International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART IX
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into
12 easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10702
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10703
1 issued a decision on the withdrawal of the reserve forces of the
police
2 from municipalities, mostly in the Krajina, where the Serbs were in
the
3 majority, you remember that, I assume.
4 A. This is yet another lie and another trick. A decision was made to
5 collect weapons in all municipalities of the Republic of Croatia so
that
6 Croatia could defend herself, because the authorities in Belgrade
had
7 previously issued a decision that all weapons should be withdrawn
from
8 Croatia so that Croatia could be brought to her knees.
9 The Territorial Defence, I have to explain, was commanded by a
10 staff in Zagreb, the staff of the Territorial Defence. The army -
that
11 is, the army of the SFRY - was commanded by the General Staff in
Belgrade,
12 but both were components of the armed forces of Yugoslavia. We held
the
13 opinion that it was improper to withdraw weapons from the
Territorial
14 Defence because these weapons were protected in Croatia. However,
15 evidently the regime of Slobodan Milosevic and his subordinates
felt it
16 was in their interest to disarm Croatia and to arm the rebellious
Serbs in
17 order to implement the plan that General Kadijevic also speaks
about, and
18 that is the establishing of the Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag
border. I
19 know the accused does not like this, but these are the facts.
20 Q. There's nothing for me to dislike here. These are not facts but
21 your political opinions, Mr. Mesic, because you have failed to put
forward
22 a single fact here.
23 Along with a decision to collect the weapons from the Serb areas
24 in late July, you also made a decision to establish the National
Guard
25 Corps. This was a paramilitary formation. Is this correct or not?
Page 10704
1 A. I have to remind the accused that, on the one hand, there were
2 illegal paramilitary organisations and there were legal paramilitary
3 organisations. The police force is also a paramilitary organisation.
4 They have weapons, they have uniforms, and they have a chain of
command.
5 But they are not an army. Croatia adopted a decision that the
National
6 Guard Corps be established. Its purpose, in fact, was to be
something
7 like the gendarmes in France or the carabinieri in Italy. We wanted
to
8 have a unit which could be activated, in case of need, if the vital
9 interests of the Republic of Croatia were threatened. At that time,
this
10 was not yet the Croatian army.
11 Q. This decision of the Croatian government was to have been
12 implemented, first of all, in the area of Lika, where Serbs made up
93 per
13 cent of the population; is that correct or not?
14 A. Where did you get this 93 per cent? That's not true.
15 Q. Very well, then. The majority.
16 A. Well, 93 per cent and 51 per cent is a big difference. But as we
17 have heard, the accused no longer stands by the usual kind of
arithmetic.
18 Q. When the political and security situation deteriorated, did the
19 political leadership of the Serbs in Krajina decide to hold a
referendum
20 on autonomy? This was in late August 1990.
21 A. I have to respond again, although I have already answered a part
22 of this question: Weapons were collected on the entire territory of
the
23 Republic of Croatia, and the referendum was illegal, and Croatia
failed to
24 recognise it, did not recognise it, because it was an illegal
referendum,
25 and in Croatia law has to be respected.
Page 10705
1 Q. Is it correct that on the 16th and 17th of August, when the
police
2 set out toward Benkovac, where 10.000 Serbs had gathered, do you
think
3 that this move that you made had anything to do with the reactions
of the
4 Serbs and that it was not actually incited by the authorities of
Serbia?
5 You said Belgrade -- I mean, when you say "Belgrade," I assume
you're
6 referring to the federal organs of Yugoslavia, not to the leadership
of
7 the Republic of Serbia.
8 A. I'm referring to the accused and his regime and his links with
the
9 Yugoslav army.
10 Q. All right. We're going to get to that a bit later.
11 Did this have anything to do with the reaction of the Serbs, the
12 fact that the police set out to Benkovac, where 10.000 Serbs had
13 assembled? Is that correct or is that not correct?
14 A. The police did not set out against anyone. They could only
15 provide security at the rally.
16 Q. Oh, so they went there to guarantee their security.
17 A. Yes, by all means.
18 Q. Do you think that such wrong decisions of yours, to send police
to
19 places where people had rallies, in spite of the constitutional
right to
20 freedom of assembly, was a wrongful decision which made the Serbs
place
21 roadblocks; this was not part of a struggle for a greater Serbia?
22 A. During this trial I've answered that question too.
23 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. After this Croatian government was
24 constituted, the one whose prime minister you were, wasn't it clear
that
25 at that time the activity of the organised arming of HDZ members
started?
