International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART XI
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10724
1 rebel Serbs. I don't want anybody to think that I am blaming the
Serbs in
2 Croatia. No. The greatest portion of Serbs lived in Zagreb, for
3 example. There were more of them living in Zagreb than the entire
Krajina
4 region. I'm talking about the insurgent Serbs, those who rebelled
and
5 those who wanted to annex Serbia, this to Serbia, and made that
decision,
6 and so did Milosevic's regime, led by him, and they put out the
slogan of
7 all Serbs living in one state. So those affiliated Serbs too. It is
true
8 that Serbia did not pass a decision which would make this legal, but
9 neither were they opposed to it.
10 Q. That is just not true. That, quite simply, is a lie. And any
11 mention of one state referred to Yugoslavia as a common interest,
the
12 common interest of all the Yugoslav peoples. And what I was saying
was
13 only in that way would the Serbs be able to live in one country if
we
14 preserve Yugoslavia, being that one country. But I also said that
all the
15 Muslims could live in one country if we were to preserve Yugoslavia
and
16 all the other nations and nationalities scattered around
Yugoslavia, and
17 nobody minded that at all. That is the truth, Mr. Mesic, and I
think that
18 your memory will serve you well there. But what you're doing now is
19 speculating. But Is what I'm saying right or not?
20 A. My memory serves me very well, thank you. Because the accused
21 said if the Slovenes want to leave, let them leave, and you should
go as
22 soon as possible. If the Croats want to leave, let them go too. But
23 quite obviously all the Serbs would remain in one single state. In
other
24 words, they remain in that state by virtue of their territory, the
state
25 that he calls Yugoslavia. I call it an invalid, handicapped
Yugoslavia.
Page 10725
1 He terms it otherwise.
2 Q. Mr. Mesic, from what you have just said, do you in fact confirm
3 the fact that the Serbs in Croatia had lost under your authority
4 the properties and characteristics of a constituent peoples, that is
to
5 say, a peoples realising their right to self-determination? Is that
what
6 you're bearing out, what you're confirming, the right that they
always
7 enjoyed under all the constitutions except the 1990 constitution? Is
that
8 what you're confirming by what you're saying now?
9 A. The Serbs realised their constitutional right to
10 self-determination and formed a republic, the Republic of Serbia. I
don't
11 know why -- I don't know --
12 Q. We're not talking about the Serbs in Serbia, Mr. Mesic. We're
13 talking about the Serbs in Croatia. It was the Serbs in Croatia who
14 had the status, enjoyed the status of a constituent people in
Croatia, and
15 that was not --
16 JUDGE MAY: This is degenerating into an argument. It doesn't
17 seem it's taking us anywhere. These may be matters which, in the
end,
18 we'll have to resolve, but it seems pointless going on about it
with this
19 witness. He's made his position clear. You've cross-examined him
20 thoroughly. Now, let's move on to any other topic that you want to
21 examine about.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. All right. Let me just ask this: Is it clear to you that when
24 you speak about Vojvodina and Kosovo, that you are in fact speaking
about
25 autonomous provinces within Serbia proper, so that therefore you
cannot
Page 10726
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10727
1 transfer this to Slovenia and Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina and
2 Macedonia, that same model, because the internal constitutional
changes in
3 Serbia were a matter for Serbia to decide, not a matter for Croatia
to
4 decide, not a matter for Croatia to decide? Vojvodina is not in
Croatia.
5 It is in Serbia. So do you deprive Serbia the right of settling
matters
6 in its own house?
7 A. I see that the accused is suffering from amnesia once again,
8 because it was the provinces which were a constitutive element of
the
9 Federation as well, both of Serbia but also a constituent element of
the
10 Federation as well, and that is the portion he deprived them of.
11 Q. I quite obviously don't have time to engage in this kind of
12 discussion and debate, but I think that constitutional experts are
the
13 ones who are well capable of dealing with these matters, and your
14 distorted concepts of the right of nations to self-determination
seems to
15 me to be --
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is all argument and comment. Now,
17 let's move on.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. The Territorial Defence in the republics, that it was under the
20 command of the Presidency and the Supreme Command and partly
controlled by
21 the republics, where the Territorial Defence of Serbia is
concerned, you
22 said, quite incorrectly, that the Territorial Defence units of
Serbia
23 waged war in Croatia because the TO of Serbia and Montenegro was
24 exclusively under the command of the army. You say that on page 19
of
25 your statement. How can you say something like that?
