Da: "Vladimir Krsljanin"
Data: Gio 18 Dic 2003 16:06:35 Europe/Rome
Oggetto: Transcript of the "testimony" of war criminal W.Clark
Almost full transcripts of the war between lie and truth - criminals vs.
invinsible President Milosevic can be read at:
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031215ED.htm
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031216ED.htm
The pictures can be seen at:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/draftWC.htm
Airing and spreading of the comments is most welcome!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: ICDSM Italia
Data: Lun 22 Dic 2003 23:34:29 Europe/Rome
A: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Oggetto: [icdsm-italia] Excerpts From ICTY Transcripts...
A. War criminal Wesley Clark testifies at Hague
B. Wesley Clark, War Criminal: Excerpts From ICTY Transcripts
--- A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.workers.org/ww/2003/hague1225.php
War criminal Wesley Clark testifies at Hague
By John Catalinotto
Ex-NATO commander and current U.S. presidential candidate Gen. Wesley
Clark began testifying Dec. 15 at the trial of former Yugoslav
President Slobodan Milosevic in The Hague,
Netherlands.
Outside the courtroom of the Inter national Criminal Tribunal for the
Former Yugoslavia, a group of demonstrators protested both Clark's
appearance and the court's plans to keep his testimony secret, at least
until Dec. 19. U.S. authorities will be allowed to censor any of the
testimony they consider endangering U.S. "national interests" if made
public.
Two of the protesters held a banner reading, "Yankee kangaroo court
secretly fears the truth."
At a news conference organized by the International Committee for the
Defense of Slobodan Milosevic across from the court, Canadian attorney
Tiphaine Dickson pointed out what lay behind the court's decision to
keep the testimony secret. "Any doubt over the political nature of the
ICTY has been erased after the judge let it be known that they accepted
the conditions the U.S. regime demanded of them."
Many lawyers and law professors have pointed out this court's political
nature, and its illegal setup by the United Nations Security Council
under U.S. pressure. Among the ICTY's critics have been former U.S.
Attorney General Ramsey Clark and Canadian attorney Chris Black.
The court only hears alleged crimes of Yugoslavs. It refuses to hear
any charges brought against U.S. or other NATO military or political
leaders.
Though he poses as a "peace candidate," Gen. Wesley Clark directed the
aggressive 78-day U.S.-NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 and admits
responsibility for choosing civilian targets in Serbia during that
bombing campaign.
At least three initiatives recognized Clark's responsibility for these
crimes by naming him along with other NATO political and military
leaders in war crimes indictments.
The three included a war-crimes case in a Belgrade, Yugoslavia, court
that found him and the other leaders guilty on Sept. 22, 2000; a
request, drafted in 1999 by Toronto law professors Michael Mandel and
David Jacobs, that the prosecutor for the ICTY investigate and indict
Gen. Clark and others for war crimes; and a June 10, 2000, People's
Tribunal organized by the International Action Center and others that
found Clark and others guilty of war crimes.
In another repressive move, the ICTY cut President Slobodan Milosevic
off from contact with the public, using as an excuse his candidacy in
the Dec. 28 national elections in Serbia. The Socialist Party of Serbia
chose Milosevic to lead its ticket because the former president has
gained in popularity by defending himself and his country expertly and
with energy before the ICTY.
Reprinted from the Dec. 25, 2003, issue of Workers World newspaper
(Copyright Workers World Service: Everyone is permitted to copy and
distribute verbatim copies of this document, but changing it is not
allowed. For more information contact Workers World, 55 W. 17 St., NY,
NY 10011; via email: ww@.... Subscribe
wwnews-on@.... Unsubscribe wwnews-off@.... Support
independent news http://www.workers.org/orders/donate.php)
--- B
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wesley Clark, War Criminal: Excerpts From ICTY Transcripts
(from: Rick Rozoff)
[Note: A. is Wesley Clark, Q. is Slobodan Milosevic]
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031215ED.htm
Monday, 15 December 2003
A. [On October 20, 1998] I asked him to step aside, I
spoke to him one-on-one, and I warned
Page 30387
1 him that if he didn't comply with the request of the
United Nations, that
2 action would be taken against him in the form of
bombing.
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, just in
order to clarify
24 the basic attitude towards me in relation to this
witness, is it in
25 dispute that General Clark was in command of NATO
during the war against
Page 30418
1 Yugoslavia? And is it disputed that that was his
most important role in
2 everything that related to Yugoslavia? And is it in
dispute that you're
3 not allowing me to ask him anything at all about
that?
4 JUDGE MAY: That's right. Now, ask questions -- if
you wish to
5 ask questions, concentrate on those matters that
you've been told about
6 several times.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I cannot ask him
anything at all
10 about the war waged by NATO against Yugoslavia. Is
that what you're
11 saying?
