International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART XII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10735
1 You've got another five minutes. Do you want to ask some more
2 questions, Mr. Milosevic, this afternoon, or are you finished for the
day?
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Were your claim correct, what sort of
5 obligation would the army have to obey me had I ordered the army, the
then
6 JNA, to do something? Why would they have had to obey me? How could I
7 have issued them with orders?
8 A. Formally they were under no obligation. That's precisely the
9 point. You issued orders to that army, and when I asked General
Kadijevic
10 why he was obeying only you, he said: Everybody else in Serbia is
even
11 worse. You should discuss this with General Kadijevic.
12 Q. As far as I know, you asked him why he was communicating with me
13 at all, not why he was obeying me. Because, as you know, that is
untrue.
14 A. General Kadijevic, as the Secretary of National Defence, never,
15 throughout my term of office in Belgrade, came to see me. Just recall
how
16 many times you talked to him.
17 Q. Less than you, I assume as his supreme commander.
18 A. You're making me laugh again. This is no place for us to laugh.
19 Q. On page 17 of your statement, you say that the Rump Presidency
20 implemented a putsch, a coup d'etat. Was this a Rump Presidency
because
21 you obstructed its functioning and those who followed you in your
22 obstruction, or was it a Rump Presidency because those who continued
to
23 attend the sessions were continuing to fulfil their obligations? Was
it a
24 Rump Presidency because you left it or because they remained at their
25 posts performing their duty? Is there any logic in this, Mr. Mesic?
Page 10736
1 A. The Rump Presidency could not be established by any legal and
2 legitimate means, by any extensive interpretations of the
constitution.
3 This was an illegal group of people which introduced a state of
emergency,
4 at the suggestion of Slobodan Milosevic, because he was the only one
who
5 had any influence over those people and over that Rump Presidency. And
6 let me give you a piece of information. My advisor remained in
Belgrade.
7 The room, the premises where the Presidency and later the Rump
Presidency
8 had its sessions had a connecting door leading to my former cabinet.
My
9 advisor listened to what they were talking about. He came to Croatia
by
10 way of Hungary and reported to me, so that I knew what the Rump
Presidency
11 was discussing. Slobodan Milosevic asked that Vukovar be left alone
and
12 that the army go to Zagreb. And General Kadijevic said that this was
13 impossible because the Croats had gained in military strength to such
an
14 extent that they would attack his flanks and he would not be able to
reach
15 Zagreb. So the opinion prevailed in the end that Vukovar had to be
16 destroyed. This is my interpretation now, but it was the accused who
17 asked that Zagreb be attacked. The witness to this is my advisor who
told
18 me this.
19 JUDGE MAY: Let's follow this. When were you told that there had
20 been this discussion about Vukovar, Mr. Mesic? What sort of date are
we
21 dealing with?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the time when I was not
23 going to Belgrade, when there were frequent army attacks from Novi
Sad and
24 Belgrade against Vukovar, and my advisor was still in Belgrade. He
was in
25 Belgrade until Vukovar fell. And he used to come to see me by way of
Page 10737
1 Hungary, via Hungary.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that the presidents of the republics at the
4 session of the Presidency, that they arrived only rarely and by
5 invitation, and that except on those rare occasions when all the other
6 presidents of the republics were present, I never took part in any
7 sessions of the Presidency? How can you put forward such fabrications,
8 such falsehoods? You should know that. And you say this was put to you
9 by your advisor --
10 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested, Mr. Mesic, that this is not true.
11 Perhaps you could answer that and then we'll adjourn.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I have to say that the accused
13 is now speculating. These are not sessions of the Presidency of the
SFRY,
14 because I know very well how any session chaired by me was convocated
[As
15 interpreted]. I'm speaking about sessions of the Rump Presidency. Who
16 they invited and how, I don't know. I only know what my advisor told
me.
17 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's 2.00. Tomorrow
18 morning -- you can go on tomorrow morning about this.
19 JUDGE KWON: Before we adjourn and before too late, I'd like to
20 suggest the registrar to exhibit Mr. Mesic's transcript the in
Dokmanovic,
21 which we didn't.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I believe it was marked Exhibit 329.