Page 10728
1 A. The Territorial Defence attacked Dubrovnik, together with the
2 rebels from Bosnia and Herzegovina. And with respect to the attack
on
3 Croatia, it was the army that was under the command of the General
Staff,
4 and together with the Territorial Defence, they attacked Croatian
towns
5 and villages. Units of the army arrived from Serbia, and in Bosnia
and
6 Herzegovina and Serbia they joined in the attacks and ethnic
cleansing.
7 This would have been impossible. It was not possible that no one in
8 Croatia saw that tanks were going from Serbia to Vukovar and other
parts
9 of Croatia. This is something that cannot be concealed. Somebody had
to
10 see that the army was coming from Serbia to Croatia during the war.
11 Q. Mr. Mesic, are you aware of the fact that the JNA was all over
the
12 territory of the former Yugoslavia and that therefore Croatia was
not a
13 demilitarised republic within the SFRY? When I drew up my demonic
plan,
14 as you say, the army then attacked Croatia. No. That was not the
case.
15 The army was already in Croatia, just as it was in Serbia and
everywhere
16 else in Yugoslavia. Is this clear to you? Is it clear to you that
this
17 was all happening when the army was being attacked, when there were
18 clashes with the army, when you were making decisions to drive out
the
19 Yugoslav army, not the Serbian army, but the Yugoslav army?
20 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm going to bring this to a close.
21 Mr. Mesic, it's put to you, first of all, that the Yugoslav army
22 was already in Croatia, so there was no question of it being
brought in,
23 and secondly, that that army was under attack. Would you deal with
those
24 two separate points, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do that gladly. From the
Page 10729
1 barracks of the JNA, which had by then become a Serbian army because
the
2 other nationalities had left it by then, it was this army that was
arming
3 the rebels, which is why they were under a blockade, why they were
4 surrounded, so that they could no longer arm those who were
attacking and
5 trying to topple the institutions of the Croatian state. Novi Sad is
not
6 in Croatia, but it was a Novi Sad corps that attacked Vukovar.
Belgrade
7 is certainly not in Croatia, but it was from Belgrade that guards
units
8 came to attack Vukovar. Somebody had to have seen this, at least
those
9 who, in that aggressive war, promoted those who participated in all
this
10 and decorated them. The accused knows very well who these people
were.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Mesic, as you know very well, military districts did not
13 coincide with the borders of the republics in the Federal Republic
of
14 Yugoslavia. They are still -- they still do not coincide with these
15 borders in Yugoslavia. For example, in the 2nd -- the 2nd Military
16 District covers a part of western Serbia and yet it's based in
Podgorica.
17 So there was a single JNA, a unitary JNA, and you made the decision
- and
18 I will tell you exactly when you did that - that it should be
driven out
19 of Croatia, that the barracks should be cut off, that electricity
and
20 water should be cut for the barracks, that soldiers should be
attacked,
21 that they should be beaten up, arrested, and so on and so forth.
Are you
22 aware of this or not, Mr. Mesic?
23 A. The accused knows full well that this is not true, that it's a
24 fabrication. I made no such decisions, nor was I in a position to
make
25 them. However, the accused knows very well that the JNA was not
allowed
Page 10730
1 to attack Croatian towns, and I would like to know when and where he
2 lodged a protest against this, against Serbian tanks, JNA tanks
going to
3 destroy towns in Croatia.
4 Q. Mr. Mesic, when Dubrovnik was being shelled, I was attending a
5 conference with Lord Carrington, together with your president, and
then I
6 said that any clash was crazy, that Dubrovnik was a Croatian town.
This
7 has nothing to do with what you're saying. But let us go back to
your
8 story about the Serbicised army, as you say, because the influence
of the
9 Serbian bloc is quite senseless. It doesn't make sense when we are
10 speaking of the JNA. General Kadijevic was half Croat, half
Serbian.
11 Adzic was from Herzegovina. Brovet was a Slovenian.
12 JUDGE MAY: You're not giving evidence. You're not giving
13 evidence.
14 It's being put, Mr. Mesic, that you're wrong when you say that
15 the JNA was becoming Serb. In particular, two generals are referred
to.
16 Would you like to deal with that.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not count anybody's blood
18 cells or look at their chromosomes. Individuals did remain because
they
19 were afraid for their survival, but that doesn't mean anything.
Most of
20 the Croats had left the JNA. All the Slovenians, except for Brovet,
and
21 perhaps one or two individuals had left. The Albanians had left the
22 army. The Bosnians had left the army. I'm merely putting forward
facts.
23 But exceptions only go to prove the rule.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that in 1999 or in the year 2000, even
then
Page 10731
1 the army of Yugoslavia was not ethnically pure, not only when we
look at
2 the composition of soldiers, but when we look at the composition of
the
3 generals, and this was ten years later. So why are you falsifying
facts?
4 Why are you manipulating facts in this way? You know that the JNA
then
5 had members in proportion to the ethnic -- general ethnic make-up,
as far
6 as soldiers go and also as far as generals go. There were even more
from
7 other republics than there were from Serbia. This was a Yugoslav
army.
8 You yourself said it was an integrating factor. So it doesn't make
sense
9 when you say that it was Serbia who took the JNA under its command.
10 JUDGE MAY: Another speech. Another speech.
11 It's said that you're wrong about the ethnic make-up, Mr. Mesic.
12 It says you're wrong about it in 1999 and 2000, but we're not
dealing with
13 those years. But dealing with the years which we are talking about,
which
14 would be 1991, can you give any evidence about the ethnic make-up,
or are
15 you relying on the behaviour of the army, your evidence about it
becoming
16 more Serb?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of the Croats in the JNA left
18 it when it became evident that the JNA was waging an aggressive war
19 against the Republic of Croatia. Most of the Slovenians in the JNA
left
20 it when it became completely evident that the army was waging an
21 aggressive war against Slovenia. The same happened in the case of
other
22 republics. Whether a few individuals remained is of less
importance.
23 Some individuals did remain. I assert that too. But the army was
24 implementing a policy that General Kadijevic admits was aimed at
setting
25 up a Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag boundary. This is what General
Page 10732
1 Kadijevic himself said, regardless of who his father and mother
were. I'm
2 not interested in that. But he was in the service of the greater
Serbian
3 policy and the aggression against the Republic of Croatia.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Very well. I assume that General Kadijevic can testify about that
6 and not you, Mr. Mesic. In its public announcement of the 1st of
October,
7 its communique, did your Presidency express concern because the
federal
8 organs and the assembly were no longer functioning, the Presidency
was
9 undergoing a crisis, and the president wanted to have extended
sessions to
10 be attended by representatives of the republic and federal
governments and
11 so on? Do you remember this? This is on page 8, paragraph 2 of your
12 statement.
13 A. I'm not su>
Transfer interrupted!
it's quite clear
14 that the federal institutions were not in fact functioning.
15 Q. Is it true that at the session of the 3rd of October, the
16 Presidency stated that Yugoslavia was facing an imminent threat of
war and
17 that this was not a session of a Rump Presidency but a session
attended by
18 six members of the Presidency? Is it not true that this was
functioning
19 in danger of imminent threat of war and that --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Would Mr. Milosevic please slow down.
21 A. No, this is not correct. Yugoslavia was not facing an imminent
22 threat of war. Yugoslavia was threatened by Serbian aggression
against
23 parts of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Mesic, apart from these political qualifications which are
Page 10733
1 quite inadequate, you have no arguments to put forward. You are
speaking
2 of a war against Yugoslavia, an illegal and unconstitutional
secession,
3 it's expulsion of units of the Yugoslav army from the territory of
4 Croatia. Please, your fabrication about what General Kadijevic said
--
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're not here to listen to more
6 speeches. We're almost finished today. It may be of assistance to
know
7 how long do you think you might require in re-examination, Mr. Nice?
8 MR. NICE: It could be 20 minutes I thought would have been more
9 than possible.
10 JUDGE MAY: There will be that available. We'll have to decide
11 how the time goes is to be divided.
12 MR. NICE: There are important issues raised with this witness and
13 it's only right that a proper record should be left in the evidence
about
14 what the true position is.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mesic, would you be available for longer than
17 one hour tomorrow morning? Is that possible?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to be in Zagreb by 12.00
19 noon. I need at least an hour to get there, or an hour and a half,
to get
20 to Zagreb. Maybe an hour and a half. I could be here for an hour
and a
21 half, from 9.00 to 10.30.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that would be helpful. Yes.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll give the accused another half hour
25 had, Mr. Tapuskovic half an hour, Prosecution 20 minutes.
Page 10734
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
* Continued at: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-12.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two
organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in
his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this
phase of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of
racism, violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news
soon. These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
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=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART XI
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10724
1 rebel Serbs. I don't want anybody to think that I am blaming the
Serbs in
2 Croatia. No. The greatest portion of Serbs lived in Zagreb, for
3 example. There were more of them living in Zagreb than the entire
Krajina
4 region. I'm talking about the insurgent Serbs, those who rebelled
and
5 those who wanted to annex Serbia, this to Serbia, and made that
decision,
6 and so did Milosevic's regime, led by him, and they put out the
slogan of
7 all Serbs living in one state. So those affiliated Serbs too. It is
true
8 that Serbia did not pass a decision which would make this legal, but
9 neither were they opposed to it.
10 Q. That is just not true. That, quite simply, is a lie. And any
11 mention of one state referred to Yugoslavia as a common interest,
the
12 common interest of all the Yugoslav peoples. And what I was saying
was
13 only in that way would the Serbs be able to live in one country if
we
14 preserve Yugoslavia, being that one country. But I also said that
all the
15 Muslims could live in one country if we were to preserve Yugoslavia
and
16 all the other nations and nationalities scattered around
Yugoslavia, and
17 nobody minded that at all. That is the truth, Mr. Mesic, and I
think that
18 your memory will serve you well there. But what you're doing now is
19 speculating. But Is what I'm saying right or not?
20 A. My memory serves me very well, thank you. Because the accused
21 said if the Slovenes want to leave, let them leave, and you should
go as
22 soon as possible. If the Croats want to leave, let them go too. But
23 quite obviously all the Serbs would remain in one single state. In
other
24 words, they remain in that state by virtue of their territory, the
state
25 that he calls Yugoslavia. I call it an invalid, handicapped
Yugoslavia.
Page 10725
1 He terms it otherwise.
2 Q. Mr. Mesic, from what you have just said, do you in fact confirm
3 the fact that the Serbs in Croatia had lost under your authority
4 the properties and characteristics of a constituent peoples, that is
to
5 say, a peoples realising their right to self-determination? Is that
what
6 you're bearing out, what you're confirming, the right that they
always
7 enjoyed under all the constitutions except the 1990 constitution? Is
that
8 what you're confirming by what you're saying now?
9 A. The Serbs realised their constitutional right to
10 self-determination and formed a republic, the Republic of Serbia. I
don't
11 know why -- I don't know --
12 Q. We're not talking about the Serbs in Serbia, Mr. Mesic. We're
13 talking about the Serbs in Croatia. It was the Serbs in Croatia who
14 had the status, enjoyed the status of a constituent people in
Croatia, and
15 that was not --
16 JUDGE MAY: This is degenerating into an argument. It doesn't
17 seem it's taking us anywhere. These may be matters which, in the
end,
18 we'll have to resolve, but it seems pointless going on about it
with this
19 witness. He's made his position clear. You've cross-examined him
20 thoroughly. Now, let's move on to any other topic that you want to
21 examine about.
22 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
23 Q. All right. Let me just ask this: Is it clear to you that when
24 you speak about Vojvodina and Kosovo, that you are in fact speaking
about
25 autonomous provinces within Serbia proper, so that therefore you
cannot
Page 10726
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10727
1 transfer this to Slovenia and Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina and
2 Macedonia, that same model, because the internal constitutional
changes in
3 Serbia were a matter for Serbia to decide, not a matter for Croatia
to
4 decide, not a matter for Croatia to decide? Vojvodina is not in
Croatia.
5 It is in Serbia. So do you deprive Serbia the right of settling
matters
6 in its own house?
7 A. I see that the accused is suffering from amnesia once again,
8 because it was the provinces which were a constitutive element of
the
9 Federation as well, both of Serbia but also a constituent element of
the
10 Federation as well, and that is the portion he deprived them of.
11 Q. I quite obviously don't have time to engage in this kind of
12 discussion and debate, but I think that constitutional experts are
the
13 ones who are well capable of dealing with these matters, and your
14 distorted concepts of the right of nations to self-determination
seems to
15 me to be --
16 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, this is all argument and comment. Now,
17 let's move on.
18 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
19 Q. The Territorial Defence in the republics, that it was under the
20 command of the Presidency and the Supreme Command and partly
controlled by
21 the republics, where the Territorial Defence of Serbia is
concerned, you
22 said, quite incorrectly, that the Territorial Defence units of
Serbia
23 waged war in Croatia because the TO of Serbia and Montenegro was
24 exclusively under the command of the army. You say that on page 19
of
25 your statement. How can you say something like that?
Page 10728
1 A. The Territorial Defence attacked Dubrovnik, together with the
2 rebels from Bosnia and Herzegovina. And with respect to the attack
on
3 Croatia, it was the army that was under the command of the General
Staff,
4 and together with the Territorial Defence, they attacked Croatian
towns
5 and villages. Units of the army arrived from Serbia, and in Bosnia
and
6 Herzegovina and Serbia they joined in the attacks and ethnic
cleansing.
7 This would have been impossible. It was not possible that no one in
8 Croatia saw that tanks were going from Serbia to Vukovar and other
parts
9 of Croatia. This is something that cannot be concealed. Somebody had
to
10 see that the army was coming from Serbia to Croatia during the war.
11 Q. Mr. Mesic, are you aware of the fact that the JNA was all over
the
12 territory of the former Yugoslavia and that therefore Croatia was
not a
13 demilitarised republic within the SFRY? When I drew up my demonic
plan,
14 as you say, the army then attacked Croatia. No. That was not the
case.
15 The army was already in Croatia, just as it was in Serbia and
everywhere
16 else in Yugoslavia. Is this clear to you? Is it clear to you that
this
17 was all happening when the army was being attacked, when there were
18 clashes with the army, when you were making decisions to drive out
the
19 Yugoslav army, not the Serbian army, but the Yugoslav army?
20 JUDGE MAY: No. I'm going to bring this to a close.
21 Mr. Mesic, it's put to you, first of all, that the Yugoslav army
22 was already in Croatia, so there was no question of it being
brought in,
23 and secondly, that that army was under attack. Would you deal with
those
24 two separate points, please.
25 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I will do that gladly. From the
Page 10729
1 barracks of the JNA, which had by then become a Serbian army because
the
2 other nationalities had left it by then, it was this army that was
arming
3 the rebels, which is why they were under a blockade, why they were
4 surrounded, so that they could no longer arm those who were
attacking and
5 trying to topple the institutions of the Croatian state. Novi Sad is
not
6 in Croatia, but it was a Novi Sad corps that attacked Vukovar.
Belgrade
7 is certainly not in Croatia, but it was from Belgrade that guards
units
8 came to attack Vukovar. Somebody had to have seen this, at least
those
9 who, in that aggressive war, promoted those who participated in all
this
10 and decorated them. The accused knows very well who these people
were.
11 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
12 Q. Mr. Mesic, as you know very well, military districts did not
13 coincide with the borders of the republics in the Federal Republic
of
14 Yugoslavia. They are still -- they still do not coincide with these
15 borders in Yugoslavia. For example, in the 2nd -- the 2nd Military
16 District covers a part of western Serbia and yet it's based in
Podgorica.
17 So there was a single JNA, a unitary JNA, and you made the decision
- and
18 I will tell you exactly when you did that - that it should be
driven out
19 of Croatia, that the barracks should be cut off, that electricity
and
20 water should be cut for the barracks, that soldiers should be
attacked,
21 that they should be beaten up, arrested, and so on and so forth.
Are you
22 aware of this or not, Mr. Mesic?
23 A. The accused knows full well that this is not true, that it's a
24 fabrication. I made no such decisions, nor was I in a position to
make
25 them. However, the accused knows very well that the JNA was not
allowed
Page 10730
1 to attack Croatian towns, and I would like to know when and where he
2 lodged a protest against this, against Serbian tanks, JNA tanks
going to
3 destroy towns in Croatia.
4 Q. Mr. Mesic, when Dubrovnik was being shelled, I was attending a
5 conference with Lord Carrington, together with your president, and
then I
6 said that any clash was crazy, that Dubrovnik was a Croatian town.
This
7 has nothing to do with what you're saying. But let us go back to
your
8 story about the Serbicised army, as you say, because the influence
of the
9 Serbian bloc is quite senseless. It doesn't make sense when we are
10 speaking of the JNA. General Kadijevic was half Croat, half
Serbian.
11 Adzic was from Herzegovina. Brovet was a Slovenian.
12 JUDGE MAY: You're not giving evidence. You're not giving
13 evidence.
14 It's being put, Mr. Mesic, that you're wrong when you say that
15 the JNA was becoming Serb. In particular, two generals are referred
to.
16 Would you like to deal with that.
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I did not count anybody's blood
18 cells or look at their chromosomes. Individuals did remain because
they
19 were afraid for their survival, but that doesn't mean anything.
Most of
20 the Croats had left the JNA. All the Slovenians, except for Brovet,
and
21 perhaps one or two individuals had left. The Albanians had left the
22 army. The Bosnians had left the army. I'm merely putting forward
facts.
23 But exceptions only go to prove the rule.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that in 1999 or in the year 2000, even
then
Page 10731
1 the army of Yugoslavia was not ethnically pure, not only when we
look at
2 the composition of soldiers, but when we look at the composition of
the
3 generals, and this was ten years later. So why are you falsifying
facts?
4 Why are you manipulating facts in this way? You know that the JNA
then
5 had members in proportion to the ethnic -- general ethnic make-up,
as far
6 as soldiers go and also as far as generals go. There were even more
from
7 other republics than there were from Serbia. This was a Yugoslav
army.
8 You yourself said it was an integrating factor. So it doesn't make
sense
9 when you say that it was Serbia who took the JNA under its command.
10 JUDGE MAY: Another speech. Another speech.
11 It's said that you're wrong about the ethnic make-up, Mr. Mesic.
12 It says you're wrong about it in 1999 and 2000, but we're not
dealing with
13 those years. But dealing with the years which we are talking about,
which
14 would be 1991, can you give any evidence about the ethnic make-up,
or are
15 you relying on the behaviour of the army, your evidence about it
becoming
16 more Serb?
17 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Most of the Croats in the JNA left
18 it when it became evident that the JNA was waging an aggressive war
19 against the Republic of Croatia. Most of the Slovenians in the JNA
left
20 it when it became completely evident that the army was waging an
21 aggressive war against Slovenia. The same happened in the case of
other
22 republics. Whether a few individuals remained is of less
importance.
23 Some individuals did remain. I assert that too. But the army was
24 implementing a policy that General Kadijevic admits was aimed at
setting
25 up a Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag boundary. This is what General
Page 10732
1 Kadijevic himself said, regardless of who his father and mother
were. I'm
2 not interested in that. But he was in the service of the greater
Serbian
3 policy and the aggression against the Republic of Croatia.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Very well. I assume that General Kadijevic can testify about that
6 and not you, Mr. Mesic. In its public announcement of the 1st of
October,
7 its communique, did your Presidency express concern because the
federal
8 organs and the assembly were no longer functioning, the Presidency
was
9 undergoing a crisis, and the president wanted to have extended
sessions to
10 be attended by representatives of the republic and federal
governments and
11 so on? Do you remember this? This is on page 8, paragraph 2 of your
12 statement.
13 A. I'm not su>
Transfer interrupted!
it's quite clear
14 that the federal institutions were not in fact functioning.
15 Q. Is it true that at the session of the 3rd of October, the
16 Presidency stated that Yugoslavia was facing an imminent threat of
war and
17 that this was not a session of a Rump Presidency but a session
attended by
18 six members of the Presidency? Is it not true that this was
functioning
19 in danger of imminent threat of war and that --
20 THE INTERPRETER: Would Mr. Milosevic please slow down.
21 A. No, this is not correct. Yugoslavia was not facing an imminent
22 threat of war. Yugoslavia was threatened by Serbian aggression
against
23 parts of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. Mr. Mesic, apart from these political qualifications which are
Page 10733
1 quite inadequate, you have no arguments to put forward. You are
speaking
2 of a war against Yugoslavia, an illegal and unconstitutional
secession,
3 it's expulsion of units of the Yugoslav army from the territory of
4 Croatia. Please, your fabrication about what General Kadijevic said
--
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, we're not here to listen to more
6 speeches. We're almost finished today. It may be of assistance to
know
7 how long do you think you might require in re-examination, Mr. Nice?
8 MR. NICE: It could be 20 minutes I thought would have been more
9 than possible.
10 JUDGE MAY: There will be that available. We'll have to decide
11 how the time goes is to be divided.
12 MR. NICE: There are important issues raised with this witness and
13 it's only right that a proper record should be left in the evidence
about
14 what the true position is.
15 [Trial Chamber confers]
16 JUDGE ROBINSON: Mr. Mesic, would you be available for longer than
17 one hour tomorrow morning? Is that possible?
18 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have to be in Zagreb by 12.00
19 noon. I need at least an hour to get there, or an hour and a half,
to get
20 to Zagreb. Maybe an hour and a half. I could be here for an hour
and a
21 half, from 9.00 to 10.30.
22 JUDGE ROBINSON: Yes, that would be helpful. Yes.
23 [Trial Chamber confers]
24 JUDGE MAY: Very well. We'll give the accused another half hour
25 had, Mr. Tapuskovic half an hour, Prosecution 20 minutes.
Page 10734
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
* Continued at: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-12.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two
organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in
his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this
phase of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of
racism, violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news
soon. These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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have an ICDSM
secure server so you can contribute directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
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