 among the Serbs, or was it, as Mr. Mesic just put it now, was it
Milosevic

11 who caused concern and who led to this insurgency? Were these facts
of

12 life the thing that caused concern among them or did Milosevic come
from

13 Serbia to make them start a rebellion, now that I've quoted all of
this?

14 A. It wasn't the accused Milosevic who came. His emissaries came,

15 and they were the ones who started the insurgency in Croatia.

16 JUDGE MAY: Can you deal with the allegations which are made,

17 that, first of all, there were the dismissals of thousands of
persons from

18 the administration and the police and the media and the health
sector?

19 Now, can you deal with that, Mr. Mesic? Were thousands dismissed?

20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it is an exaggeration

21 to speak of thousands, but that there were dismissals is a fact.
There

22 were unnecessary dismissals. People also took those who dismissed
them to

23 court and won these cases. I think that these statements that are
radical

24 and inadmissible only work to Croatia's detriment, and I always
struggled

25 against that.

Page 10649

1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

2 Q. All right. So the atmosphere and the statements -- I mean, you

3 say now that it is negative, but the atmosphere was there, wasn't
it? So

4 it's not Milosevic who caused an insurgency among the Serbs; it is
your

5 laws, your pressures, your behaviour, your attacks against people.
Is

6 that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?

7 A. I have to reply once again, and I've already said this.

8 Q. If you've already said it, please don't read out what you've

9 already read out, please.

10 A. Those who wanted to cut off parts of Croatia, parts of the

11 Republic of Croatia, those are the ones who are to be blamed for
the

12 radical statements that were made.

13 Q. Well, look, somebody wanted to cut off parts of your territory.

14 Susanne Woodward from the Brooking Institution, an institution of
high

15 renown throughout the world, she says:

16 "Smashed stores fronts, fire bombs thrown and harassed and

17 arrested potential Serb leaders. In many parts of Croatia Serbs
were

18 expelled from jobs because of their nationality."

19 JUDGE MAY: You can call her to give evidence if you want. Yes.

20 Was there an atmosphere, Mr. Mesic, to cause the Serbs to have

21 fear at this time or is that not so?

22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an exaggeration to say that

23 there was an atmosphere of fear, but that there were improper and

24 inadmissible statements, that is a fact. Also there were dismissals
that

25 were wrong; however, people took those who dismissed them to court
and

Page 10650

1 they won those cases.

2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

3 Q. You mean those 100,000 Serbs who fled Croatia already in 1990,

4 they won these cases for their own jobs; is that what you're trying
to

5 say?

6 A. The accused is a lawyer, and he knows that only a person who is a

7 plaintiff can win a case.

8 Q. Well, we heard your own statements of a few minutes ago about

9 those murders, what kind of rule of law you had. We're going to hear

10 others later as well. I assume that you're not joking now when
you're

11 referring to --

12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time has come to move on from this

13 sort of argument, which doesn't assist the Court.

14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Do you remember the statement made by the

16 famous artist Edo Murtic in Novi Liste [phoen], a daily from
Rijeka, made

17 in June 2000? I'm quoting him: "I remember how a few months prior
to the

18 elections in 1990" - he is referring to his conversation with
Tudjman -

19 "how he came to me quite delighted, believing that he would turn me
into

20 his Augustincic. He thought that we would now do what the Ustashas
and

21 Pavelic did not do in 1941. He said that he would send 250.000
Serbs

22 packing away and the remaining 250.000 would be killed." So these
are

23 your own newspapers. It's not a Belgrade newspaper. This is Edo
Murtic,

24 a famous artist, painter, a well-known intellectual. Do you
remember that

25 statement of his about this conversation before the elections in
1990?

Page 10651

1 And I quoted Susan Woodward a few minutes ago and she is referring
to the

2 atmosphere before 1990, before the elections.

3 JUDGE MAY: The witness can deal with the conversation by -- or

4 comments by the artist which has been referred to.

5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The artist Edo Murtic is a friend of

6 mine, by the way, but I do admit that I haven't read that particular

7 statement of his.

8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

9 Q. All right. Tell me, please: I'm just going to briefly quote the

10 newspaper Feral Tribune on the 21st of April, 2001, autumn 2001,
there was

11 a hunt against the Serbs in 1991. It says: "Mercep's killers were

12 killing Serbs en masse in Pogracka [phoen], Puljane [phoen], they
were

13 taking people out of their homes in Zagreb and they were trying
them but

14 firing bullets into their heads. Norac Oreskovic and others applied

15 similar methods when dealing with the innocent Serbs of Gospic.

16 Spectacular Crystal Nights were organised in Zadar during which
tens of

17 houses were destroyed whose inhabitants had the wrong chromosomes."

18 Is that correct, Mr. Mesic? Is that what the Croatian newspaper

19 Feral Tribune said or did this Croatian newspaper lie when they
said that?

20 A. There were crimes, and I always asked for them to be
investigated

21 and the perpetrators to be punished. Croatia did not have
sufficient rule

22 of law, and after all, that is how I won the election, because I
have been

23 calling for true rule of law in Croatia. Crimes were committed and

24 perpetrators should be brought to justice. But that is no reason
for

25 destroying Dubrovnik, for destroying Vukovar, for destroying
Croatian

Page 10652

1 cities. Criminals should be prosecuted, but towns should not be

2 destroyed.