Page 10706
1 Is that right or is that not right? Is that being contested too?
2 A. I was prime minister of Croatia for three months before I went to
3 Belgrade, and on the 17th of August, 1990, the log revolution
started.
4 Roads were blocked, roads that were of vital interest to the economy
of
5 Croatia. Croatia had to survive, both politically and economically.
Who
6 was it who was destroying Croatia then? Was it those who wanted to
7 establish free traffic on Croatian roads or those who were carrying
out
8 orders issued by the accused and provoking the Croatian authorities?
9 Q. All right. It just so happens that the accused at that time was
10 vacationing in Dubrovnik and heard about this from the newspapers
there.
11 But are you trying to say that logs are some kind of offensive
weapon, or
12 is it the police that enters settled areas and attacks people? Was
13 anybody ever attacked by a log?
14 A. Yes, logs are a very lethal weapon, because they do not allow
15 free communication in Croatia. They do not allow the economy to
16 function. This is a grave attack on the Croatian economy and the
Croatian
17 state. Before that, I would really like to hear where this
happened,
18 where the police attacked someone so the Croatian roads had to be
19 blocked. I would really like to hear that once and for all.
20 Q. I've given you countless examples - I've presented them here
21 anyway - during 1989 and 1990, many examples. I even quoted your
own
22 newspapers to you, about incursions, about arrests, about people
being
23 taken away and who are still missing. You know about that. Mr.
Mesic, do
24 you think that since at that time you were prime minister, you are
the
25 guiltiest person of all for clashes with the Serbs in Croatia?
Page 10707
1 A. Although this is nonsensical, I am going to dignify it with an
2 answer. They opted to provoke the Croatian authorities in order to
3 establish the boundary that I refer to. Specifically in Pakrac,
there was
4 a conflict between two streams in one police station.
5 Q. All right. You've already explained that.
6 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He's taking up my time. He spoke
8 about it yesterday.
9 JUDGE MAY: You've put serious allegations to him. He must be
10 able to answer them.
11 Yes. Go on, Mr. Mesic.
12 A. Since part of the police station was disarmed, the Minister of
the
13 Interior sent reinforcements in and disarmed the attackers. That
brought
14 an end to it all. However, the army came into the streets with 20
or 30
15 tanks, and they purportedly separated the conflicting parties.
There were
16 no conflicting parties. There were those who were attacking the
police
17 and there were those who were protecting the police. There were no
two
18 parties that were clashing. There was not an interethnic conflict
there.
19 Nobody was wounded. Nobody was killed. I came to Belgrade. Borislav
20 Jovic, the representative Serbian of the Presidency of Yugoslavia,
said
21 that there was a massacre of Serbs in Pakrac, where 40 persons were
22 massacred. I said, "Well, I was in Pakrac yesterday. Nobody was
wounded.
23 Where did you read that?" And he said, "In the Titograd daily
newspaper
24 of Pobjeda." Now, where is Titograd? Where is Pakrac? They have
nothing
25 to do with each other. But it is obvious that this is a scenario.
The
Page 10708
1 army was supposed to be brought into the picture to ensure the
boundaries
2 that not only General Kadijevic knows of very well but also this
accused,
3 Slobodan Milosevic.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This accused doesn't, and I do not consider myself to be accused
6 by this false indictment. And since you behaved the way that you
behaved,
7 that you behaved in this broad-minded, democratic manner, how is it
8 then possible and why were you the protagonist of a programme that
Serbs
9 were supposed to be expelled from the constitution of Croatia as a
10 constituent and state-building people?
11 A. Croatia proclaimed its independence. It had its own
12 institutions, it had its own parliament, and it passed laws. I'm
not in a
13 position now to interpret why each and every law was passed and in
which
14 way and how the constitution was adopted. There is a procedure
involved.
15 I don't know in which case I would have to give answers now in
respect of
16 a decision that is reached by the parliament of my country.
17 Q. A parliament that you chaired. So you believe that you preserved
18 the status of the Serbs that they had according to all previous
19 constitutions. I mean, had you retained that status for them, that
they
20 still would have rebelled; is that your opinion?
21 A. Institutionally, no rights of Serbs or of any other ethnic group
22 were violated. I admit that there were some messages that were
23 unacceptable, but they had to be discussed at a table, not by
destroying
24 Dubrovnik, not by destroying Vukovar, Skabrnja, Vucine, not
Cetekovac, not
25 by massacring people. In that way, not a single conflict can be
resolved.
Page 10709
1 Q. Mr. Mesic, as a member of the Presidency, later on you even
2 compounded your responsibility for everything that happened to the
Serbs
3 in 1991 and 1992 and later on your responsibility as Croatia's -- as
the
4 president of Croatia's parliament, at the beginning of 2000, you
stated,
5 on television, that the Croats in 1995, through military actions,
that is
6 to say, through storm and flash, in the war for the homeland, that
they
7 won a glorious victory. Mr. Mesic, no doubt storm and flash are
actions
8 that meant carrying out war crimes and ethnic cleansing, ethnic
cleansing
9 of practically all Serbs from Croatia. Do you --
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you know that this is not the time to
11 make speeches or try and give evidence, which you're trying to do.
Have
12 you got a question to ask the witness?
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Please, I do have a question. If these were glorious actions,
why
15 are you saying now that Bobetko should be held responsible if he
was doing
16 something glorious, in your words?
17 A. The victories in the homeland war were glorious because they
made
18 it possible for Croatia to reach each and every part of the
Croatian state
19 and to establish the functioning of the institutions of the
Croatian
20 state. In these battles, crimes may occur, as always. I am
advocating
21 the following: That everybody should be held accountable for what
he did.
22 Croatia adopted a constitutional law in cooperation with The Hague
23 Tribunal. I am advocating the following: That everybody should have
the
24 right to defence. All suspects should be held accountable before
The
25 Hague Tribunal. If these are Croatian citizens, then they should
have the
Page 10710
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 10711
1 right to defence, maximum defence, implying dignity and respect for
2 everything that everyone did by way of a contribution to the
independence
3 of Croatia. But I want each and every citizen to be equal before the
law
4 because it is only then that we can expect to realise our strategic
5 objectives and that is to become part of European and Atlantic
alliances,
6 which is truly our strategic objective.
7 Q. All right. It is my understanding that the expulsion of 250.000
8 Serbs from Krajina and taking tens of thousands of them out of
columns,
9 according to the findings of Commissioner Ema Bonino, and these
persons
10 went missing, simply that you are calling all of this individuals
crimes
11 and individual actions. The expulsion of 250.000 Serbs and the
12 destruction of thousands of persons who were in these columns. You
are
13 calling this individual crimes within this glorious --
14 JUDGE MAY: The witness has dealt with this, and it's not clear
15 what relevance this has to this particular indictment. These are
events
16 in 1995. Yes let's move on to something else.
17 MR. NICE: I'm concerned if there's to be the time limitation that
18 the Chamber has identified that the accused is simply not dealing
with the
19 matters on which evidence has been given, and typically in the last
20 question but two he slid over 1991 and 1992 with an allegation to
which
21 the witness was not allowed to give an answer, that being exactly
the time
22 of the Presidency, the Rump Presidency, and the other matters that
we
23 should be investigating.
24 JUDGE MAY: What was the question that you say he should have been
25 able to answer.
Page 10712
1 MR. NICE: Well, it was where he suggested -- I'll just find it
2 again. He simply suggested that he compounded everything by his
behaviour
3 in 1991 and 1992, without putting any particulars.
4 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has dealt with that.
5 Mr. Nice, there is a question of time. We understood that the
6 witness could not be available tomorrow. Is that right?
7 MR. NICE: The way I expressed it was he was definitely available
8 yesterday and today and that he might be available for tomorrow. I
know
9 his original plans were to travel back tomorrow. But the Chamber
will of
10 course be in the witness's hands and he'll know better than I, I
not
11 having spoken to him yesterday, what his availability now is.
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, could you help us with this? You've heard
13 about this question of time. Are you available tomorrow at all in
the
14 morning or do you have to get back?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have some engagements tomorrow
16 afternoon, so I could be present in this courtroom for part of the
morning
17 tomorrow.
18 JUDGE MAY: Could you be here for an hour, say from 9.00 to 10.00?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
21 Well, Mr. Milosevic, you can have until 2.00 today. You can
22 have --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 JUDGE MAY: You can have a few minutes tomorrow in addition to
25 that, but there must be time for the other parties to cross-examine
and
* Continued at: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-10.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two
organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in
his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this
phase of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of
racism, violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news
soon. These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
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For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
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Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART IX
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into
12 easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10702
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10703
1 issued a decision on the withdrawal of the reserve forces of the
police
2 from municipalities, mostly in the Krajina, where the Serbs were in
the
3 majority, you remember that, I assume.