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, that
really is an
14 example showing that this is truly nothing more
than a farce.
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------11
Q. At that meeting, you presented a plan to me. You
said that you
12 were leaving already on the following day and that
you would be talking to
13 the leadership in Sarajevo headed by Izetbegovic;
is that right?
14 A. Your Honour, that is correct.
15 Q. Do you remember that I suggested to you and that
I cautioned you
16 not to go, as you had intended to go, via Mount
Igman because there isn't
17 a proper road there? There's only a footpath there
basically. It's very
18 dangerous. My suggestion to you was that you should
take the normal road.
19 Do you remember that?
20 A. Your Honour, I don't remember all the ins and
outs of this
21 dialogue. What I do remember is that we had asked
the accused to assure
22 that we could get through on the normal road, that
we wouldn't be stopped
23 by checkpoints and other things. And I do recall
that the accused was
24 able to contact immediately, I believe it was
General Mladic, at least
25 that's the impression that we were given, that I
took from the meeting,
Page 30425
1 and he came back and said that he could not ensure
that we could have an
2 unrestricted passage in at that time on the normal
routes.
3 Q. General Clark, it's exactly the other way around.
I'm going to
4 remind you. First of all, I'm not the one who went
out in order to get
5 into contact with anyone. It's my chef de cabinet,
Goran Milinovic, who
6 went out. I never left the room; I went on talking
to you. Do you
7 remember that?
8 A. Your Honour, I don't remember the specific
details of who left the
9 room or who didn't at that point.
10 Q. All right, General Clark. How come you don't
remember that Goran
11 Milinovic brought a fax containing written
guarantees from General Mladic
12 that you would not be stopped anywhere and that you
can pass along the
13 normal route? That is what we discussed for a long
time, because he came
14 back a few times in order to establish the exact
wording of this guarantee
15 so that it would be absolutely certain that nobody
would stop you, because
16 Holbrooke explained that it would be a great shame
for the delegation if
17 anyone stopped them anywhere. I assume you should
remember that. It was
18 the first meeting. Is that right or is that not
right?
19 A. Your Honour, I don't have any recollection of
this specifically.
20 I do remember that there was discussion about the
route and that we were
21 unable to get satisfactory guarantees that we could
go through it and that
22 that's subsequently why we decided we would go the
Mount Igman route. I
23 don't have any recollection of the details other
than that there was some
24 conversation with Mladic. That is to say that there
was a report that
25 someone had had a conversation with Mladic. We
didn't see that. We
Page 30426
1 stayed in the room. Who might have had that
conversation and what was
2 carried back and forth and so forth, I don't recall.
3 Q. Don't you remember that you were given this
guarantee into your
4 very own hands in writing that you would not be
stopped anywhere and that
5 Holbrooke refused this out of his very own vanity
and that's why four of
6 your men got killed on Mount Igman in the accident
because the APC
7 tumbled? You cannot remember that, General Clark?
Four of your fellow
8 members of the delegation got killed then because of
your vanity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031216ED.htm
Tuesday December 16, 2003
6 Q. Very well, General Clark. That's fine. Since in
your
7 examination-in-chief you quoted me as having told
you that you were a war
8 criminal, am I quoting what you've said, General
Clark, correctly?
9 A. I recall your saying that I would be the war
criminal or that I
10 was a war criminal, yes. That was in the meeting
that we had in Beli Dvor
11 in January of 1999.
12 Q. That is quite true that I said that you would be
a war criminal if
13 you attacked Yugoslavia. That is quite true. I said
to you, "You will be
14 a war criminal if you attack Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia
is a sovereign state
15 and you have no right to intervene militarily in
Yugoslavia." Is that
16 right, General Clark?
17 A. Your Honour, I don't recall all of the
qualifications. I recall
18 the accused becoming very angry, red in the face,
and making accusations.
19 That's what I recall, and that's what I testified
to.
20 Q. So you were heralding a NATO bombardment, and
you said -- and I
21 said that you did not have the right to bomb a
sovereign state, and that
22 if you did that you would be a war criminal. Is
that right, General
23 Clark?
24 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered the question.
There's no
25 need to repeat it.
Page 30453
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you think that you are a war criminal, General
Clark?
4 JUDGE MAY: That's not a proper question.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
6 If it's not a proper question, then I'm going to put
some other
7 questions.
8 Could you put this photograph on the ELMO.
9 JUDGE MAY: What is the photograph about? What is it
of?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The photograph
depicts General Clark
11 together with Hashim Thaci, Agim Ceku, General
Jackson, and Kouchner.
12 They're like the Musketeers with their hands all
together.