23 JUDGE KWON: Those are exhibits.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I will look into that.
25 MR. NICE: I think the position is that part of the transcript was
Page 10738
1 marked on its side as exhibited pursuant to the 92 bis package and the
2 other part wasn't. So there might be grounds for simply taking the
whole
3 Dokmanovic transcript and exhibiting it as His Honour Judge Kwon
proposes.
4 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. First of all, we'll deal with the
5 exhibit number. Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution's Exhibit 331.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked that the other transcript,
8 which contains a more extensive testimony by Mr. Mesic, also be
tendered
9 into evidence. I will not say what the case is, because he was a
10 protected witness in that case.
11 JUDGE MAY: We haven't seen that. Is there any objection to that
12 being done?
13 MR. NICE: Can I think about that over night. One of my problems
14 is is that in two cases the page references of the accused don't
match the
15 transcript I have and I haven't been able to find the references he
made.
16 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that overnight. Meanwhile, I would
17 remind everybody that we are sitting tomorrow from 9.00 in the
morning
18 until half past 4.00, 4.00 to half past tomorrow, 4.00 or half past
19 tomorrow.
20 Mr. Mesic, would you be back, please, for the first session
21 tomorrow. Thank you. 9.00 tomorrow.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.04 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of
24 October 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
25
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two
organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his
defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase
of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is happening
in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news soon.
These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM
secure server so you can contribute directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
ICDSM office, USA: 1 617 916-1705
SLOBODA (Freedom) Association office, Belgrade: 381 63 279 819
You can Contribute using PayPal at:
https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=icdsm%40aol.com
PayPal accepts VISA and MasterCard
You can Contribute by mail to:
ICDSM
831 Beacon St., #295
Newton Centre, MA 02459 (USA)
- OR -
You can Contribute by wire transfer to Sloboda Association
Intermediary:
UBS AG
Zurich, Switzerland
Swift Code: UBSWCHZH
Account with:
/ 756 - CHF
/ 840 - USD
/ 978 - EUR
Kmercijalna Banka AD
SV. Save 14, 11000 Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia
Swift Code: KOBBYUBG
Beneficiary: Account No. 5428-1246-16154-6
SLOBODA
Rajiceva 16, 11000 Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia
Thank you!
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
Subscribe to the ICDSM email list at
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/maillist.htm
Receive articles posted at emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
Send the link to this text to a friend! If you are receiving this
article via e-mail please forward it to a friend.
=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART XII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10735
1 You've got another five minutes. Do you want to ask some more
2 questions, Mr. Milosevic, this afternoon, or are you finished for the
day?
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Were your claim correct, what sort of
5 obligation would the army have to obey me had I ordered the army, the
then
6 JNA, to do something? Why would they have had to obey me? How could I
7 have issued them with orders?
8 A. Formally they were under no obligation. That's precisely the
9 point. You issued orders to that army, and when I asked General
Kadijevic
10 why he was obeying only you, he said: Everybody else in Serbia is
even
11 worse. You should discuss this with General Kadijevic.
12 Q. As far as I know, you asked him why he was communicating with me
13 at all, not why he was obeying me. Because, as you know, that is
untrue.
14 A. General Kadijevic, as the Secretary of National Defence, never,
15 throughout my term of office in Belgrade, came to see me. Just recall
how
16 many times you talked to him.
17 Q. Less than you, I assume as his supreme commander.
18 A. You're making me laugh again. This is no place for us to laugh.
19 Q. On page 17 of your statement, you say that the Rump Presidency
20 implemented a putsch, a coup d'etat. Was this a Rump Presidency
because
21 you obstructed its functioning and those who followed you in your
22 obstruction, or was it a Rump Presidency because those who continued
to
23 attend the sessions were continuing to fulfil their obligations? Was
it a
24 Rump Presidency because you left it or because they remained at their
25 posts performing their duty? Is there any logic in this, Mr. Mesic?
Page 10736
1 A. The Rump Presidency could not be established by any legal and
2 legitimate means, by any extensive interpretations of the
constitution.
3 This was an illegal group of people which introduced a state of
emergency,
4 at the suggestion of Slobodan Milosevic, because he was the only one
who
5 had any influence over those people and over that Rump Presidency. And
6 let me give you a piece of information. My advisor remained in
Belgrade.
7 The room, the premises where the Presidency and later the Rump
Presidency
8 had its sessions had a connecting door leading to my former cabinet.
