International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
http://www.icdsm.org - http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/index.htm
=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART VI
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12 easy
to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
OR
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10669
1 Presidency of Yugoslavia, you betrayed Yugoslavia and contributed to
its
2 break-up. Then proceeding to betray those with whom you had
collaborated
3 to destroy Yugoslavia. I'm referring to the HDZ and Tudjman. I don't
4 know who is next. Is it true that Tudjman wanted that from the very
5 start, when the HDZ was founded, Tudjman linked it up with the
right-wing
6 factions in Croatia, which includes those who do not conceal the
fact they
7 are Ustasha?
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, before you answer, allegations are made
9 there which you should have a chance to deal with, a series of them.
10 The first is that, as the president of the Presidency of
11 Yugoslavia, you betrayed Yugoslavia and contributed to its
break-up. Did
12 you regard yourself as betraying Yugoslavia?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was elected to the Presidency
14 of Yugoslavia, I believed that I would help to resolve the Yugoslav
crisis
15 by political means, that I could contribute to avoiding the war. My
16 proposal to the Presidency was that we should adopt a fully
confederal
17 system and that the confederation should be given a time limit,
three to
18 five years, that the republics should be declared independent, that
the
19 republics should be internationally recognised, that they should
recognise
20 each other, and thereby be recognised by the international
community, and
21 that on the day when the Federation ceased to exist, a
confederation be
22 established. Why? Because everyone was dissatisfied with
Yugoslavia.
23 Serbia claimed that it was being exploited. Serbia claimed that
they were
24 the ones who funded others. Croatia was saying that its hard
currency was
25 being siphoned off to Belgrade. If everybody was dissatisfied, why
not
Page 10670
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English
transcripts.
Page 10671
1 adopt a new model? My proposal was to have a confederation and to
2 establish what tasks the confederation would perform, how much this
would
3 cost, and what the key to the budget would be, to the financing of
this.
4 Serbia never expressed its view on this proposal. Instead of this,
5 Milosevic proposed a strong federation. That is what happened to
Kosovo
6 and Vojvodina, that this should happen everywhere. We could not
agree to
7 this. But I was in favour of negotiations. I thought that it was
better
8 to negotiate for ten years rather than to wage war for ten days.
Some
9 people were in favour of the war option, and Slobodan Milosevic was
10 certainly one of those.
11 But what could I have done in Belgrade? Who could I have
12 influenced? The generals contacted Milosevic, the army executed
what
13 Milosevic's regime wanted, the creation of a greater Serbia,
because he
14 was saying that the Serbs should remain in one state. That is the
part
15 that was to become Yugoslavia and to be taken from Croatia. That's
what
16 General Veljko Kadijevic says in his book, and he was the Secretary
for
17 National Defence.
18 Therefore, therefore, the army, when it had been made into a
19 Serbian army, when the Croats, the Slovenians, the Macedonians and
others
20 had left, when it had become a Serbian army, it was to perform the
job of
21 setting up new borders, and the one who was perpetrating that plan
was the
22 one who was destroying the Federation. I wanted to search for a
political
23 solution through constitutional means. I had two secretaries, an
advisor,
24 and a Chef de Cabinet, and they were the only people I could
influence. I
25 have to say they were all Serbs. Who else could I have influenced,
and
Page 10672
1 how could I have toppled Yugoslavia? Was it I who did it or was it
the
2 person who had the Yugoslav army at his disposal, which had been
3 transformed into a Serbian army?
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Mesic, that all the peoples of Yugoslavia should live in one
6 state pertained to Yugoslavia and that the Serbs in Yugoslavia lived
in
7 one state was one of the reasons why Serbia wanted Yugoslavia to be
8 preserved, and that is the only thing that you can quote me on
saying, not
9 anybody else. And you're making this up, just like others have along
the
10 same lines.
11 I asked you the following: Tudjman wanted a Croatian state at all
12 costs, and from the very inception of the HDZ, he firmly relied on
the
13 most radical right-wing, which consisted of the most drastic
Ustasha; is
14 that right?
15 A. That's not true. Increasingly radical elements started joining
16 the party and then I left the party.
17 Q. You say in your interview to the AIM and the question was why
did
18 Tudjman from the very inception of the HDZ so strongly rely on the
radical
19 right wing in which there are some clear-cut Ustasha. You say that
you
20 were powerless, that these were forces that were more powerful than
you
21 and that Tudjman went along with them and that the forces that you
22 represented were different, and you say that he relied on these
extremist
23 forces and he believed that they would be his friends in war, and
that
24 after the war he would manage to neutralise them. That was your
25 explanation. Is that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?
Page 10673
1 A. I think that I answered that question at the very outset. The HDZ
2 was a democratic party and now the question is what this journalist
meant
3 by the very outset. Which outset?
4 Q. All right. You explained that this was from March 1991 after the
5 meeting in Karadjordjevo. That is your interpretation of the
situation,
6 and we are not going to dwell on that. However, you did remain in
that
7 same HDZ for another three years and now you're attacking it.
8 A. 1991 until the end of 1992 cannot be three by any kind of
9 arithmetic. So there seems to be some kind of erroneous arithmetic
10 involved.
11 Q. Is it true that it was Tudjman's view that Bosnia was a mistake,
12 that it was a mistake to make it as a republic after the Second
World War
13 and that it should be annexed to Croatia? Is that right or is that
not
14 right?
15 A. Those were his ideas, that Bosnia was supposed to belong to
16 Croatia on the basis of a decision that should have been adopted by
Avnoj.
17 That's what we discussed, because we were both in opposition, both
Tudjman
18 and I were MPs in the Croatian parliament in 1965.
19 Q. All right. Is it true that it is precisely in Zagreb that
20 deportations of the population of Bosnia were discussed? Or as you
had
21 put it, the humane resettlement of the population and basically
this was
22 ethnic cleansing. Is this right or is this not right?
23 A. As for humane resettlement, that is something that you talked
24 about and all of those who thought that it was necessary to
transport
25 Croats from Slankamen into Croatia and Serbs into Serbia. I
certainly
Page 10674
1 took no part in that.
2 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Let's not dwell on this much longer. I
3 asked you whether you had your own views on this, because in the
4 transcript that I refer to, your opinion is quite obvious. You say
that
5 any person with common sense would realise that this is ethnic
cleansing.
6 A. Well, humanitarian resettlement is actually ethnic cleansing.
7 That is why your detachments came, Dusan Silni, Arkan's guard. All
of
8 them came in order to carry out ethnic cleansing. That is not even
9 humanitarian resettlement.
10 Q. Mr. Mesic, I am referring to your policy, the policy of Croatia.
11 I am not talking about whether anybody from Serbia did any such
thing.
12 Because as you know full well, it is only Serbia that kept its
ethnic
13 composition over the past ten years, and nobody was expelled from
Serbia,
14 not a single house was torched, and nobody was mistreated because
of their
15 ethnic affiliation.
16 A. Except for the fact that in Serbia there were 18 camps where
there
17 were Croatian citizens and they were fleeing from Seselj, the
Croats from
18 Vojvodina were, and they were settling Croat settlements and they
were
19 exchanging their houses for Serb houses. That is the so-called
20 humanitarian resettlement.
21 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that there was not a single camp in
22 Yugoslavia, or rather, in Serbia, not for Croats, not for anyone,
not for
23 Croats, not for Muslims, not for anyone.
24 A. Croatia is still looking for over 3.300 of its citizens. Many of
25 them, after Vukovar and after other places where massacres were
committed,
Page 10675
1 were taken to Serbia. We have to know that the Yugoslav army, with
2 paramilitary organisations, which, with the approval of the Serb
3 leadership came to Croatia, destroyed Croatian towns. Why was
Vukovar
4 destroyed? Why were the citizens of Croatia taken to Serbia from
Vukovar?
5 Why were they taken to camps in Serbia? If the president of Serbia
does
6 not know that there were camps in Serbia, then that is the problem
of
7 Serbia.
8 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know, for example, that when this propaganda
9 started about the existence of camps in Serbia, that various foreign
10 delegations spoke to me about this, people who came on other
business, and
11 they asked me about these camps? And I answered to each and every
one of
12 them: Please feel free to take a helicopter that I have here and
that is
13 ready. Put your finger anywhere on a map and that's where the
helicopter
14 will take you, and you will see that there is nothing of the sort
in
15 Serbia. After a few answers that I gave of this kind, one
delegation, it
16 was a German delegation, asked to go, then pinpointed the mine in
17 Aleksinac on a map. They went there and the only thing they found
was --
18 JUDGE MAY: You're not giving evidence. You can give evidence to
19 us in due course.
20 Mr. Mesic, do you know anything about Mr. Milosevic's dealings
21 with foreign delegations? Have you seen any reports or heard
anything
22 about that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I do know
24 that the Yugoslav army, together with paramilitary organisations,
took out
25 of the Vukovar hospital almost 300 persons and that they were all
Page 10676
1 liquidated in Ovcara, near Vukovar. I also know that citizens who
were
2 taken prisoner in that massacre of Vukovar were transported to
Serbia.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. First of all, that is not correct. Secondly, please take a look
5 at this map.
6 JUDGE MAY: What are you suggesting happened at Vukovar,
7 Mr. Milosevic, if it's not correct?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is not correct that anyone from
9 Serbia took citizens from Vukovar to Serbia. It is not correct that
any
10 policy of Serbia's influenced the intensification of the conflict
in the
11 region of Vukovar. What is correct is that it is precisely the
armed
12 detachments of the HDZ that barged into people's homes, into
villages
13 around Vukovar and took Serbs away, arrested them, and so on. They
14 attacked Vukovar --
15 JUDGE MAY: Is it disputed that 300 persons were taken from the
16 hospital to Ovcara and there liquidated? Is that disputed?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have these figures, Mr. May,
18 and I'm not discussing them now. But I shall try to find these
facts and
19 figures and see what kind of facts and figures are available. I can
20 claim, though, that no Serbian authorities had absolutely anything
to do
21 with this, nor did the Serb authorities cause any kind of ethnic
conflicts
22 in Vukovar. Ethnic conflicts in Vukovar were caused by the same
people I
23 quoted a minute ago, those who took people out of their homes in
Zagreb.
24 JUDGE MAY: I've asked you some questions about that. Now, let's
25 move on to matters which the witness can deal with, in particular,
his
Page 10677
1 evidence. Time, as you know, is limited, Mr. Milosevic. We must
allow
2 some time for the amicus to ask any questions that they want this
3 afternoon. And any re-examination, Mr. Nice?
4 MR. NICE: There's likely to be some, yes.
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, could you help about the amicus?
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there will be questions.
7 JUDGE MAY: How long do you ask for, Mr. Tapuskovic? Can you give
8 us an idea, please?
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is hard for me to say. I will
10 honour any decision you make, but it seems to me that half an hour
would
11 be absolutely indispensable.
12 JUDGE MAY: We may not be able to give you half an hour, I'm
13 afraid, because time is short. We can extend the sitting this
afternoon
14 until 2.00, unless the Registry have any difficulty about that.
There's
15 another hearing this afternoon, but I anticipate we can sit until
2.00,
16 and we will extend the hearing until then to accommodate as much
17 questioning as we can.
18 But Mr. Milosevic, your time is limited, as you know. So let's
19 move on. If you've got any matters that you want to challenge on
what the
20 witness said in his evidence, you should do so.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, of course I am challenging
22 almost everything that the witness said during his testimony. But I
23 assume that it is clear to you that limiting time for the
24 cross-examination of this witness is quite contrary to the need to
25 ascertain the truth. After all, the other party announced that they
would
Page 10678
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English
transcripts.
Page 10679
1 examine him for ten hours and then they decreased the number by two
and a
2 half times in order to diminish my ability to cross-examine him.
However,
3 I am going to use the time that is given to me, and you will have to
deal
4 with the fact that you haven't given me enough time.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that there were 221 camps for Serbs in the
7 period between 1991 and 1996 in Croatia? The five that you refer to
in
8 Serbia never existed. And here you have a list of all the 221 camps
for
9 Serbs in Croatia, and also a map that shows where they were and how
many
10 were in different towns and so on. Are you aware of this?
11 A. Regardless of the fact that I have been highly critical in terms
12 of the functioning of rule of law in the state of Croatia until the
year
13 2000, the truth is that there were no camps in Croatia. There were
14 abuses, there were crimes. That is certain. However, unfortunately,
I
15 did not answer the question that had to do with Vukovar. Do I have
to
16 give an answer? I do. Those who carried out liquidations were given
17 decorations and were promoted to the rank of general and other such
ranks.
18 They still live in Belgrade and they are wanted by this Tribunal.
So I'm
19 not the one who is inventing things. The only persons who were not
taken
20 out of Vukovar were those who were liquidated in Ovcara.
21 Q. According to the information I have, no army could have executed
22 or liquidated anyone. You know full well as a citizen of Yugoslavia
until
23 it was broken up and you have --
24 JUDGE MAY: This is a matter which the Trial Chamber, I suspect,
25 is going to have to determine in due course, and it sounds as
though these
* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-7.htm
OR http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-7.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the
request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have
organized research to help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And
we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited
to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced
further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's
aggression and experts from Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell
what really happened and expose media lies. Moreover,
Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some friendly and
some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's
use of racism, violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the
Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts
and before the European Court, about which more
news soon. These efforts urgently require financial support. We now
maintain a small staff of Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a
non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we
have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and process evidence and for meetings with witnesses
and lawyers and as a base for organizing press
conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for
attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART VI
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12 easy
to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
OR
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10669
1 Presidency of Yugoslavia, you betrayed Yugoslavia and contributed to
its
2 break-up. Then proceeding to betray those with whom you had
collaborated
3 to destroy Yugoslavia. I'm referring to the HDZ and Tudjman. I don't
4 know who is next. Is it true that Tudjman wanted that from the very
5 start, when the HDZ was founded, Tudjman linked it up with the
right-wing
6 factions in Croatia, which includes those who do not conceal the
fact they
7 are Ustasha?
8 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, before you answer, allegations are made
9 there which you should have a chance to deal with, a series of them.
10 The first is that, as the president of the Presidency of
11 Yugoslavia, you betrayed Yugoslavia and contributed to its
break-up. Did
12 you regard yourself as betraying Yugoslavia?
13 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] When I was elected to the Presidency
14 of Yugoslavia, I believed that I would help to resolve the Yugoslav
crisis
15 by political means, that I could contribute to avoiding the war. My
16 proposal to the Presidency was that we should adopt a fully
confederal
17 system and that the confederation should be given a time limit,
three to
18 five years, that the republics should be declared independent, that
the
19 republics should be internationally recognised, that they should
recognise
20 each other, and thereby be recognised by the international
community, and
21 that on the day when the Federation ceased to exist, a
confederation be
22 established. Why? Because everyone was dissatisfied with
Yugoslavia.
23 Serbia claimed that it was being exploited. Serbia claimed that
they were
24 the ones who funded others. Croatia was saying that its hard
currency was
25 being siphoned off to Belgrade. If everybody was dissatisfied, why
not
Page 10670
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English
transcripts.
Page 10671
1 adopt a new model? My proposal was to have a confederation and to
2 establish what tasks the confederation would perform, how much this
would
3 cost, and what the key to the budget would be, to the financing of
this.
4 Serbia never expressed its view on this proposal. Instead of this,
5 Milosevic proposed a strong federation. That is what happened to
Kosovo
6 and Vojvodina, that this should happen everywhere. We could not
agree to
7 this. But I was in favour of negotiations. I thought that it was
better
8 to negotiate for ten years rather than to wage war for ten days.
Some
9 people were in favour of the war option, and Slobodan Milosevic was
10 certainly one of those.
11 But what could I have done in Belgrade? Who could I have
12 influenced? The generals contacted Milosevic, the army executed
what
13 Milosevic's regime wanted, the creation of a greater Serbia,
because he
14 was saying that the Serbs should remain in one state. That is the
part
15 that was to become Yugoslavia and to be taken from Croatia. That's
what
16 General Veljko Kadijevic says in his book, and he was the Secretary
for
17 National Defence.
18 Therefore, therefore, the army, when it had been made into a
19 Serbian army, when the Croats, the Slovenians, the Macedonians and
others
20 had left, when it had become a Serbian army, it was to perform the
job of
21 setting up new borders, and the one who was perpetrating that plan
was the
22 one who was destroying the Federation. I wanted to search for a
political
23 solution through constitutional means. I had two secretaries, an
advisor,
24 and a Chef de Cabinet, and they were the only people I could
influence. I
25 have to say they were all Serbs. Who else could I have influenced,
and
Page 10672
1 how could I have toppled Yugoslavia? Was it I who did it or was it
the
2 person who had the Yugoslav army at his disposal, which had been
3 transformed into a Serbian army?
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. Mr. Mesic, that all the peoples of Yugoslavia should live in one
6 state pertained to Yugoslavia and that the Serbs in Yugoslavia lived
in
7 one state was one of the reasons why Serbia wanted Yugoslavia to be
8 preserved, and that is the only thing that you can quote me on
saying, not
9 anybody else. And you're making this up, just like others have along
the
10 same lines.
11 I asked you the following: Tudjman wanted a Croatian state at all
12 costs, and from the very inception of the HDZ, he firmly relied on
the
13 most radical right-wing, which consisted of the most drastic
Ustasha; is
14 that right?
15 A. That's not true. Increasingly radical elements started joining
16 the party and then I left the party.
17 Q. You say in your interview to the AIM and the question was why
did
18 Tudjman from the very inception of the HDZ so strongly rely on the
radical
19 right wing in which there are some clear-cut Ustasha. You say that
you
20 were powerless, that these were forces that were more powerful than
you
21 and that Tudjman went along with them and that the forces that you
22 represented were different, and you say that he relied on these
extremist
23 forces and he believed that they would be his friends in war, and
that
24 after the war he would manage to neutralise them. That was your
25 explanation. Is that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?
Page 10673
1 A. I think that I answered that question at the very outset. The HDZ
2 was a democratic party and now the question is what this journalist
meant
3 by the very outset. Which outset?
4 Q. All right. You explained that this was from March 1991 after the
5 meeting in Karadjordjevo. That is your interpretation of the
situation,
6 and we are not going to dwell on that. However, you did remain in
that
7 same HDZ for another three years and now you're attacking it.
8 A. 1991 until the end of 1992 cannot be three by any kind of
9 arithmetic. So there seems to be some kind of erroneous arithmetic
10 involved.
11 Q. Is it true that it was Tudjman's view that Bosnia was a mistake,
12 that it was a mistake to make it as a republic after the Second
World War
13 and that it should be annexed to Croatia? Is that right or is that
not
14 right?
15 A. Those were his ideas, that Bosnia was supposed to belong to
16 Croatia on the basis of a decision that should have been adopted by
Avnoj.
17 That's what we discussed, because we were both in opposition, both
Tudjman
18 and I were MPs in the Croatian parliament in 1965.
19 Q. All right. Is it true that it is precisely in Zagreb that
20 deportations of the population of Bosnia were discussed? Or as you
had
21 put it, the humane resettlement of the population and basically
this was
22 ethnic cleansing. Is this right or is this not right?
23 A. As for humane resettlement, that is something that you talked
24 about and all of those who thought that it was necessary to
transport
25 Croats from Slankamen into Croatia and Serbs into Serbia. I
certainly
Page 10674
1 took no part in that.
2 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. Let's not dwell on this much longer. I
3 asked you whether you had your own views on this, because in the
4 transcript that I refer to, your opinion is quite obvious. You say
that
5 any person with common sense would realise that this is ethnic
cleansing.
6 A. Well, humanitarian resettlement is actually ethnic cleansing.
7 That is why your detachments came, Dusan Silni, Arkan's guard. All
of
8 them came in order to carry out ethnic cleansing. That is not even
9 humanitarian resettlement.
10 Q. Mr. Mesic, I am referring to your policy, the policy of Croatia.
11 I am not talking about whether anybody from Serbia did any such
thing.
12 Because as you know full well, it is only Serbia that kept its
ethnic
13 composition over the past ten years, and nobody was expelled from
Serbia,
14 not a single house was torched, and nobody was mistreated because
of their
15 ethnic affiliation.
16 A. Except for the fact that in Serbia there were 18 camps where
there
17 were Croatian citizens and they were fleeing from Seselj, the
Croats from
18 Vojvodina were, and they were settling Croat settlements and they
were
19 exchanging their houses for Serb houses. That is the so-called
20 humanitarian resettlement.
21 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that there was not a single camp in
22 Yugoslavia, or rather, in Serbia, not for Croats, not for anyone,
not for
23 Croats, not for Muslims, not for anyone.
24 A. Croatia is still looking for over 3.300 of its citizens. Many of
25 them, after Vukovar and after other places where massacres were
committed,
Page 10675
1 were taken to Serbia. We have to know that the Yugoslav army, with
2 paramilitary organisations, which, with the approval of the Serb
3 leadership came to Croatia, destroyed Croatian towns. Why was
Vukovar
4 destroyed? Why were the citizens of Croatia taken to Serbia from
Vukovar?
5 Why were they taken to camps in Serbia? If the president of Serbia
does
6 not know that there were camps in Serbia, then that is the problem
of
7 Serbia.
8 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know, for example, that when this propaganda
9 started about the existence of camps in Serbia, that various foreign
10 delegations spoke to me about this, people who came on other
business, and
11 they asked me about these camps? And I answered to each and every
one of
12 them: Please feel free to take a helicopter that I have here and
that is
13 ready. Put your finger anywhere on a map and that's where the
helicopter
14 will take you, and you will see that there is nothing of the sort
in
15 Serbia. After a few answers that I gave of this kind, one
delegation, it
16 was a German delegation, asked to go, then pinpointed the mine in
17 Aleksinac on a map. They went there and the only thing they found
was --
18 JUDGE MAY: You're not giving evidence. You can give evidence to
19 us in due course.
20 Mr. Mesic, do you know anything about Mr. Milosevic's dealings
21 with foreign delegations? Have you seen any reports or heard
anything
22 about that?
23 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I don't know about that. I do know
24 that the Yugoslav army, together with paramilitary organisations,
took out
25 of the Vukovar hospital almost 300 persons and that they were all
Page 10676
1 liquidated in Ovcara, near Vukovar. I also know that citizens who
were
2 taken prisoner in that massacre of Vukovar were transported to
Serbia.
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. First of all, that is not correct. Secondly, please take a look
5 at this map.
6 JUDGE MAY: What are you suggesting happened at Vukovar,
7 Mr. Milosevic, if it's not correct?
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] It is not correct that anyone from
9 Serbia took citizens from Vukovar to Serbia. It is not correct that
any
10 policy of Serbia's influenced the intensification of the conflict
in the
11 region of Vukovar. What is correct is that it is precisely the
armed
12 detachments of the HDZ that barged into people's homes, into
villages
13 around Vukovar and took Serbs away, arrested them, and so on. They
14 attacked Vukovar --
15 JUDGE MAY: Is it disputed that 300 persons were taken from the
16 hospital to Ovcara and there liquidated? Is that disputed?
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't have these figures, Mr. May,
18 and I'm not discussing them now. But I shall try to find these
facts and
19 figures and see what kind of facts and figures are available. I can
20 claim, though, that no Serbian authorities had absolutely anything
to do
21 with this, nor did the Serb authorities cause any kind of ethnic
conflicts
22 in Vukovar. Ethnic conflicts in Vukovar were caused by the same
people I
23 quoted a minute ago, those who took people out of their homes in
Zagreb.
24 JUDGE MAY: I've asked you some questions about that. Now, let's
25 move on to matters which the witness can deal with, in particular,
his
Page 10677
1 evidence. Time, as you know, is limited, Mr. Milosevic. We must
allow
2 some time for the amicus to ask any questions that they want this
3 afternoon. And any re-examination, Mr. Nice?
4 MR. NICE: There's likely to be some, yes.
5 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Kay, could you help about the amicus?
6 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] Yes, there will be questions.
7 JUDGE MAY: How long do you ask for, Mr. Tapuskovic? Can you give
8 us an idea, please?
9 MR. TAPUSKOVIC: [Interpretation] It is hard for me to say. I will
10 honour any decision you make, but it seems to me that half an hour
would
11 be absolutely indispensable.
12 JUDGE MAY: We may not be able to give you half an hour, I'm
13 afraid, because time is short. We can extend the sitting this
afternoon
14 until 2.00, unless the Registry have any difficulty about that.
There's
15 another hearing this afternoon, but I anticipate we can sit until
2.00,
16 and we will extend the hearing until then to accommodate as much
17 questioning as we can.
18 But Mr. Milosevic, your time is limited, as you know. So let's
19 move on. If you've got any matters that you want to challenge on
what the
20 witness said in his evidence, you should do so.
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, of course I am challenging
22 almost everything that the witness said during his testimony. But I
23 assume that it is clear to you that limiting time for the
24 cross-examination of this witness is quite contrary to the need to
25 ascertain the truth. After all, the other party announced that they
would
Page 10678
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English
transcripts.
Page 10679
1 examine him for ten hours and then they decreased the number by two
and a
2 half times in order to diminish my ability to cross-examine him.
However,
3 I am going to use the time that is given to me, and you will have to
deal
4 with the fact that you haven't given me enough time.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that there were 221 camps for Serbs in the
7 period between 1991 and 1996 in Croatia? The five that you refer to
in
8 Serbia never existed. And here you have a list of all the 221 camps
for
9 Serbs in Croatia, and also a map that shows where they were and how
many
10 were in different towns and so on. Are you aware of this?
11 A. Regardless of the fact that I have been highly critical in terms
12 of the functioning of rule of law in the state of Croatia until the
year
13 2000, the truth is that there were no camps in Croatia. There were
14 abuses, there were crimes. That is certain. However, unfortunately,
I
15 did not answer the question that had to do with Vukovar. Do I have
to
16 give an answer? I do. Those who carried out liquidations were given
17 decorations and were promoted to the rank of general and other such
ranks.
18 They still live in Belgrade and they are wanted by this Tribunal.
So I'm
19 not the one who is inventing things. The only persons who were not
taken
20 out of Vukovar were those who were liquidated in Ovcara.
21 Q. According to the information I have, no army could have executed
22 or liquidated anyone. You know full well as a citizen of Yugoslavia
until
23 it was broken up and you have --
24 JUDGE MAY: This is a matter which the Trial Chamber, I suspect,
25 is going to have to determine in due course, and it sounds as
though these
* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-7.htm
OR http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-7.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the
request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have
organized research to help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And
we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited
to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced
further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's
aggression and experts from Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell
what really happened and expose media lies. Moreover,
Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some friendly and
some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's
use of racism, violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the
Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts
and before the European Court, about which more
news soon. These efforts urgently require financial support. We now
maintain a small staff of Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a
non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we
have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and process evidence and for meetings with witnesses
and lawyers and as a base for organizing press
conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for
attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM secure server so you can contribute
directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
ICDSM office, USA: 1 617 916-1705
SLOBODA (Freedom) Association office, Belgrade: 381 63 279 819
You can Contribute using PayPal at:
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PayPal accepts VISA and MasterCard
You can Contribute by mail to:
ICDSM
831 Beacon St., #295
Newton Centre, MA 02459 (USA)
- OR -
You can Contribute by wire transfer to Sloboda Association
Intermediary:
UBS AG
Zurich, Switzerland
Swift Code: UBSWCHZH
Account with:
/ 756 - CHF
/ 840 - USD
/ 978 - EUR
Kmercijalna Banka AD
SV. Save 14, 11000 Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia
Swift Code: KOBBYUBG
Beneficiary: Account No. 5428-1246-16154-6
SLOBODA
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Thank you!
http://www.icdsm.org