International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
www.icdsm.org
=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART IV
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the
whole thing at once go to:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10647
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Was that when Ante Markovic established his own party?
3 A. On the 27th of July, 1990, the Serb assembly passed its so-called
4 decision on Serb autonomy in Croatia. On the 1st of July, 1990 in
Kosovo
5 by Knin, an official statement was made that the Serb Autonomous
Krajina
6 was established in Croatia, its president being Milan Babic. On the
17th
7 of August, the first roadblocks were on the road in Benkovac, Knin
and
8 Gradacac. On the 13th of September, there were meetings and rallies
of
9 persons in Dvor and in various other places. In towns and in
10 municipalities in Croatia where there is a predominantly Serb
population,
11 there were inscriptions saying: "This is Serbia." So it is persons
who
12 came from Serbia who manipulated the Serb masses in Serbia? Why?
Because
13 Milosevic needed to bring about an insurgency of the Serbs in
Croatia so
14 that he would light the initial fuse for setting Bosnia-Herzegovina
on
15 fire, because he needed Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what the accused
16 actually did. That is why he should be held accountable. These
radical
17 statements, regrettably, are only in response to statements made by
the
18 accused.
19 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you see that you're not testifying about anything
20 here except your political and propaganda activities all this time?
21 Because you do not have a single fact here; you only have your own
22 positions and your attacks against Milosevic.
23 A. This is the trial of the accused Slobodan Milosevic. I have
24 sufficient facts in order to believe that he is guilty because he
planned
25 war, he carried out war, and he built into this plan a crime that
he
Page 10648
1 should be held accountable for.
2 Q. Very well.
3 JUDGE MAY: Let us get back to the subject-matter of the trial.
4 Yes. You are asking about the statements, Mr. Milosevic.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I put a question. I said: These laws and the atmosphere in
7 parliament, the atmosphere in Croatia, the dismissals of thousands
of
8 persons from the administration, from the police, from the media,
even
9 from the health sector, is that the kind of atmosphere that caused
concern
10 among the Serbs, or was it, as Mr. Mesic just put it now, was it
Milosevic
11 who caused concern and who led to this insurgency? Were these facts
of
12 life the thing that caused concern among them or did Milosevic come
from
13 Serbia to make them start a rebellion, now that I've quoted all of
this?
14 A. It wasn't the accused Milosevic who came. His emissaries came,
15 and they were the ones who started the insurgency in Croatia.
16 JUDGE MAY: Can you deal with the allegations which are made,
17 that, first of all, there were the dismissals of thousands of
persons from
18 the administration and the police and the media and the health
sector?
19 Now, can you deal with that, Mr. Mesic? Were thousands dismissed?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it is an exaggeration
21 to speak of thousands, but that there were dismissals is a fact.
There
22 were unnecessary dismissals. People also took those who dismissed
them to
23 court and won these cases. I think that these statements that are
radical
24 and inadmissible only work to Croatia's detriment, and I always
struggled
25 against that.
Page 10649
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. All right. So the atmosphere and the statements -- I mean, you
3 say now that it is negative, but the atmosphere was there, wasn't
it? So
4 it's not Milosevic who caused an insurgency among the Serbs; it is
your
5 laws, your pressures, your behaviour, your attacks against people.
Is
6 that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?
7 A. I have to reply once again, and I've already said this.
8 Q. If you've already said it, please don't read out what you've
9 already read out, please.
10 A. Those who wanted to cut off parts of Croatia, parts of the
11 Republic of Croatia, those are the ones who are to be blamed for
the
12 radical statements that were made.
13 Q. Well, look, somebody wanted to cut off parts of your territory.
14 Susanne Woodward from the Brooking Institution, an institution of
high
15 renown throughout the world, she says:
16 "Smashed stores fronts, fire bombs thrown and harassed and
17 arrested potential Serb leaders. In many parts of Croatia Serbs
were
18 expelled from jobs because of their nationality."
19 JUDGE MAY: You can call her to give evidence if you want. Yes.
20 Was there an atmosphere, Mr. Mesic, to cause the Serbs to have
21 fear at this time or is that not so?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an exaggeration to say that
23 there was an atmosphere of fear, but that there were improper and
24 inadmissible statements, that is a fact. Also there were dismissals
that
25 were wrong; however, people took those who dismissed them to court
and
Page 10650
1 they won those cases.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You mean those 100,000 Serbs who fled Croatia already in 1990,
4 they won these cases for their own jobs; is that what you're trying
to
5 say?
6 A. The accused is a lawyer, and he knows that only a person who is a
7 plaintiff can win a case.