13 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't arise from your examination
-- or the
14 examination-in-chief of the witness or his
statement.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, during the
16 examination-in-chief the witness said, when quoting
me, and I confirmed
17 that, that I said to him that he would be a war
criminal if he attacked
18 Yugoslavia. I wish to show him proof of the fact
that what I said to him
19 was correct. So I have the right --
20 JUDGE MAY: You can ask him about the conversation
because that is
21 something which the witness dealt with in chief and
in his statement.
22 You've asked him about the conversation. You've got
the answer. The
23 substance of your allegations, such as they are, is
neither here nor
24 there. All we are concerned with is the fact that
you made these
25 allegations, if there's any significance in it.
Page 30454
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --
2 JUDGE MAY: Don't waste your time arguing about these
matters.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, do I not have
the right to
4 put a question to him in relation to what he himself
stated, that I had
5 said to him that he would be a war criminal? Don't I
have the right to
6 ask him about the consequences of what he did
afterwards?
7 JUDGE MAY: No, and you've heard the reasons. You
know how far
8 you're allowed to go and how far you aren't, and
this goes beyond it. If
9 it's a way to try and get round the ruling, which I
suspect it is, it will
10 not be successful. The witness has answered the
question. He said you
11 did make that allegation, for what it's worth, but
doesn't remember what
12 the qualifications were. Now, we can't take it any
further. All you can
13 ask him about is the conversation itself.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, so I can ask him
about the
15 conversation but I cannot ask him about the content
and meaning of that
16 conversation? Is that what you're trying to say?
17 JUDGE MAY: That's right. That's right. Particularly
these sort
18 of allegations that you're anxious to pursue.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's the
point, Mr. May.
20 This entire farce serves that purpose, to cover up
the crime committed
21 against Yugoslavia by --
22 JUDGE MAY: No, we don't want political speeches
now. We're far
23 too advanced in this trial to listen to this.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. All right. General Clark, do you think that in
view of your
Page 30455
1 military training and education, the high position
you held in the army of
2 the United States and in NATO, that the killing of
civilians, the bombing
3 of --
4 JUDGE MAY: Now, you know quite well that this is not
the sort of
5 question the witness is dealing with. We've told you
before you were
6 asking questions which you were perfectly permitted
to ask before the
7 adjournment. I suggest you return to that.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you are not
allowing me to put a
9 single question in relation to the crimes that this
witness committed
10 against my country?
11 JUDGE MAY: You know quite well that these sort of
questions are
12 not permitted. These sort of allegations which you
make are not matters
13 which can be debated now, or indeed at any time
probably in this trial,
14 unless you show the relevance of it, but it's
certainly not relevant to
15 these -- to this evidence. This kind of allegation
does not assist
16 anybody.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Since
you've said just
18 now, Mr. May, that this cannot be discussed here, I
have here with me the
19 final report that a commission established to look
into the NATO campaign
20 against Yugoslavia, and this commission worked for
the Prosecution --
21 JUDGE MAY: No. You're wasting your own time. It's
very limited.
22 You know quite well what your questioning is
limited to. You must return
23 to it or this cross-examination will stop. It's a
matter for you whether
24 you want the cross-examination to stop or not. Now,
you will go back to
25 what the witness gave evidence about in chief or
this cross-examination
Page 30456
1 will be brought to an end.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
25 Q. You mentioned, General Clark, the KLA in several
sections, in
Page 30500
1 several paragraphs, even in this latest statement of
yours. You talk
2 about their regrouping, you talk about operations
against the KLA, you
3 talk about the existence of the KLA, and so on.
4 You mentioned in your statement that I had said to
you that these
5 were murderers, rapists, plunderers, arsonists, that
these people were
6 terrorists. Do you remember that?
7 JUDGE MAY: Is this the reference now - let's make
sure we have
8 the reference right - to the conversation in October
1998? It's
9 paragraphs --
10 JUDGE KWON: 28.
11 JUDGE MAY: 28. That's the conversation, is it?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That paragraph and
other paragraphs.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So I believe it is not in dispute that I said to
you, General
15 Clark, that these were terrorists, murderers,
rapists, killers of their
16 own kind. Is that right or is that not right? Was
that clear or was that
17 not clear?
18 A. You did say that to me in October of 1998, and
that is the phrase
19 you used. I remember you using it in English,
"murderers, rapists, and
20 killers of their own kind."
21 Q. And terrorists; right? Terrorists first and
foremost.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, please put this
picture on the
23 ELMO. These are men in KLA uniforms, and I hope
that you will recognise
24 the patch on the sleeve, the KLA patch. It can be
seen on the left arm.
25 So there is no doubt that this is the KLA. We see
this too.
Page 30501
1 JUDGE MAY: That is unnecessary. Remove that picture,
please.
2 This is nothing to do with the evidence. Return the
picture, please, to
3 the accused.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, these men in
KLA uniforms,
5 I mean, this man is holding two Serb heads that had
been cut off. Is that
6 confirmation? I mean, are these allies of General
Clark's infantry in
7 Kosovo?
........
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The general -- well,
I mean the
21 general is speaking in general terms about the KLA,
and you did not allow
22 me to show a picture yesterday of the three
Musketeers where he is like
23 D'Artagnan with the leaders of these terrorists.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. General, you actually commanded these
formations, these units that
Page 30503
1 cut off Serb heads.
..........
Q) You say in paragraph 28: "We know how to handle
these Albanians,
21 these murderers, these rapists, these killers of
their own kind. We have
22 taken care of them before." And you talk about
1946.
23 General, obviously you do not know history, the
history of the
24 Second World War. Do you know that in this context
I did not speak to you
25 about this at all? I'm going to remind you. I was
saying that many
Page 30504
1 members of Hitler's army who were Albanians and who
had been crushed spent
2 all of two years after the war in the mountains of
Kosovo, notably in
3 Drenica, and they were killing people, and that the
Yugoslav army spent
4 all of two years with them in Kosovo finishing off
the Second World War.
5 They were members of Hitler's units that remained in
the hills up there,
6 and the war went on for two more years over there in
Kosovo. Truth to
7 tell, it was a low-intensity conflict.
............
8 Q. General Clark, isn't it clear that the reference
here is not to
9 Albanians but to terrorists who that year had killed
more Albanians than
10 Serbs, as a matter of fact? These were terrorists
and killers towards
11 which every country, every nation is entitled to
take measures when
12 dealing with terrorists, killers, rapists,
torturists, slaughterers. That
13 was the reference, and not to Albanians. I never
used the name of a
14 people to link it to killers. Killers are killers.
Terrorists are
15 terrorists, regardless of what nation they may
belong to.
16 In this case, we were talking about terrorists and
killers, and in
17 1946 --
...............
19 And secondly, General, you certainly must know that
it was the
20 German intelligence service, in fact, that worked
on the formation of
21 terrorist groups and the equipping of the KLA. As
NATO commander, you
22 must have had such intelligence information.
.................
. Are you aware of the fact that after that,
23 after that October agreement, there were 470
terrorist attacks and 22
24 violations of the border between October and
December? This is contained
25 in a letter addressed by our Foreign Minister
Zivadin Jovanovic to Kofi
Page 30514
1 Annan in December 1998, in which he says that 1.854
terrorist attacks took
2 place, that 244 persons were killed, 566 wounded,
and after the signing of
3 the agreement, 470 terrorist attacks from the end of
October up until
4 December. Are you aware of that?
.................
23 You said a short while ago that you wanted to have
something
24 struck from the record. You wanted to say, as a
matter of fact, for the
25 record that the KLA was not a terrorist
organisation. Isn't that right,
Page 30530
1 General Clark?
2 A. Your Honour, I do not consider the KLA a
terrorist organisation.
3 Q. All right. Tell me, then, who was it then in 1998
that carried
4 out these 1.854 terrorist attacks, having killed
hundreds of people,
5 having wounded hundreds of people, civilians,
policemen, soldiers? Who
6 did that then in 1998 if not terrorists? Who could
have done it?
7 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop these rhetorical
questions. What is
8 the question?
.......................
3 Q. General Clark, since you claim that these
individuals who carried
4 out these acts of terrorism are not terrorists,
although several
5 resolutions of the Security Council refer to
terrorism in Kosovo, you
6 nevertheless claim that they are not terrorists.
7 Please answer a question: Is your election campaign
financed by
8 Albanian circles including the KLA?
...................
24 Q. You caused a humanitarian catastrophe, General
Clark. You didn't
25 save anyone. And since you were the NATO commander,
I assume that you
Page 30538
1 know that the Helsinki final act explicitly
authorises states to fight
2 against terrorism in their own territory and that no
other state has the
3 right to stop it or prevent it from doing that. You
interfered in this
4 conflict and you took the side of the terrorists,
General Clark. Is that
5 right or is that not right?
..................
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should first like
to refer to what
22 Mr. Nice has said, that apparently they're
investigating all crimes. If
23 they are investigating all crimes, then you have
first of all the
24 photograph of Clark, Hashim Thaci, Ceku and all the
others who were in
25 command of those crimes. As for the other
photographs that I showed, I
Page 30585
1 have the name of the person holding those heads and
the names of the Serbs
2 who were beheaded. And the photographs that I wanted
to show him, because
3 it was his allies that he is keeping company with
who did this.
4 Unfortunately, you are not investigating all crimes.
==========================
ICDSM - Sezione Italiana
c/o GAMADI, Via L. Da Vinci 27
00043 Ciampino (Roma)
email: icdsm-italia@...
Conto Corrente Postale numero 86557006
intestato ad Adolfo Amoroso, ROMA
causale: DIFESA MILOSEVIC
Data: Gio 18 Dic 2003 16:06:35 Europe/Rome
Oggetto: Transcript of the "testimony" of war criminal W.Clark
Almost full transcripts of the war between lie and truth - criminals vs.
invinsible President Milosevic can be read at:
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031215ED.htm
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031216ED.htm
The pictures can be seen at:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/draftWC.htm
Airing and spreading of the comments is most welcome!
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Da: ICDSM Italia
Data: Lun 22 Dic 2003 23:34:29 Europe/Rome
A: This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
Oggetto: [icdsm-italia] Excerpts From ICTY Transcripts...
A. War criminal Wesley Clark testifies at Hague
B. Wesley Clark, War Criminal: Excerpts From ICTY Transcripts
--- A
------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.workers.org/ww/2003/hague1225.php
War criminal Wesley Clark testifies at Hague
By John Catalinotto
Ex-NATO commander and current U.S. presidential candidate Gen. Wesley
Clark began testifying Dec. 15 at the trial of former Yugoslav
President Slobodan Milosevic in The Hague,
Netherlands.
Outside the courtroom of the Inter national Criminal Tribunal for the
Former Yugoslavia, a group of demonstrators protested both Clark's
appearance and the court's plans to keep his testimony secret, at least
until Dec. 19. U.S. authorities will be allowed to censor any of the
testimony they consider endangering U.S. "national interests" if made
public.
Two of the protesters held a banner reading, "Yankee kangaroo court
secretly fears the truth."
At a news conference organized by the International Committee for the
Defense of Slobodan Milosevic across from the court, Canadian attorney
Tiphaine Dickson pointed out what lay behind the court's decision to
keep the testimony secret. "Any doubt over the political nature of the
ICTY has been erased after the judge let it be known that they accepted
the conditions the U.S. regime demanded of them."
Many lawyers and law professors have pointed out this court's political
nature, and its illegal setup by the United Nations Security Council
under U.S. pressure. Among the ICTY's critics have been former U.S.
Attorney General Ramsey Clark and Canadian attorney Chris Black.
The court only hears alleged crimes of Yugoslavs. It refuses to hear
any charges brought against U.S. or other NATO military or political
leaders.
Though he poses as a "peace candidate," Gen. Wesley Clark directed the
aggressive 78-day U.S.-NATO bombing of Yugoslavia in 1999 and admits
responsibility for choosing civilian targets in Serbia during that
bombing campaign.
At least three initiatives recognized Clark's responsibility for these
crimes by naming him along with other NATO political and military
leaders in war crimes indictments.
The three included a war-crimes case in a Belgrade, Yugoslavia, court
that found him and the other leaders guilty on Sept. 22, 2000; a
request, drafted in 1999 by Toronto law professors Michael Mandel and
David Jacobs, that the prosecutor for the ICTY investigate and indict
Gen. Clark and others for war crimes; and a June 10, 2000, People's
Tribunal organized by the International Action Center and others that
found Clark and others guilty of war crimes.
In another repressive move, the ICTY cut President Slobodan Milosevic
off from contact with the public, using as an excuse his candidacy in
the Dec. 28 national elections in Serbia. The Socialist Party of Serbia
chose Milosevic to lead its ticket because the former president has
gained in popularity by defending himself and his country expertly and
with energy before the ICTY.
Reprinted from the Dec. 25, 2003, issue of Workers World newspaper
(Copyright Workers World Service: Everyone is permitted to copy and
distribute verbatim copies of this document, but changing it is not
allowed. For more information contact Workers World, 55 W. 17 St., NY,
NY 10011; via email: ww@.... Subscribe
wwnews-on@.... Unsubscribe wwnews-off@.... Support
independent news http://www.workers.org/orders/donate.php)
--- B
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wesley Clark, War Criminal: Excerpts From ICTY Transcripts
(from: Rick Rozoff)
[Note: A. is Wesley Clark, Q. is Slobodan Milosevic]
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031215ED.htm
Monday, 15 December 2003
A. [On October 20, 1998] I asked him to step aside, I
spoke to him one-on-one, and I warned
Page 30387
1 him that if he didn't comply with the request of the
United Nations, that
2 action would be taken against him in the form of
bombing.
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, just in
order to clarify
24 the basic attitude towards me in relation to this
witness, is it in
25 dispute that General Clark was in command of NATO
during the war against
Page 30418
1 Yugoslavia? And is it disputed that that was his
most important role in
2 everything that related to Yugoslavia? And is it in
dispute that you're
3 not allowing me to ask him anything at all about
that?
4 JUDGE MAY: That's right. Now, ask questions -- if
you wish to
5 ask questions, concentrate on those matters that
you've been told about
6 several times.
9 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So I cannot ask him
anything at all
10 about the war waged by NATO against Yugoslavia. Is
that what you're
11 saying?
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, Mr. May, that
really is an
14 example showing that this is truly nothing more
than a farce.
-------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------11
Q. At that meeting, you presented a plan to me. You
said that you
12 were leaving already on the following day and that
you would be talking to
13 the leadership in Sarajevo headed by Izetbegovic;
is that right?
14 A. Your Honour, that is correct.
15 Q. Do you remember that I suggested to you and that
I cautioned you
16 not to go, as you had intended to go, via Mount
Igman because there isn't
17 a proper road there? There's only a footpath there
basically. It's very
18 dangerous. My suggestion to you was that you should
take the normal road.
19 Do you remember that?
20 A. Your Honour, I don't remember all the ins and
outs of this
21 dialogue. What I do remember is that we had asked
the accused to assure
22 that we could get through on the normal road, that
we wouldn't be stopped
23 by checkpoints and other things. And I do recall
that the accused was
24 able to contact immediately, I believe it was
General Mladic, at least
25 that's the impression that we were given, that I
took from the meeting,
Page 30425
1 and he came back and said that he could not ensure
that we could have an
2 unrestricted passage in at that time on the normal
routes.
3 Q. General Clark, it's exactly the other way around.
I'm going to
4 remind you. First of all, I'm not the one who went
out in order to get
5 into contact with anyone. It's my chef de cabinet,
Goran Milinovic, who
6 went out. I never left the room; I went on talking
to you. Do you
7 remember that?
8 A. Your Honour, I don't remember the specific
details of who left the
9 room or who didn't at that point.
10 Q. All right, General Clark. How come you don't
remember that Goran
11 Milinovic brought a fax containing written
guarantees from General Mladic
12 that you would not be stopped anywhere and that you
can pass along the
13 normal route? That is what we discussed for a long
time, because he came
14 back a few times in order to establish the exact
wording of this guarantee
15 so that it would be absolutely certain that nobody
would stop you, because
16 Holbrooke explained that it would be a great shame
for the delegation if
17 anyone stopped them anywhere. I assume you should
remember that. It was
18 the first meeting. Is that right or is that not
right?
19 A. Your Honour, I don't have any recollection of
this specifically.
20 I do remember that there was discussion about the
route and that we were
21 unable to get satisfactory guarantees that we could
go through it and that
22 that's subsequently why we decided we would go the
Mount Igman route. I
23 don't have any recollection of the details other
than that there was some
24 conversation with Mladic. That is to say that there
was a report that
25 someone had had a conversation with Mladic. We
didn't see that. We
Page 30426
1 stayed in the room. Who might have had that
conversation and what was
2 carried back and forth and so forth, I don't recall.
3 Q. Don't you remember that you were given this
guarantee into your
4 very own hands in writing that you would not be
stopped anywhere and that
5 Holbrooke refused this out of his very own vanity
and that's why four of
6 your men got killed on Mount Igman in the accident
because the APC
7 tumbled? You cannot remember that, General Clark?
Four of your fellow
8 members of the delegation got killed then because of
your vanity.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
http://www.un.org/icty/transe54/031216ED.htm
Tuesday December 16, 2003
6 Q. Very well, General Clark. That's fine. Since in
your
7 examination-in-chief you quoted me as having told
you that you were a war
8 criminal, am I quoting what you've said, General
Clark, correctly?
9 A. I recall your saying that I would be the war
criminal or that I
10 was a war criminal, yes. That was in the meeting
that we had in Beli Dvor
11 in January of 1999.
12 Q. That is quite true that I said that you would be
a war criminal if
13 you attacked Yugoslavia. That is quite true. I said
to you, "You will be
14 a war criminal if you attack Yugoslavia. Yugoslavia
is a sovereign state
15 and you have no right to intervene militarily in
Yugoslavia." Is that
16 right, General Clark?
17 A. Your Honour, I don't recall all of the
qualifications. I recall
18 the accused becoming very angry, red in the face,
and making accusations.
19 That's what I recall, and that's what I testified
to.
20 Q. So you were heralding a NATO bombardment, and
you said -- and I
21 said that you did not have the right to bomb a
sovereign state, and that
22 if you did that you would be a war criminal. Is
that right, General
23 Clark?
24 JUDGE MAY: The witness has answered the question.
There's no
25 need to repeat it.
Page 30453
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Do you think that you are a war criminal, General
Clark?
4 JUDGE MAY: That's not a proper question.
5 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right.
6 If it's not a proper question, then I'm going to put
some other
7 questions.
8 Could you put this photograph on the ELMO.
9 JUDGE MAY: What is the photograph about? What is it
of?
10 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The photograph
depicts General Clark
11 together with Hashim Thaci, Agim Ceku, General
Jackson, and Kouchner.
12 They're like the Musketeers with their hands all
together.
13 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't arise from your examination
-- or the
14 examination-in-chief of the witness or his
statement.