3 Q. Correct. Perpetrators should be prosecuted, perpetrators should

4 be tried, but the only question is: Who criminals were. Who were the

5 criminals? That's the only question. And criminals should certainly
be

6 prosecuted and brought to justice, certainly.

7 So that is the whole point. That is the inversion that was made,

8 Mr. Mesic; isn't that right? You are testifying here that I was the
one

9 who broke up Yugoslavia and you were in favour of Yugoslavia and any
child

10 in Yugoslavia knows --

11 A. I think that we can reach agreement on one thing very quickly

12 here. I am not the person on trial here.

13 Q. Well, that's the point.

14 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's time, Mr. Milosevic.

15 Half past. Twenty minutes.

16 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.

17 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.

18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.

19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

20 Q. I'm going to show you now that you weren't speaking the truth a

21 moment ago when we were discussing an issue and questions about the
people

22 who were fighting in Bosnia who were not volunteers. And when I
asked you

23 about your nephew, who was also in Bosnia, a Croatian soldier
there, and

24 he was not a volunteer. He was born in Slavonia so he was not from
Bosnia

25 either and had nothing to do with Bosnia, and you said that that
was not

Page 10653

1 true, not correct; isn't that so? Now take a look at your own
testimony

2 in a case - or rather, when you speak about this same subject, it is
page

3 7266 of the transcript - while you were testifying here in this same

4 building --

5 JUDGE MAY: This is, so we've got it, is this in -- not in

6 Dokmanovic?

7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it isn't. It's in the other

8 case, the other trial, where Mr. Mesic was a protected witness. And
so I

9 wish to adhere to the rules, although the Slobodna Dalmacija paper
did

10 publicise this. I don't want to make explicit mention of it. And

11 Mr. Mesic, as we can see, is a witness, has been a witness in many
cases,

12 a witness for the Prosecution, which also demonstrates this
inversion.

13 JUDGE MAY: No. That's just --

14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That I was talking about. All

15 right. But this is what it says here. May I read it out?

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. And I'm reading out your own transcript, not mine, when you're

18 talking about whether they were in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He says the

19 following: "Whether there were any, I cannot tell [In English] I
was not

20 an inspector, nor was it up to me to establish it. But my nephew
Vlatko

21 Mesic, who was a Croat soldier, he was in Bosnia. He came back from
there

22 and he was not a volunteer in Bosnia. He was born in Slavonia. He
has

23 nothing in common with Bosnia, but he was there."

24 Therefore, you told an untruth a moment ago. You even said that

25 your nephews were too young, whereas here in this transcript from
your

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13 English transcripts.

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Page 10655

1 testimony which was given under oath, you are saying something quite

2 different, in fact. Is that right, Mr. Mesic, or is it not?

3 A. My two nephews live in France, and two of them live in Belgrade.

4 And during the war, they were minors. It is a relation of mine, a
distant

5 cousin. The interpretation of that was probably erroneous. Who said

6 that -- who told me he was in Bosnia. That is what he told me and
that is

7 what I said.

8 Q. Very well.

9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I -- I didn't want to interrupt that

10 last exchange, given that it had started, but any further reference
to

11 protected testimony should itself be given in private session.

12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.

13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see why this should be given

14 in private session, Mr. May, when I am making no mention here of --

15 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter.

16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what it refers to, actually.

17 JUDGE MAY: Those are the Rules. Any reference to private-session

18 matters should be in private session. Yes, let's go on.

19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see that I have infringed

20 upon your procedure in any way by having brought that up.

21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

22 Q. When you were asked by a representative of the accused, did you
as

23 a speaker take any steps for this matter to be investigated?
Because of

24 course [In English] It is the assembly's responsibility regarding
the use

25 of the army outside its border. Did you form a commission? Did you
put

Page 10656

1 this issue on agenda --

2 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.

3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't, please. I don't want to

4 waste time. I won't carry on with that.

5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.

6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

7 Q. So when weren't you speaking the truth, Mr. Mesic: Now or then,

8 when you made that statement which was under oath again?

9 JUDGE MAY: He's given his explanation. If there's anything you

10 want to add, Mr. Mesic, you can.

11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The direct question was whether my

12 nephew was there, and I said no. A relative, a relation of mine,
was,

13 which means that individuals were there who were not born in
Bosnia. But

14 apart from that one individual that I did know, I wasn't able to
ascertain

15 who was there.

16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]

17 Q. Now, whether you say nephew or relative or distant cousin or

18 whatever I read out here, that's what it said, so there can be no
dilemmas

19 there or confusion. Let's move on.

20 Is it true that in your presence Tudjman said that at the end of

21 the war there would be 5 per cent of Serbs in Croatia, by the end
of the

22 war?

23 A. Yes, that is what he said. He said that was his assumption.

24 Q. Is it also true that he said that Tudjman thought that the 1938

25 solution for Croatia was the<br/><br/>(Message over 64 KB, truncated)