4 A. This is yet another lie and another trick. A decision was made to
5 collect weapons in all municipalities of the Republic of Croatia so
that
6 Croatia could defend herself, because the authorities in Belgrade
had
7 previously issued a decision that all weapons should be withdrawn
from
8 Croatia so that Croatia could be brought to her knees.
9 The Territorial Defence, I have to explain, was commanded by a
10 staff in Zagreb, the staff of the Territorial Defence. The army -
that
11 is, the army of the SFRY - was commanded by the General Staff in
Belgrade,
12 but both were components of the armed forces of Yugoslavia. We held
the
13 opinion that it was improper to withdraw weapons from the
Territorial
14 Defence because these weapons were protected in Croatia. However,
15 evidently the regime of Slobodan Milosevic and his subordinates
felt it
16 was in their interest to disarm Croatia and to arm the rebellious
Serbs in
17 order to implement the plan that General Kadijevic also speaks
about, and
18 that is the establishing of the Virovitica-Karlovac-Karlobag
border. I
19 know the accused does not like this, but these are the facts.
20 Q. There's nothing for me to dislike here. These are not facts but
21 your political opinions, Mr. Mesic, because you have failed to put
forward
22 a single fact here.
23 Along with a decision to collect the weapons from the Serb areas
24 in late July, you also made a decision to establish the National
Guard
25 Corps. This was a paramilitary formation. Is this correct or not?
Page 10704
1 A. I have to remind the accused that, on the one hand, there were
2 illegal paramilitary organisations and there were legal paramilitary
3 organisations. The police force is also a paramilitary organisation.
4 They have weapons, they have uniforms, and they have a chain of
command.
5 But they are not an army. Croatia adopted a decision that the
National
6 Guard Corps be established. Its purpose, in fact, was to be
something
7 like the gendarmes in France or the carabinieri in Italy. We wanted
to
8 have a unit which could be activated, in case of need, if the vital
9 interests of the Republic of Croatia were threatened. At that time,
this
10 was not yet the Croatian army.
11 Q. This decision of the Croatian government was to have been
12 implemented, first of all, in the area of Lika, where Serbs made up
93 per
13 cent of the population; is that correct or not?
14 A. Where did you get this 93 per cent? That's not true.
15 Q. Very well, then. The majority.
16 A. Well, 93 per cent and 51 per cent is a big difference. But as we
17 have heard, the accused no longer stands by the usual kind of
arithmetic.
18 Q. When the political and security situation deteriorated, did the
19 political leadership of the Serbs in Krajina decide to hold a
referendum
20 on autonomy? This was in late August 1990.
21 A. I have to respond again, although I have already answered a part
22 of this question: Weapons were collected on the entire territory of
the
23 Republic of Croatia, and the referendum was illegal, and Croatia
failed to
24 recognise it, did not recognise it, because it was an illegal
referendum,
25 and in Croatia law has to be respected.
Page 10705
1 Q. Is it correct that on the 16th and 17th of August, when the
police
2 set out toward Benkovac, where 10.000 Serbs had gathered, do you
think
3 that this move that you made had anything to do with the reactions
of the
4 Serbs and that it was not actually incited by the authorities of
Serbia?
5 You said Belgrade -- I mean, when you say "Belgrade," I assume
you're
6 referring to the federal organs of Yugoslavia, not to the leadership
of
7 the Republic of Serbia.
8 A. I'm referring to the accused and his regime and his links with
the
9 Yugoslav army.
10 Q. All right. We're going to get to that a bit later.
11 Did this have anything to do with the reaction of the Serbs, the
12 fact that the police set out to Benkovac, where 10.000 Serbs had
13 assembled? Is that correct or is that not correct?
14 A. The police did not set out against anyone. They could only
15 provide security at the rally.
16 Q. Oh, so they went there to guarantee their security.
17 A. Yes, by all means.
18 Q. Do you think that such wrong decisions of yours, to send police
to
19 places where people had rallies, in spite of the constitutional
right to
20 freedom of assembly, was a wrongful decision which made the Serbs
place
21 roadblocks; this was not part of a struggle for a greater Serbia?
22 A. During this trial I've answered that question too.
23 Q. All right, Mr. Mesic. After this Croatian government was
24 constituted, the one whose prime minister you were, wasn't it clear
that
25 at that time the activity of the organised arming of HDZ members
started?
Page 10706
1 Is that right or is that not right? Is that being contested too?
2 A. I was prime minister of Croatia for three months before I went to
3 Belgrade, and on the 17th of August, 1990, the log revolution
started.
4 Roads were blocked, roads that were of vital interest to the economy
of
5 Croatia. Croatia had to survive, both politically and economically.
Who
6 was it who was destroying Croatia then? Was it those who wanted to
7 establish free traffic on Croatian roads or those who were carrying
out
8 orders issued by the accused and provoking the Croatian authorities?
9 Q. All right. It just so happens that the accused at that time was
10 vacationing in Dubrovnik and heard about this from the newspapers
there.
11 But are you trying to say that logs are some kind of offensive
weapon, or
12 is it the police that enters settled areas and attacks people? Was
13 anybody ever attacked by a log?
14 A. Yes, logs are a very lethal weapon, because they do not allow
15 free communication in Croatia. They do not allow the economy to
16 function. This is a grave attack on the Croatian economy and the
Croatian
17 state. Before that, I would really like to hear where this
happened,
18 where the police attacked someone so the Croatian roads had to be
19 blocked. I would really like to hear that once and for all.
20 Q. I've given you countless examples - I've presented them here
21 anyway - during 1989 and 1990, many examples. I even quoted your
own
22 newspapers to you, about incursions, about arrests, about people
being
23 taken away and who are still missing. You know about that. Mr.
Mesic, do
24 you think that since at that time you were prime minister, you are
the
25 guiltiest person of all for clashes with the Serbs in Croatia?
Page 10707
1 A. Although this is nonsensical, I am going to dignify it with an
2 answer. They opted to provoke the Croatian authorities in order to
3 establish the boundary that I refer to. Specifically in Pakrac,
there was
4 a conflict between two streams in one police station.
5 Q. All right. You've already explained that.
6 JUDGE MAY: Let the witness finish.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] He's taking up my time. He spoke
8 about it yesterday.
9 JUDGE MAY: You've put serious allegations to him. He must be
10 able to answer them.
11 Yes. Go on, Mr. Mesic.
12 A. Since part of the police station was disarmed, the Minister of
the
13 Interior sent reinforcements in and disarmed the attackers. That
brought
14 an end to it all. However, the army came into the streets with 20
or 30
15 tanks, and they purportedly separated the conflicting parties.
There were
16 no conflicting parties. There were those who were attacking the
police
17 and there were those who were protecting the police. There were no
two
18 parties that were clashing. There was not an interethnic conflict
there.
19 Nobody was wounded. Nobody was killed. I came to Belgrade. Borislav
20 Jovic, the representative Serbian of the Presidency of Yugoslavia,
said
21 that there was a massacre of Serbs in Pakrac, where 40 persons were
22 massacred. I said, "Well, I was in Pakrac yesterday. Nobody was
wounded.
23 Where did you read that?" And he said, "In the Titograd daily
newspaper
24 of Pobjeda." Now, where is Titograd? Where is Pakrac? They have
nothing
25 to do with each other. But it is obvious that this is a scenario.
The
Page 10708
1 army was supposed to be brought into the picture to ensure the
boundaries
2 that not only General Kadijevic knows of very well but also this
accused,
3 Slobodan Milosevic.
4 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
5 Q. This accused doesn't, and I do not consider myself to be accused
6 by this false indictment. And since you behaved the way that you
behaved,
7 that you behaved in this broad-minded, democratic manner, how is it
8 then possible and why were you the protagonist of a programme that
Serbs
9 were supposed to be expelled from the constitution of Croatia as a
10 constituent and state-building people?
11 A. Croatia proclaimed its independence. It had its own
12 institutions, it had its own parliament, and it passed laws. I'm
not in a
13 position now to interpret why each and every law was passed and in
which
14 way and how the constitution was adopted. There is a procedure
involved.
15 I don't know in which case I would have to give answers now in
respect of
16 a decision that is reached by the parliament of my country.
17 Q. A parliament that you chaired. So you believe that you preserved
18 the status of the Serbs that they had according to all previous
19 constitutions. I mean, had you retained that status for them, that
they
20 still would have rebelled; is that your opinion?
21 A. Institutionally, no rights of Serbs or of any other ethnic group
22 were violated. I admit that there were some messages that were
23 unacceptable, but they had to be discussed at a table, not by
destroying
24 Dubrovnik, not by destroying Vukovar, Skabrnja, Vucine, not
Cetekovac, not
25 by massacring people. In that way, not a single conflict can be
resolved.
Page 10709
1 Q. Mr. Mesic, as a member of the Presidency, later on you even
2 compounded your responsibility for everything that happened to the
Serbs
3 in 1991 and 1992 and later on your responsibility as Croatia's -- as
the
4 president of Croatia's parliament, at the beginning of 2000, you
stated,
5 on television, that the Croats in 1995, through military actions,
that is
6 to say, through storm and flash, in the war for the homeland, that
they
7 won a glorious victory. Mr. Mesic, no doubt storm and flash are
actions
8 that meant carrying out war crimes and ethnic cleansing, ethnic
cleansing
9 of practically all Serbs from Croatia. Do you --
10 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, you know that this is not the time to
11 make speeches or try and give evidence, which you're trying to do.
Have
12 you got a question to ask the witness?
13 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
14 Q. Please, I do have a question. If these were glorious actions,
why
15 are you saying now that Bobetko should be held responsible if he
was doing
16 something glorious, in your words?
17 A. The victories in the homeland war were glorious because they
made
18 it possible for Croatia to reach each and every part of the
Croatian state
19 and to establish the functioning of the institutions of the
Croatian
20 state. In these battles, crimes may occur, as always. I am
advocating
21 the following: That everybody should be held accountable for what
he did.
22 Croatia adopted a constitutional law in cooperation with The Hague
23 Tribunal. I am advocating the following: That everybody should have
the
24 right to defence. All suspects should be held accountable before
The
25 Hague Tribunal. If these are Croatian citizens, then they should
have the
Page 10710
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12 Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and
13 English transcripts.
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Page 10711
1 right to defence, maximum defence, implying dignity and respect for
2 everything that everyone did by way of a contribution to the
independence
3 of Croatia. But I want each and every citizen to be equal before the
law
4 because it is only then that we can expect to realise our strategic
5 objectives and that is to become part of European and Atlantic
alliances,
6 which is truly our strategic objective.
7 Q. All right. It is my understanding that the expulsion of 250.000
8 Serbs from Krajina and taking tens of thousands of them out of
columns,
9 according to the findings of Commissioner Ema Bonino, and these
persons
10 went missing, simply that you are calling all of this individuals
crimes
11 and individual actions. The expulsion of 250.000 Serbs and the
12 destruction of thousands of persons who were in these columns. You
are
13 calling this individual crimes within this glorious --
14 JUDGE MAY: The witness has dealt with this, and it's not clear
15 what relevance this has to this particular indictment. These are
events
16 in 1995. Yes let's move on to something else.
17 MR. NICE: I'm concerned if there's to be the time limitation that
18 the Chamber has identified that the accused is simply not dealing
with the
19 matters on which evidence has been given, and typically in the last
20 question but two he slid over 1991 and 1992 with an allegation to
which
21 the witness was not allowed to give an answer, that being exactly
the time
22 of the Presidency, the Rump Presidency, and the other matters that
we
23 should be investigating.
24 JUDGE MAY: What was the question that you say he should have been
25 able to answer.
Page 10712
1 MR. NICE: Well, it was where he suggested -- I'll just find it
2 again. He simply suggested that he compounded everything by his
behaviour
3 in 1991 and 1992, without putting any particulars.
4 JUDGE MAY: I think the witness has dealt with that.
5 Mr. Nice, there is a question of time. We understood that the
6 witness could not be available tomorrow. Is that right?
7 MR. NICE: The way I expressed it was he was definitely available
8 yesterday and today and that he might be available for tomorrow. I
know
9 his original plans were to travel back tomorrow. But the Chamber
will of
10 course be in the witness's hands and he'll know better than I, I
not
11 having spoken to him yesterday, what his availability now is.
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Mesic, could you help us with this? You've heard
13 about this question of time. Are you available tomorrow at all in
the
14 morning or do you have to get back?
15 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I have some engagements tomorrow
16 afternoon, so I could be present in this courtroom for part of the
morning
17 tomorrow.
18 JUDGE MAY: Could you be here for an hour, say from 9.00 to 10.00?
19 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] Yes.
20 JUDGE MAY: Thank you.
21 Well, Mr. Milosevic, you can have until 2.00 today. You can
22 have --
23 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Very well.
24 JUDGE MAY: You can have a few minutes tomorrow in addition to
25 that, but there must be time for the other parties to cross-examine
and
* Continued at: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic-10.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two
organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in
his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this
phase of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of
racism, violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news
soon. These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM
secure server so you can contribute directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
ICDSM office, USA: 1 617 916-1705
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You can Contribute by mail to:
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