15 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, during the
16 examination-in-chief the witness said, when quoting
me, and I confirmed
17 that, that I said to him that he would be a war
criminal if he attacked
18 Yugoslavia. I wish to show him proof of the fact
that what I said to him
19 was correct. So I have the right --
20 JUDGE MAY: You can ask him about the conversation
because that is
21 something which the witness dealt with in chief and
in his statement.
22 You've asked him about the conversation. You've got
the answer. The
23 substance of your allegations, such as they are, is
neither here nor
24 there. All we are concerned with is the fact that
you made these
25 allegations, if there's any significance in it.
Page 30454
1 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May --
2 JUDGE MAY: Don't waste your time arguing about these
matters.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, do I not have
the right to
4 put a question to him in relation to what he himself
stated, that I had
5 said to him that he would be a war criminal? Don't I
have the right to
6 ask him about the consequences of what he did
afterwards?
7 JUDGE MAY: No, and you've heard the reasons. You
know how far
8 you're allowed to go and how far you aren't, and
this goes beyond it. If
9 it's a way to try and get round the ruling, which I
suspect it is, it will
10 not be successful. The witness has answered the
question. He said you
11 did make that allegation, for what it's worth, but
doesn't remember what
12 the qualifications were. Now, we can't take it any
further. All you can
13 ask him about is the conversation itself.
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Oh, so I can ask him
about the
15 conversation but I cannot ask him about the content
and meaning of that
16 conversation? Is that what you're trying to say?
17 JUDGE MAY: That's right. That's right. Particularly
these sort
18 of allegations that you're anxious to pursue.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Well, that's the
point, Mr. May.
20 This entire farce serves that purpose, to cover up
the crime committed
21 against Yugoslavia by --
22 JUDGE MAY: No, we don't want political speeches
now. We're far
23 too advanced in this trial to listen to this.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. All right. General Clark, do you think that in
view of your
Page 30455
1 military training and education, the high position
you held in the army of
2 the United States and in NATO, that the killing of
civilians, the bombing
3 of --
4 JUDGE MAY: Now, you know quite well that this is not
the sort of
5 question the witness is dealing with. We've told you
before you were
6 asking questions which you were perfectly permitted
to ask before the
7 adjournment. I suggest you return to that.
8 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] So you are not
allowing me to put a
9 single question in relation to the crimes that this
witness committed
10 against my country?
11 JUDGE MAY: You know quite well that these sort of
questions are
12 not permitted. These sort of allegations which you
make are not matters
13 which can be debated now, or indeed at any time
probably in this trial,
14 unless you show the relevance of it, but it's
certainly not relevant to
15 these -- to this evidence. This kind of allegation
does not assist
16 anybody.
17 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] All right. Since
you've said just
18 now, Mr. May, that this cannot be discussed here, I
have here with me the
19 final report that a commission established to look
into the NATO campaign
20 against Yugoslavia, and this commission worked for
the Prosecution --
21 JUDGE MAY: No. You're wasting your own time. It's
very limited.
22 You know quite well what your questioning is
limited to. You must return
23 to it or this cross-examination will stop. It's a
matter for you whether
24 you want the cross-examination to stop or not. Now,
you will go back to
25 what the witness gave evidence about in chief or
this cross-examination
Page 30456
1 will be brought to an end.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------
25 Q. You mentioned, General Clark, the KLA in several
sections, in
Page 30500
1 several paragraphs, even in this latest statement of
yours. You talk
2 about their regrouping, you talk about operations
against the KLA, you
3 talk about the existence of the KLA, and so on.
4 You mentioned in your statement that I had said to
you that these
5 were murderers, rapists, plunderers, arsonists, that
these people were
6 terrorists. Do you remember that?
7 JUDGE MAY: Is this the reference now - let's make
sure we have
8 the reference right - to the conversation in October
1998? It's
9 paragraphs --
10 JUDGE KWON: 28.
11 JUDGE MAY: 28. That's the conversation, is it?
12 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That paragraph and
other paragraphs.
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. So I believe it is not in dispute that I said to
you, General
15 Clark, that these were terrorists, murderers,
rapists, killers of their
16 own kind. Is that right or is that not right? Was
that clear or was that
17 not clear?
18 A. You did say that to me in October of 1998, and
that is the phrase
19 you used. I remember you using it in English,
"murderers, rapists, and
20 killers of their own kind."
21 Q. And terrorists; right? Terrorists first and
foremost.
22 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Now, please put this
picture on the
23 ELMO. These are men in KLA uniforms, and I hope
that you will recognise
24 the patch on the sleeve, the KLA patch. It can be
seen on the left arm.
25 So there is no doubt that this is the KLA. We see
this too.
Page 30501
1 JUDGE MAY: That is unnecessary. Remove that picture,
please.
2 This is nothing to do with the evidence. Return the
picture, please, to
3 the accused.
4 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Mr. May, these men in
KLA uniforms,
5 I mean, this man is holding two Serb heads that had
been cut off. Is that
6 confirmation? I mean, are these allies of General
Clark's infantry in
7 Kosovo?
........
20 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] The general -- well,
I mean the
21 general is speaking in general terms about the KLA,
and you did not allow
22 me to show a picture yesterday of the three
Musketeers where he is like
23 D'Artagnan with the leaders of these terrorists.
24 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
25 Q. General, you actually commanded these
formations, these units that
Page 30503
1 cut off Serb heads.
..........
Q) You say in paragraph 28: "We know how to handle
these Albanians,
21 these murderers, these rapists, these killers of
their own kind. We have
22 taken care of them before." And you talk about
1946.
23 General, obviously you do not know history, the
history of the
24 Second World War. Do you know that in this context
I did not speak to you
25 about this at all? I'm going to remind you. I was
saying that many
Page 30504
1 members of Hitler's army who were Albanians and who
had been crushed spent
2 all of two years after the war in the mountains of
Kosovo, notably in
3 Drenica, and they were killing people, and that the
Yugoslav army spent
4 all of two years with them in Kosovo finishing off
the Second World War.
5 They were members of Hitler's units that remained in
the hills up there,
6 and the war went on for two more years over there in
Kosovo. Truth to
7 tell, it was a low-intensity conflict.
............
8 Q. General Clark, isn't it clear that the reference
here is not to
9 Albanians but to terrorists who that year had killed
more Albanians than
10 Serbs, as a matter of fact? These were terrorists
and killers towards
11 which every country, every nation is entitled to
take measures when
12 dealing with terrorists, killers, rapists,
torturists, slaughterers. That
13 was the reference, and not to Albanians. I never
used the name of a
14 people to link it to killers. Killers are killers.
Terrorists are
15 terrorists, regardless of what nation they may
belong to.
16 In this case, we were talking about terrorists and
killers, and in
17 1946 --
...............
19 And secondly, General, you certainly must know that
it was the
20 German intelligence service, in fact, that worked
on the formation of
21 terrorist groups and the equipping of the KLA. As
NATO commander, you
22 must have had such intelligence information.
.................
. Are you aware of the fact that after that,
23 after that October agreement, there were 470
terrorist attacks and 22
24 violations of the border between October and
December? This is contained
25 in a letter addressed by our Foreign Minister
Zivadin Jovanovic to Kofi
Page 30514
1 Annan in December 1998, in which he says that 1.854
terrorist attacks took
2 place, that 244 persons were killed, 566 wounded,
and after the signing of
3 the agreement, 470 terrorist attacks from the end of
October up until
4 December. Are you aware of that?
.................
23 You said a short while ago that you wanted to have
something
24 struck from the record. You wanted to say, as a
matter of fact, for the
25 record that the KLA was not a terrorist
organisation. Isn't that right,
Page 30530
1 General Clark?
2 A. Your Honour, I do not consider the KLA a
terrorist organisation.
3 Q. All right. Tell me, then, who was it then in 1998
that carried
4 out these 1.854 terrorist attacks, having killed
hundreds of people,
5 having wounded hundreds of people, civilians,
policemen, soldiers? Who
6 did that then in 1998 if not terrorists? Who could
have done it?
7 JUDGE MAY: I'm going to stop these rhetorical
questions. What is
8 the question?
.......................
3 Q. General Clark, since you claim that these
individuals who carried
4 out these acts of terrorism are not terrorists,
although several
5 resolutions of the Security Council refer to
terrorism in Kosovo, you
6 nevertheless claim that they are not terrorists.
7 Please answer a question: Is your election campaign
financed by
8 Albanian circles including the KLA?
...................
24 Q. You caused a humanitarian catastrophe, General
Clark. You didn't
25 save anyone. And since you were the NATO commander,
I assume that you
Page 30538
1 know that the Helsinki final act explicitly
authorises states to fight
2 against terrorism in their own territory and that no
other state has the
3 right to stop it or prevent it from doing that. You
interfered in this
4 conflict and you took the side of the terrorists,
General Clark. Is that
5 right or is that not right?
..................
21 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I should first like
to refer to what
22 Mr. Nice has said, that apparently they're
investigating all crimes. If
23 they are investigating all crimes, then you have
first of all the
24 photograph of Clark, Hashim Thaci, Ceku and all the
others who were in
25 command of those crimes. As for the other
photographs that I showed, I
Page 30585
1 have the name of the person holding those heads and
the names of the Serbs
2 who were beheaded. And the photographs that I wanted
to show him, because
3 it was his allies that he is keeping company with
who did this.
4 Unfortunately, you are not investigating all crimes.
==========================
ICDSM - Sezione Italiana
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