My
9 advisor listened to what they were talking about. He came to Croatia
by
10 way of Hungary and reported to me, so that I knew what the Rump
Presidency
11 was discussing. Slobodan Milosevic asked that Vukovar be left alone
and
12 that the army go to Zagreb. And General Kadijevic said that this was
13 impossible because the Croats had gained in military strength to such
an
14 extent that they would attack his flanks and he would not be able to
reach
15 Zagreb. So the opinion prevailed in the end that Vukovar had to be
16 destroyed. This is my interpretation now, but it was the accused who
17 asked that Zagreb be attacked. The witness to this is my advisor who
told
18 me this.
19 JUDGE MAY: Let's follow this. When were you told that there had
20 been this discussion about Vukovar, Mr. Mesic? What sort of date are
we
21 dealing with?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the time when I was not
23 going to Belgrade, when there were frequent army attacks from Novi
Sad and
24 Belgrade against Vukovar, and my advisor was still in Belgrade. He
was in
25 Belgrade until Vukovar fell. And he used to come to see me by way of
Page 10737
1 Hungary, via Hungary.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that the presidents of the republics at the
4 session of the Presidency, that they arrived only rarely and by
5 invitation, and that except on those rare occasions when all the other
6 presidents of the republics were present, I never took part in any
7 sessions of the Presidency? How can you put forward such fabrications,
8 such falsehoods? You should know that. And you say this was put to you
9 by your advisor --
10 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested, Mr. Mesic, that this is not true.
11 Perhaps you could answer that and then we'll adjourn.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I have to say that the accused
13 is now speculating. These are not sessions of the Presidency of the
SFRY,
14 because I know very well how any session chaired by me was convocated
[As
15 interpreted]. I'm speaking about sessions of the Rump Presidency. Who
16 they invited and how, I don't know. I only know what my advisor told
me.
17 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's 2.00. Tomorrow
18 morning -- you can go on tomorrow morning about this.
19 JUDGE KWON: Before we adjourn and before too late, I'd like to
20 suggest the registrar to exhibit Mr. Mesic's transcript the in
Dokmanovic,
21 which we didn't.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I believe it was marked Exhibit 329.
23 JUDGE KWON: Those are exhibits.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I will look into that.
25 MR. NICE: I think the position is that part of the transcript was
Page 10738
1 marked on its side as exhibited pursuant to the 92 bis package and the
2 other part wasn't. So there might be grounds for simply taking the
whole
3 Dokmanovic transcript and exhibiting it as His Honour Judge Kwon
proposes.
4 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. First of all, we'll deal with the
5 exhibit number. Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution's Exhibit 331.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked that the other transcript,
8 which contains a more extensive testimony by Mr. Mesic, also be
tendered
9 into evidence. I will not say what the case is, because he was a
10 protected witness in that case.
11 JUDGE MAY: We haven't seen that. Is there any objection to that
12 being done?
13 MR. NICE: Can I think about that over night. One of my problems
14 is is that in two cases the page references of the accused don't
match the
15 transcript I have and I haven't been able to find the references he
made.
16 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that overnight. Meanwhile, I would
17 remind everybody that we are sitting tomorrow from 9.00 in the
morning
18 until half past 4.00, 4.00 to half past tomorrow, 4.00 or half past
19 tomorrow.
20 Mr. Mesic, would you be back, please, for the first session
21 tomorrow. Thank you. 9.00 tomorrow.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.04 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of
24 October 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
25
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two
organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his
defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase
of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is happening
in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news soon.
These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM
secure server so you can contribute directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
ICDSM office, USA: 1 617 916-1705
SLOBODA (Freedom) Association office, Belgrade: 381 63 279 819
You can Contribute using PayPal at:
https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=icdsm%40aol.com
PayPal accepts VISA and MasterCard
You can Contribute by mail to:
ICDSM
831 Beacon St., #295
Newton Centre, MA 02459 (USA)
- OR -
You can Contribute by wire transfer to Sloboda Association
Intermediary:
UBS AG
Zurich, Switzerland
Swift Code: UBSWCHZH
Account with:
/ 756 - CHF
/ 840 - USD
/ 978 - EUR
Kmercijalna Banka AD
SV. Save 14, 11000 Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia
Swift Code: KOBBYUBG
Beneficiary: Account No. 5428-1246-16154-6
SLOBODA
Rajiceva 16, 11000 Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia
Thank you!
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm