1. "Fearsome Muslim warlord eludes Bosnian Serb forces"
(Toronto Star 16/08/1995)
2. Interview with Hakija Meholjic, president of Social Democratic
Party for Srebrenica
(Dani 22/06/1998)
=== 1 ===
Full Text of Reporter's Account of Evening Spent with Commander of
Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica
URL is
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/oric.htm
Join our email list at
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Send the link to this text to a
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==========================================================F
Full Text of Reporter's Account
of Evening Spent with
Commander of Bosnian Muslims
in Srebrenica
[Posted 21 December 2002]
==========================================================
Dear Emperor's Clothes,
Re: "A Rare Glimpse at the
Reality of the Bosnian War "
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/gorazde.htm
Thanks for this little antidote to
the view of the Jugoslavian wars
peddled so assiduously by the
mainstream media! One minor
suggestion: if possible, it would be
nice to have access to the entire
Toronto Star article in which
Nasir Oric boasts about his
"Greatest Hits." That way,
Emperor's Clothes would not
open itself to an accusation of
selective citation....
H. Day
Norway
***
Dear Mr. Day,
The article can be accessed only
on special search engines, those
which archive past news. (E.g.,
Lexis) Therefore, I cannot give a
url. However, here is the full text.
Best regards,
Jared Israel
***
The Toronto Star
July 16, 1995, Sunday, SUNDAY
SECOND EDITION
SECTION: NEWS; Pg. A1
LENGTH: 816 words
HEADLINE: Fearsome Muslim
warlord eludes Bosnian Serb
forces
BYLINE: Bill Schiller Toronto
Star
DATELINE: BELGRADE,
Yugoslavia
BODY:
BELGRADE, Yugoslavia - When
Bosnian Serb commander Gen.
Ratko Mladic swept triumphantly
into Srebrenica last week, he not
only wanted to sweep Srebrenica
clean of Muslims - he wanted
Nasir Oric.
In Mladic's view, the powerfully
built Muslim commander had
made life too difficult and too
deadly for Serb communities
nearby.
Even though the Serbs had
Srebrenica surrounded, Oric was
still mounting commando raids by
night against Serb targets.
Oric, as blood-thirsty a warrior as
ever crossed a battlefield, escaped
Srebrenica before it fell. Some
believe he may be leading the
Bosnian Muslim forces in the
nearby enclaves of Zepa and
Gorazde. Last night these forces
seized armored personnel carriers
and other weapons from U.N.
peacekeepers in order to better
protect themselves.
Oric is a fearsome man, and proud
of it.
I met him in January, 1994, in his
own home in Serb-surrounded
Srebrenica.
On a cold and snowy night, I sat in
his living room watching a
shocking video version of what
might have been called Nasir
Oric's Greatest Hits.
There were burning houses, dead
bodies, severed heads, and people
fleeing.
Oric grinned throughout, admiring
his handiwork.
"We ambushed them," he said
when a number of dead Serbs
appeared on the screen.
The next sequence of dead bodies
had been done in by explosives:
"We launched those guys to the
moon," he boasted.
When footage of a bullet-marked
ghost town appeared without any
visible bodies, Oric hastened to
announce: "We killed 114 Serbs
there."
Later there were celebrations,
with singers with wobbly voices
chanting his praises.
These video reminiscences,
apparently, were from what
Muslims regard as Oric's glory
days. That was before most of
eastern Bosnia fell and Srebrenica
became a "safe zone" with U.N.
peacekeepers inside - and Serbs
on the outside.
Lately, however, Oric increased
his hit-and-run attacks at night.
And in Mladic's view, it was far
too successful for a community
that was supposed to be
suppressed.
The Serbs regard Oric, once Serb
President Slobodan Milosevic's
personal bodyguard, as a war
criminal.
But they don't want to send him to
the international war crimes
tribunal in The Hague,
Netherlands. They want to track
him down and kill him.
The only songs they want sung of
Nasir Oric are funeral dirges.
But that hasn't happened.
Srebrenica, surrounded by 3,000
armed Serbs as it was then, was a
strange town. It held a desperate
kind of life - a life in suspended
animation.
People talked about what they
used to do, or used to be. Or about
what they would do or would
become once they were free
again.
Sleeping beneath the sheltering
sky near Tuzla as Srebrenica's
surviving residents did last week
- after having been driven from
their homes - was not in their
catalogue of expectations.
I remember steep streets lined
with snow and, everywhere,
firewood.
Srebrenica, an old silver mining
town, was built to hold 4,500
residents, but was then crammed
with 22,500. And the overall
pocket, some 14 kilometres wide
by 16 kilometres long, had
swelled to 46,000 in all.
It had the look and feel of an
overcrowded, somewhat
dilapidated, ski resort town.
But it was anything but.
Still, people were friendly. The
face of an outsider, an
unexplained newcomer, came as a
pleasant surprise to them and I
was welcomed into their homes,
served tea brewed on makeshift
firewood stoves, and treated with
kindness.
There was, even then, some
tension in the air about our
Canadian peacekeepers there. But
they were still doing a good job -
even an excellent one - despite
extraordinarily high expectations.
I got into Srebrenica by
convincing Bosnian Serb leader
Radovan Karadzic that the time
was right for a journalist to visit.
None had been allowed for more
than 100 days. People were
wondering what was going on
behind the curtain.
In the end, another journalist
asked to come along. He had a
vehicle, and I didn't. It was a good
trade-off.
But what we smelled there,
besides the smoke of thousand and
one cooking fires, was the slow
death of hope.
No one wanted to admit it was a
hopeless situation. They wanted to
believe that someone, something,
perhaps some extraordinary act of
fate, was going to save them and
their town.
They just didn't know what it was.
And that not knowing ate away at
them, just as their thinning food
supplies, having been choked off
by the Serbs, did.
At the very end of the only real
street that led all the way down
into the town and became, in
effect, main street, I'll always
remember dozens of kids taking
turns whizzing across a pool of
sheer ice, their bottoms protected
by worn pieces of thin cardboard.
We don't use the word "glee"
anymore. But that's what it was
then. Glee on Main Street,
Downtown Srebrenica.
A bit of laughter against the cold.
A bit of glee in the face of
inevitable doom.
(c) The Toronto Star 1992 -
Posted for educational and fair use
only
=======================================
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reproduced in 'JUDGMENT!'
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whole new get-tough policy
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If we at Emperor's Clothes are
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demonizing the Serbian people to
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was planned to coincide with the
release of the pictures. The
worldwide press campaign against
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Milosevic showed at The Hague.
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=== 2 ===
5,000 Muslim Lives for Military Intervention
Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, June 22 1998
Interview with Hakija Meholjic, president of Social Democratic Party
for Srebrenica, by Hasan Hadzic
In your accusations of the state leadership, and particularly of
President Izetbegovic, over a share of the Bosniak blame for the
Srebrenica tragedy, the departure of the Srebrenica delegation to
Sarajevo in September 1993 for talks on the fate of this enclave
cannot be avoided?
The invitation came from President Izetbegovic. At a meeting of the
municipal war presidency we designated the delegation for Sarajevo. We
immediately had some premonition that big issues would be resolved
there because it was the first time we were leaving Srebrenica and we
were provided transport in two helicopters. We exited safely, yet ever
since we had became a demilitarized zone not a single civilian or
military delegation had come to us. It was envisaged that Naser Oric
would be going also, but he did not want to go. We were transported
in armored personnel carriers from Sarajevo airport to the Holiday Inn
hotel. That was the time of the Bosniak Convention, where a decision
was being made on the peace plan and the division of Bosnia. We were
received there by President Izetbegovic, and immediately after the
welcome he asked us: "What do you think about the swap of Srebrenica
for Vogosca [a Sarajevo suburb]?" There was a silence for a while and
then I said: "Mr. President, if this is a done thing, then you should
not have invited us here, because we have to return and face the
people and personally accept the burden of that decision."
So you rejected Izetbegovic's decision?
We rejected it without any discussion. Then he said: "You know, I was
offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska and
Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik forces enter Srebrenica, carry out a
slaughter of 5,000 Muslims, and then there will be a military
intervention." Our delegation was composed of nine people, one among
us was from Bratunac and unfortunately he is the only one not alive
now, but all the others from the delegation are alive and can confirm
this. Since the Convention had started the President entered to
announce us, and when he did it all the present stood up and welcomed
us with an applause as heroes. We had a request, in case the peace
plan was accepted, that Srebrenica be provided a physical link with
Tuzla and not with Gorazde.
Therefore, we asked for Bratunac and Zvornik because a link across the
desolate stretches and mountains did not suit us and we had never been
linked to that area anyway. It was said the President would receive
all delegations, but he accepted them all except ours.
Srebrenica Was Sold
Did you talk to someone else?
Then they somehow judged I was the toughest nut to crack, so Hazim
Rancic, the then chief of the Tuzla police, told me it was the
politicians' stance that I should stay behind for some seven days in
order for us to discuss and agree on something. Then they would
transport me by a helicopter to Zepa and I should then go on foot from
Zepa to Srebrenica. I told them I was to go to Srebrenica because the
people would think I did not want to return. I also told them if they
really wanted it I would go to Zepa from Srebrenica if they would send
a helicopter. Since the people there were already disappointed, during
the trip back we decided not to tell the people we were offered a
swap; otherwise they would understand it as if we were written off. I
can say that, regardless of the mistakes, the municipal presidency was
good and tried to work for the good of the people. We understood
everything clearly. We connected that with the fact that nobody had
organized us for defense since the ruling party surrendered Srebrenica
in April 1992 without resistance. I had been asked then to surrender
weapons because I had organized a unit of my own, but I had refused to
do so. My most difficult moment was when at the departure from
Sarajevo my colleague Adnan Karovic told me: "Hakija, you have been
sold! Please, if Srebrenica does fall, kill my mother, I beg of you.
Just do not let her fall into their hands!"
Even after the fall of Srebrenica in 1995 you had a chance to address
President Izetbegovic?
I requested then that a state commission be formed to examine the
responsibility of the international community, the President, the Army
General Staff, the Second Army corps, our responsibility.... The
people are missing, hey.... He (President Izetbegovic) asked me what I
would achieve with that? Rasim Delic tried to say something, too, but
nobody gave him a chance to speak. I did not interfere, but,
generally, I have a very bad opinion about the majority of the General
Staff members. Never in the history of wars had the people,
"processed" by other armies, been appointed commanders. You spend five
to six months in their prison, then you come through an exchange, and
become a commander. On the second day after Srebrenica fell we heard
on the radio in the woods Rasim Delic calling us to return as the
situation in Srebrenica was normal. That provoked a total confusion.
You had another interesting meeting with the President?
That was immediately after the liberation of Vozuca. I was informed
that the President was waiting in Kozlovac to talk to me. We went
through the complete history of Srebrenica. I told him I was going to
sue him when his power weakens. He asked me again what I was going to
achieve with that. I told him again that an investigation must be
conducted because the people were missing.... He then said: "You know,
these investigations remind me of my own investigation." He meant the
political one he had undergone [1983 trial of Izetbegovic]. I told
him: "There is a difference there, hey, you are an individual, and
there are no more people...."
One of the most puzzling personalities from Srebrenica is the
commander Naser Oric. He has avoided speaking, and the others are
divided in their opinion about him.
I have a normal relationship with Naser. I said that we should all be
held responsible, but as they did not initiate anything that means
Naser is not to blame for anything. All that must be proven. Naser
knows a lot and I told him once he must have been given "something" to
keep quiet. He laughed at that. I told him he would speak sooner or
later. If he was guilty then that should have been proven and he
should have been punished; if not, he should have been kept in the
army or police.... They left the man on the street and now they say he
deals with this or that. Well, he has to do something. Alija is giving
up the people. He is getting rid of the greatest commanders and
fighters.
The Role of Ibran Mustafic
An interesting individual in the Srebrenica story, both the wartime
and the postwar one, is Ibran Mustafic. He has accused everybody else
for the tragedy, yet he is being reproached for rescuing himself
through Serb contacts. Then he founded a new party, after which the
authorities denounced him, and then the authorities sent him to
suppress the revolt of the Srebrenica women. What kind of conclusion
should one draw from all that?
As a deputy of the SDA [Party of Democratic Action] Ibran was a "hawk"
in the prewar assembly. He was not in Srebrenica in the beginning of
the war because he was in Sarajevo. When we advanced well, despite all
our internal disputes, suddenly Ibran came, somewhere from the
woods.... Then he started spreading stories that our army was not
good, so bit by bit there was a split among the soldiers. He wanted
power again, so the SDA split into two camps. One evening someone
attacked him, Hamed Salihovic and Hamed Efendic. Salihovic was killed
then. Ibran was wounded and transported to the hospital. I was the
police chief then and we wanted to carry out an inquiry. But Ibran and
Hamed, as eye-witnesses, did not want to give a statement. Then there
was a session of the municipal assembly at which Ibran asked to be
given a radio set to talk to Momcilo Krajisnik so that Krajisnik could
take him out of Srebrenica.
Naturally, he was not allowed to do that. I connected these facts only
later. Ibran came to "wreck" Srebrenica while we advanced as that did
not suit someone's plan, and I assume that was the SDA's plan. When
Srebrenica fell he went straight to Potocari instead of going with all
of us through the forest. It is difficult to explain how he managed to
get out while the others were killed. Later he gave statements in
Bijeljina that we killed one another. Many people who did not have any
clue as to what the SDA was were killed, yet he went out and arrived
in Sarajevo.
Then again in 1996 Alija invited us to a meeting in the SDA main
office where Ibran stood up and recited a poem: "Alija, without you
the Sun will not shine, without you there will be darkness." And he
cried at the same time. Ibran is the President's man. He openly tells
the people not to return to Srebrenica, and the women who are content
are on his side. Those are the women who receive good money from the
SDA in order not to go there, since it is better for them to talk hot
air and halt the traffic here. All that is a scenario. Srebrenica was
first glorified, then mourned, and, in the end, made odious by taking
people to the streets. The goal of the authorities is to discredit us
in the face of other citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina so that they say
we are savages and that the authorities should do to us what they have
been doing.
What is the position of your minister, Adib Djozic?
Before the war Adib Djozic spoke on the Srebrenica radio station
protecting Goran Zekic, a Chetnik leader, who we had denounced as
an organizer of Chetnik training. Upon his arrival to Tuzla in the
beginning of the war Djozic presented himself as a founder of the SDA,
organizer of the uprising, and the like. The best illustration of what
kind of person he is, is one detail regarding the petition that
thousands of Srebrenica people signed against him. He then came to the
premises of the Srebrenica municipality in Tuzla and said: "Dear
people, I was called by President Izetbegovic, who asked me if I could
'wreck' Srebrenica, and if I could, then I would be a minister. I
promised I could." That took place in front of a large number of
witnesses.
You are now in the SDP [Social Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina]
and in that political framework you have been trying to do something
for the return of refugees. How does it go?
I have a reason to trust the people like Bogic Bogicevic, Nijaz
Durakovic, Zlatko Lagumdzija, Mirsad Djapo, and many others. They
have proved that they are most sincerely for Bosnia-Herzegovina as a
normal state. For me, Bosnia-Herzegovina without my Srebrenica does
not exist and my biggest goal in life is to return. The current
authorities have shown thousand of times so far that they do not want
that.
(Toronto Star 16/08/1995)
2. Interview with Hakija Meholjic, president of Social Democratic
Party for Srebrenica
(Dani 22/06/1998)
=== 1 ===
Full Text of Reporter's Account of Evening Spent with Commander of
Bosnian Muslims in Srebrenica
URL is
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/oric.htm
Join our email list at
http://emperor.vwh.net/MailList/index.php
Receive articles from Emperor's
Clothes Website
Send the link to this text to a
friend. If you're reading this in
email, please forward this article
to your friends.
* Looking for a gift? See ad at end
of article for JUDGMENT! video
- the movie shown by Milosevic
at The Hague *
==========================================================F
Full Text of Reporter's Account
of Evening Spent with
Commander of Bosnian Muslims
in Srebrenica
[Posted 21 December 2002]
==========================================================
Dear Emperor's Clothes,
Re: "A Rare Glimpse at the
Reality of the Bosnian War "
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/gorazde.htm
Thanks for this little antidote to
the view of the Jugoslavian wars
peddled so assiduously by the
mainstream media! One minor
suggestion: if possible, it would be
nice to have access to the entire
Toronto Star article in which
Nasir Oric boasts about his
"Greatest Hits." That way,
Emperor's Clothes would not
open itself to an accusation of
selective citation....
H. Day
Norway
***
Dear Mr. Day,
The article can be accessed only
on special search engines, those
which archive past news. (E.g.,
Lexis) Therefore, I cannot give a
url. However, here is the full text.
Best regards,
Jared Israel
***
The Toronto Star
July 16, 1995, Sunday, SUNDAY
SECOND EDITION
SECTION: NEWS; Pg. A1
LENGTH: 816 words
HEADLINE: Fearsome Muslim
warlord eludes Bosnian Serb
forces
BYLINE: Bill Schiller Toronto
Star
DATELINE: BELGRADE,
Yugoslavia
BODY:
BELGRADE, Yugoslavia - When
Bosnian Serb commander Gen.
Ratko Mladic swept triumphantly
into Srebrenica last week, he not
only wanted to sweep Srebrenica
clean of Muslims - he wanted
Nasir Oric.
In Mladic's view, the powerfully
built Muslim commander had
made life too difficult and too
deadly for Serb communities
nearby.
Even though the Serbs had
Srebrenica surrounded, Oric was
still mounting commando raids by
night against Serb targets.
Oric, as blood-thirsty a warrior as
ever crossed a battlefield, escaped
Srebrenica before it fell. Some
believe he may be leading the
Bosnian Muslim forces in the
nearby enclaves of Zepa and
Gorazde. Last night these forces
seized armored personnel carriers
and other weapons from U.N.
peacekeepers in order to better
protect themselves.
Oric is a fearsome man, and proud
of it.
I met him in January, 1994, in his
own home in Serb-surrounded
Srebrenica.
On a cold and snowy night, I sat in
his living room watching a
shocking video version of what
might have been called Nasir
Oric's Greatest Hits.
There were burning houses, dead
bodies, severed heads, and people
fleeing.
Oric grinned throughout, admiring
his handiwork.
"We ambushed them," he said
when a number of dead Serbs
appeared on the screen.
The next sequence of dead bodies
had been done in by explosives:
"We launched those guys to the
moon," he boasted.
When footage of a bullet-marked
ghost town appeared without any
visible bodies, Oric hastened to
announce: "We killed 114 Serbs
there."
Later there were celebrations,
with singers with wobbly voices
chanting his praises.
These video reminiscences,
apparently, were from what
Muslims regard as Oric's glory
days. That was before most of
eastern Bosnia fell and Srebrenica
became a "safe zone" with U.N.
peacekeepers inside - and Serbs
on the outside.
Lately, however, Oric increased
his hit-and-run attacks at night.
And in Mladic's view, it was far
too successful for a community
that was supposed to be
suppressed.
The Serbs regard Oric, once Serb
President Slobodan Milosevic's
personal bodyguard, as a war
criminal.
But they don't want to send him to
the international war crimes
tribunal in The Hague,
Netherlands. They want to track
him down and kill him.
The only songs they want sung of
Nasir Oric are funeral dirges.
But that hasn't happened.
Srebrenica, surrounded by 3,000
armed Serbs as it was then, was a
strange town. It held a desperate
kind of life - a life in suspended
animation.
People talked about what they
used to do, or used to be. Or about
what they would do or would
become once they were free
again.
Sleeping beneath the sheltering
sky near Tuzla as Srebrenica's
surviving residents did last week
- after having been driven from
their homes - was not in their
catalogue of expectations.
I remember steep streets lined
with snow and, everywhere,
firewood.
Srebrenica, an old silver mining
town, was built to hold 4,500
residents, but was then crammed
with 22,500. And the overall
pocket, some 14 kilometres wide
by 16 kilometres long, had
swelled to 46,000 in all.
It had the look and feel of an
overcrowded, somewhat
dilapidated, ski resort town.
But it was anything but.
Still, people were friendly. The
face of an outsider, an
unexplained newcomer, came as a
pleasant surprise to them and I
was welcomed into their homes,
served tea brewed on makeshift
firewood stoves, and treated with
kindness.
There was, even then, some
tension in the air about our
Canadian peacekeepers there. But
they were still doing a good job -
even an excellent one - despite
extraordinarily high expectations.
I got into Srebrenica by
convincing Bosnian Serb leader
Radovan Karadzic that the time
was right for a journalist to visit.
None had been allowed for more
than 100 days. People were
wondering what was going on
behind the curtain.
In the end, another journalist
asked to come along. He had a
vehicle, and I didn't. It was a good
trade-off.
But what we smelled there,
besides the smoke of thousand and
one cooking fires, was the slow
death of hope.
No one wanted to admit it was a
hopeless situation. They wanted to
believe that someone, something,
perhaps some extraordinary act of
fate, was going to save them and
their town.
They just didn't know what it was.
And that not knowing ate away at
them, just as their thinning food
supplies, having been choked off
by the Serbs, did.
At the very end of the only real
street that led all the way down
into the town and became, in
effect, main street, I'll always
remember dozens of kids taking
turns whizzing across a pool of
sheer ice, their bottoms protected
by worn pieces of thin cardboard.
We don't use the word "glee"
anymore. But that's what it was
then. Glee on Main Street,
Downtown Srebrenica.
A bit of laughter against the cold.
A bit of glee in the face of
inevitable doom.
(c) The Toronto Star 1992 -
Posted for educational and fair use
only
=======================================
'JUDGMENT!' - The Video
Shown As Evidence at The Hague
Tribunal!
{It can now be shipped gift
wrapped...Order details after text}
=======================================
September 26 was the first day of
the Bosnian part of the Hague trial
against Slobodan Milosevic. That
day Mr. Milosevic showed
excerpts from a video which
demonstrates how the British TV
station, ITN, fabricated evidence
of Serbian death camps in Bosnia.
The video, co-produced by
Emperor's Clothes and reporters
from Serbian Television, is called
'JUDGMENT!' It demonstrates
that the famous Bosnian pictures,
especially the tall, seemingly
starved man behind barbed wire in
a death camp, were a hoax. It was
not a death camp. The Muslim
men were not behind barbed wire.
This is eminently clear from video
footage shot that day and
reproduced in 'JUDGMENT!'
The movie shows step-by-step
how the phony pictures were
created.
The Bosnian pictures had a huge
impact in 1992. Twenty minutes
after they were shown on TV on
August 6th, George Bush Sr. held
a press conference to proclaim a
whole new get-tough policy
against the Bosnian Serbs. This
was followed by a worldwide
media campaign - all based on the
Bosnian pictures.
If we at Emperor's Clothes are
right that these pictures were a
fraud, then the implications are
staggering: the pictures were
staged to justify a coordinated
US/European policy of
demonizing the Serbian people to
justify war. The press conference
was planned to coincide with the
release of the pictures. The
worldwide press campaign against
the Bosnian Serbs was planned in
advance.
You can view the same video Mr.
Milosevic showed at The Hague.
If you conclude that we are not
telling the truth, send the video
back and we'll refund the
purchase price in full. You don't
risk a penny.
You can purchase a copy of
'JUDGMENT!' for $25 in the US,
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=== 2 ===
5,000 Muslim Lives for Military Intervention
Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, June 22 1998
Interview with Hakija Meholjic, president of Social Democratic Party
for Srebrenica, by Hasan Hadzic
In your accusations of the state leadership, and particularly of
President Izetbegovic, over a share of the Bosniak blame for the
Srebrenica tragedy, the departure of the Srebrenica delegation to
Sarajevo in September 1993 for talks on the fate of this enclave
cannot be avoided?
The invitation came from President Izetbegovic. At a meeting of the
municipal war presidency we designated the delegation for Sarajevo. We
immediately had some premonition that big issues would be resolved
there because it was the first time we were leaving Srebrenica and we
were provided transport in two helicopters. We exited safely, yet ever
since we had became a demilitarized zone not a single civilian or
military delegation had come to us. It was envisaged that Naser Oric
would be going also, but he did not want to go. We were transported
in armored personnel carriers from Sarajevo airport to the Holiday Inn
hotel. That was the time of the Bosniak Convention, where a decision
was being made on the peace plan and the division of Bosnia. We were
received there by President Izetbegovic, and immediately after the
welcome he asked us: "What do you think about the swap of Srebrenica
for Vogosca [a Sarajevo suburb]?" There was a silence for a while and
then I said: "Mr. President, if this is a done thing, then you should
not have invited us here, because we have to return and face the
people and personally accept the burden of that decision."
So you rejected Izetbegovic's decision?
We rejected it without any discussion. Then he said: "You know, I was
offered by Clinton in April 1993 (after the fall of Cerska and
Konjevic Polje) that the Chetnik forces enter Srebrenica, carry out a
slaughter of 5,000 Muslims, and then there will be a military
intervention." Our delegation was composed of nine people, one among
us was from Bratunac and unfortunately he is the only one not alive
now, but all the others from the delegation are alive and can confirm
this. Since the Convention had started the President entered to
announce us, and when he did it all the present stood up and welcomed
us with an applause as heroes. We had a request, in case the peace
plan was accepted, that Srebrenica be provided a physical link with
Tuzla and not with Gorazde.
Therefore, we asked for Bratunac and Zvornik because a link across the
desolate stretches and mountains did not suit us and we had never been
linked to that area anyway. It was said the President would receive
all delegations, but he accepted them all except ours.
Srebrenica Was Sold
Did you talk to someone else?
Then they somehow judged I was the toughest nut to crack, so Hazim
Rancic, the then chief of the Tuzla police, told me it was the
politicians' stance that I should stay behind for some seven days in
order for us to discuss and agree on something. Then they would
transport me by a helicopter to Zepa and I should then go on foot from
Zepa to Srebrenica. I told them I was to go to Srebrenica because the
people would think I did not want to return. I also told them if they
really wanted it I would go to Zepa from Srebrenica if they would send
a helicopter. Since the people there were already disappointed, during
the trip back we decided not to tell the people we were offered a
swap; otherwise they would understand it as if we were written off. I
can say that, regardless of the mistakes, the municipal presidency was
good and tried to work for the good of the people. We understood
everything clearly. We connected that with the fact that nobody had
organized us for defense since the ruling party surrendered Srebrenica
in April 1992 without resistance. I had been asked then to surrender
weapons because I had organized a unit of my own, but I had refused to
do so. My most difficult moment was when at the departure from
Sarajevo my colleague Adnan Karovic told me: "Hakija, you have been
sold! Please, if Srebrenica does fall, kill my mother, I beg of you.
Just do not let her fall into their hands!"
Even after the fall of Srebrenica in 1995 you had a chance to address
President Izetbegovic?
I requested then that a state commission be formed to examine the
responsibility of the international community, the President, the Army
General Staff, the Second Army corps, our responsibility.... The
people are missing, hey.... He (President Izetbegovic) asked me what I
would achieve with that? Rasim Delic tried to say something, too, but
nobody gave him a chance to speak. I did not interfere, but,
generally, I have a very bad opinion about the majority of the General
Staff members. Never in the history of wars had the people,
"processed" by other armies, been appointed commanders. You spend five
to six months in their prison, then you come through an exchange, and
become a commander. On the second day after Srebrenica fell we heard
on the radio in the woods Rasim Delic calling us to return as the
situation in Srebrenica was normal. That provoked a total confusion.
You had another interesting meeting with the President?
That was immediately after the liberation of Vozuca. I was informed
that the President was waiting in Kozlovac to talk to me. We went
through the complete history of Srebrenica. I told him I was going to
sue him when his power weakens. He asked me again what I was going to
achieve with that. I told him again that an investigation must be
conducted because the people were missing.... He then said: "You know,
these investigations remind me of my own investigation." He meant the
political one he had undergone [1983 trial of Izetbegovic]. I told
him: "There is a difference there, hey, you are an individual, and
there are no more people...."
One of the most puzzling personalities from Srebrenica is the
commander Naser Oric. He has avoided speaking, and the others are
divided in their opinion about him.