8 Q. Well, we heard your own statements of a few minutes ago about
9 those murders, what kind of rule of law you had. We're going to hear
10 others later as well. I assume that you're not joking now when
you're
11 referring to --
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time has come to move on from this
13 sort of argument, which doesn't assist the Court.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Do you remember the statement made by the
16 famous artist Edo Murtic in Novi Liste [phoen], a daily from
Rijeka, made
17 in June 2000? I'm quoting him: "I remember how a few months prior
to the
18 elections in 1990" - he is referring to his conversation with
Tudjman -
19 "how he came to me quite delighted, believing that he would turn me
into
20 his Augustincic. He thought that we would now do what the Ustashas
and
21 Pavelic did not do in 1941. He said that he would send 250.000
Serbs
22 packing away and the remaining 250.000 would be killed." So these
are
23 your own newspapers. It's not a Belgrade newspaper. This is Edo
Murtic,
24 a famous artist, painter, a well-known intellectual. Do you
remember that
25 statement of his about this conversation before the elections in
1990?
Page 10651
1 And I quoted Susan Woodward a few minutes ago and she is referring
to the
2 atmosphere before 1990, before the elections.
3 JUDGE MAY: The witness can deal with the conversation by -- or
4 comments by the artist which has been referred to.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The artist Edo Murtic is a friend of
6 mine, by the way, but I do admit that I haven't read that particular
7 statement of his.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. All right. Tell me, please: I'm just going to briefly quote the
10 newspaper Feral Tribune on the 21st of April, 2001, autumn 2001,
there was
11 a hunt against the Serbs in 1991. It says: "Mercep's killers were
12 killing Serbs en masse in Pogracka [phoen], Puljane [phoen], they
were
13 taking people out of their homes in Zagreb and they were trying
them but
14 firing bullets into their heads. Norac Oreskovic and others applied
15 similar methods when dealing with the innocent Serbs of Gospic.
16 Spectacular Crystal Nights were organised in Zadar during which
tens of
17 houses were destroyed whose inhabitants had the wrong chromosomes."
18 Is that correct, Mr. Mesic? Is that what the Croatian newspaper
19 Feral Tribune said or did this Croatian newspaper lie when they
said that?
20 A. There were crimes, and I always asked for them to be
investigated
21 and the perpetrators to be punished. Croatia did not have
sufficient rule
22 of law, and after all, that is how I won the election, because I
have been
23 calling for true rule of law in Croatia. Crimes were committed and
24 perpetrators should be brought to justice. But that is no reason
for
25 destroying Dubrovnik, for destroying Vukovar, for destroying
Croatian
Page 10652
1 cities. Criminals should be prosecuted, but towns should not be
2 destroyed.
3 Q. Correct. Perpetrators should be prosecuted, perpetrators should
4 be tried, but the only question is: Who criminals were. Who were the
5 criminals? That's the only question. And criminals should certainly
be
6 prosecuted and brought to justice, certainly.
7 So that is the whole point. That is the inversion that was made,
8 Mr. Mesic; isn't that right? You are testifying here that I was the
one
9 who broke up Yugoslavia and you were in favour of Yugoslavia and any
child
10 in Yugoslavia knows --
11 A. I think that we can reach agreement on one thing very quickly
12 here. I am not the person on trial here.
13 Q. Well, that's the point.
14 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's time, Mr. Milosevic.
15 Half past. Twenty minutes.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm going to show you now that you weren't speaking the truth a
21 moment ago when we were discussing an issue and questions about the
people
22 who were fighting in Bosnia who were not volunteers. And when I
asked you
23 about your nephew, who was also in Bosnia, a Croatian soldier
there, and
24 he was not a volunteer. He was born in Slavonia so he was not from
Bosnia
25 either and had nothing to do with Bosnia, and you said that that
was not
Page 10653
1 true, not correct; isn't that so? Now take a look at your own
testimony
2 in a case - or rather, when you speak about this same subject, it is
page
3 7266 of the transcript - while you were testifying here in this same
4 building --
5 JUDGE MAY: This is, so we've got it, is this in -- not in
6 Dokmanovic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it isn't. It's in the other
8 case, the other trial, where Mr. Mesic was a protected witness. And
so I
9 wish to adhere to the rules, although the Slobodna Dalmacija paper
did
10 publicise this. I don't want to make explicit mention of it. And
11 Mr. Mesic, as we can see, is a witness, has been a witness in many
cases,
12 a witness for the Prosecution, which also demonstrates this
inversion.
13 JUDGE MAY: No. That's just --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That I was talking about. All
15 right. But this is what it says here. May I read it out?
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. And I'm reading out your own transcript, not mine, when you're
18 talking about whether they were in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He says the
19 following: "Whether there were any, I cannot tell [In English] I
was not
20 an inspector, nor was it up to me to establish it. But my nephew
Vlatko
21 Mesic, who was a Croat soldier, he was in Bosnia. He came back from
there
22 and he was not a volunteer in Bosnia. He was born in Slavonia. He
has
23 nothing in common with Bosnia, but he was there."
24 Therefore, you told an untruth a moment ago. You even said that
25 your nephews were too young, whereas here in this transcript from
your
Page 10654
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10655
1 testimony which was given under oath, you are saying something quite
2 different, in fact. Is that right, Mr. Mesic, or is it not?
3 A. My two nephews live in France, and two of them live in Belgrade.
4 And during the war, they were minors. It is a relation of mine, a
distant
5 cousin. The interpretation of that was probably erroneous. Who said
6 that -- who told me he was in Bosnia. That is what he told me and
that is
7 what I said.
8 Q. Very well.
9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I -- I didn't want to interrupt that
10 last exchange, given that it had started, but any further reference
to
11 protected testimony should itself be given in private session.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see why this should be given
14 in private session, Mr. May, when I am making no mention here of --
15 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what it refers to, actually.
17 JUDGE MAY: Those are the Rules. Any reference to private-session
18 matters should be in private session. Yes, let's go on.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see that I have infringed
20 upon your procedure in any way by having brought that up.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. When you were asked by a representative of the accused, did you
as
23 a speaker take any steps for this matter to be investigated?
Because of
24 course [In English] It is the assembly's responsibility regarding
the use
25 of the army outside its border. Did you form a commission? Did you
put
Page 10656
1 this issue on agenda --
2 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't, please. I don't want to
4 waste time. I won't carry on with that.
5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So when weren't you speaking the truth, Mr. Mesic: Now or then,
8 when you made that statement which was under oath again?
9 JUDGE MAY: He's given his explanation. If there's anything you
10 want to add, Mr. Mesic, you can.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The direct question was whether my
12 nephew was there, and I said no. A relative, a relation of mine,
was,
13 which means that individuals were there who were not born in
Bosnia. But
14 apart from that one individual that I did know, I wasn't able to
ascertain
15 who was there.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Now, whether you say nephew or relative or distant cousin or
18 whatever I read out here, that's what it said, so there can be no
dilemmas
19 there or confusion. Let's move on.
20 Is it true that in your presence Tudjman said that at the end of
21 the war there would be 5 per cent of Serbs in Croatia, by the end
of the
22 war?
23 A. Yes, that is what he said. He said that was his assumption.
24 Q. Is it also true that he said that Tudjman thought that the 1938
25 solution for Croatia was the best one when it was the banovina of
Croatia?
Page 10657
1 A. No. It was Tudjman's position that as Vojvodina had been attached
2 to Serbia, and it was never under Serbia, even during World War II,
3 Vojvodina was under the main staff and headquarters of Croatia
because
4 Serbia did not have one. And he therefore considered that Avnoj, the
5 anti-fascist World War II council had made a mistake when to
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a historical Croatian province had not been
7 envisioned as autonomous province within Croatia. So that position
was
8 one that he always stood by, and he considered that
Bosnia-Herzegovina had
9 to be a whole, a whole entity, and that it must be within the
frameworks
10 of Croatia. But Avnoj, the anti-fascist council, did not take that
into
11 account. However, in the electoral campaign, he stated the facts
and said
12 that Croatia represented an oblong role with one section cut off.
But in
13 that way, he did not move any proceedings to put that right and to
ask for
14 alien territory to be attached to Croatia. After he returned from
15 Karadjordjevo, he said that Croatia was to receive the banovina
borders
16 plus Cazin and Bihac, Kladusa, and he said, as Milosevic had told
him, he
17 said: "Listen, Franjo." That's what he said. You take Cazin,
Kladusa and
18 Bihac. I don't need that. That is what we refer to as Turkish
Croatia.
19 That's what he told us. Now, whether that was what actually took
place,
20 the accused knows that better himself.
21 Q. Well, of course there was no discussion about carving up Bosnia.
22 We have already had that discussion here. But your explanations are
23 becoming relevant for you. So to recap: You weren't telling the
truth
24 with respect to the presence in Bosnia, and later on I am going to
call
25 evidence --
* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-5.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of
Slobodan
Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to
help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated
legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining
Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the
defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from Yugoslavia
and
the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
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the
ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the
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require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of Yugoslav
lawyers in Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We
need to expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a
non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we
have an
office and office manager available at all times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base
for organizing press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
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=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART IV
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the
whole thing at once go to:
http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10647
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. Was that when Ante Markovic established his own party?