I have a normal relationship with Naser. I said that we should all be
held responsible, but as they did not initiate anything that means
Naser is not to blame for anything. All that must be proven. Naser
knows a lot and I told him once he must have been given "something" to
keep quiet. He laughed at that. I told him he would speak sooner or
later. If he was guilty then that should have been proven and he
should have been punished; if not, he should have been kept in the
army or police.... They left the man on the street and now they say he
deals with this or that. Well, he has to do something. Alija is giving
up the people. He is getting rid of the greatest commanders and
fighters.
The Role of Ibran Mustafic
An interesting individual in the Srebrenica story, both the wartime
and the postwar one, is Ibran Mustafic. He has accused everybody else
for the tragedy, yet he is being reproached for rescuing himself
through Serb contacts. Then he founded a new party, after which the
authorities denounced him, and then the authorities sent him to
suppress the revolt of the Srebrenica women. What kind of conclusion
should one draw from all that?
As a deputy of the SDA [Party of Democratic Action] Ibran was a "hawk"
in the prewar assembly. He was not in Srebrenica in the beginning of
the war because he was in Sarajevo. When we advanced well, despite all
our internal disputes, suddenly Ibran came, somewhere from the
woods.... Then he started spreading stories that our army was not
good, so bit by bit there was a split among the soldiers. He wanted
power again, so the SDA split into two camps. One evening someone
attacked him, Hamed Salihovic and Hamed Efendic. Salihovic was killed
then. Ibran was wounded and transported to the hospital. I was the
police chief then and we wanted to carry out an inquiry. But Ibran and
Hamed, as eye-witnesses, did not want to give a statement. Then there
was a session of the municipal assembly at which Ibran asked to be
given a radio set to talk to Momcilo Krajisnik so that Krajisnik could
take him out of Srebrenica.
Naturally, he was not allowed to do that. I connected these facts only
later. Ibran came to "wreck" Srebrenica while we advanced as that did
not suit someone's plan, and I assume that was the SDA's plan. When
Srebrenica fell he went straight to Potocari instead of going with all
of us through the forest. It is difficult to explain how he managed to
get out while the others were killed. Later he gave statements in
Bijeljina that we killed one another. Many people who did not have any
clue as to what the SDA was were killed, yet he went out and arrived
in Sarajevo.
Then again in 1996 Alija invited us to a meeting in the SDA main
office where Ibran stood up and recited a poem: "Alija, without you
the Sun will not shine, without you there will be darkness." And he
cried at the same time. Ibran is the President's man. He openly tells
the people not to return to Srebrenica, and the women who are content
are on his side. Those are the women who receive good money from the
SDA in order not to go there, since it is better for them to talk hot
air and halt the traffic here. All that is a scenario. Srebrenica was
first glorified, then mourned, and, in the end, made odious by taking
people to the streets. The goal of the authorities is to discredit us
in the face of other citizens of Bosnia-Herzegovina so that they say
we are savages and that the authorities should do to us what they have
been doing.
What is the position of your minister, Adib Djozic?
Before the war Adib Djozic spoke on the Srebrenica radio station
protecting Goran Zekic, a Chetnik leader, who we had denounced as
an organizer of Chetnik training. Upon his arrival to Tuzla in the
beginning of the war Djozic presented himself as a founder of the SDA,
organizer of the uprising, and the like. The best illustration of what
kind of person he is, is one detail regarding the petition that
thousands of Srebrenica people signed against him. He then came to the
premises of the Srebrenica municipality in Tuzla and said: "Dear
people, I was called by President Izetbegovic, who asked me if I could
'wreck' Srebrenica, and if I could, then I would be a minister. I
promised I could." That took place in front of a large number of
witnesses.
You are now in the SDP [Social Democratic Party of Bosnia-Herzegovina]
and in that political framework you have been trying to do something
for the return of refugees. How does it go?
I have a reason to trust the people like Bogic Bogicevic, Nijaz
Durakovic, Zlatko Lagumdzija, Mirsad Djapo, and many others. They
have proved that they are most sincerely for Bosnia-Herzegovina as a
normal state. For me, Bosnia-Herzegovina without my Srebrenica does
not exist and my biggest goal in life is to return. The current
authorities have shown thousand of times so far that they do not want
that.