3 A. On the 27th of July, 1990, the Serb assembly passed its so-called
4 decision on Serb autonomy in Croatia. On the 1st of July, 1990 in
Kosovo
5 by Knin, an official statement was made that the Serb Autonomous
Krajina
6 was established in Croatia, its president being Milan Babic. On the
17th
7 of August, the first roadblocks were on the road in Benkovac, Knin
and
8 Gradacac. On the 13th of September, there were meetings and rallies
of
9 persons in Dvor and in various other places. In towns and in
10 municipalities in Croatia where there is a predominantly Serb
population,
11 there were inscriptions saying: "This is Serbia." So it is persons
who
12 came from Serbia who manipulated the Serb masses in Serbia? Why?
Because
13 Milosevic needed to bring about an insurgency of the Serbs in
Croatia so
14 that he would light the initial fuse for setting Bosnia-Herzegovina
on
15 fire, because he needed Bosnia-Herzegovina. That's what the accused
16 actually did. That is why he should be held accountable. These
radical
17 statements, regrettably, are only in response to statements made by
the
18 accused.
19 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you see that you're not testifying about anything
20 here except your political and propaganda activities all this time?
21 Because you do not have a single fact here; you only have your own
22 positions and your attacks against Milosevic.
23 A. This is the trial of the accused Slobodan Milosevic. I have
24 sufficient facts in order to believe that he is guilty because he
planned
25 war, he carried out war, and he built into this plan a crime that
he
Page 10648
1 should be held accountable for.
2 Q. Very well.
3 JUDGE MAY: Let us get back to the subject-matter of the trial.
4 Yes. You are asking about the statements, Mr. Milosevic.
5 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
6 Q. I put a question. I said: These laws and the atmosphere in
7 parliament, the atmosphere in Croatia, the dismissals of thousands
of
8 persons from the administration, from the police, from the media,
even
9 from the health sector, is that the kind of atmosphere that caused
concern
10 among the Serbs, or was it, as Mr. Mesic just put it now, was it
Milosevic
11 who caused concern and who led to this insurgency? Were these facts
of
12 life the thing that caused concern among them or did Milosevic come
from
13 Serbia to make them start a rebellion, now that I've quoted all of
this?
14 A. It wasn't the accused Milosevic who came. His emissaries came,
15 and they were the ones who started the insurgency in Croatia.
16 JUDGE MAY: Can you deal with the allegations which are made,
17 that, first of all, there were the dismissals of thousands of
persons from
18 the administration and the police and the media and the health
sector?
19 Now, can you deal with that, Mr. Mesic? Were thousands dismissed?
20 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] I think that it is an exaggeration
21 to speak of thousands, but that there were dismissals is a fact.
There
22 were unnecessary dismissals. People also took those who dismissed
them to
23 court and won these cases. I think that these statements that are
radical
24 and inadmissible only work to Croatia's detriment, and I always
struggled
25 against that.
Page 10649
1 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
2 Q. All right. So the atmosphere and the statements -- I mean, you
3 say now that it is negative, but the atmosphere was there, wasn't
it? So
4 it's not Milosevic who caused an insurgency among the Serbs; it is
your
5 laws, your pressures, your behaviour, your attacks against people.
Is
6 that right or is that not right, Mr. Mesic?
7 A. I have to reply once again, and I've already said this.
8 Q. If you've already said it, please don't read out what you've
9 already read out, please.
10 A. Those who wanted to cut off parts of Croatia, parts of the
11 Republic of Croatia, those are the ones who are to be blamed for
the
12 radical statements that were made.
13 Q. Well, look, somebody wanted to cut off parts of your territory.
14 Susanne Woodward from the Brooking Institution, an institution of
high
15 renown throughout the world, she says:
16 "Smashed stores fronts, fire bombs thrown and harassed and
17 arrested potential Serb leaders. In many parts of Croatia Serbs
were
18 expelled from jobs because of their nationality."
19 JUDGE MAY: You can call her to give evidence if you want. Yes.
20 Was there an atmosphere, Mr. Mesic, to cause the Serbs to have
21 fear at this time or is that not so?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] It is an exaggeration to say that
23 there was an atmosphere of fear, but that there were improper and
24 inadmissible statements, that is a fact. Also there were dismissals
that
25 were wrong; however, people took those who dismissed them to court
and
Page 10650
1 they won those cases.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. You mean those 100,000 Serbs who fled Croatia already in 1990,
4 they won these cases for their own jobs; is that what you're trying
to
5 say?
6 A. The accused is a lawyer, and he knows that only a person who is a
7 plaintiff can win a case.
8 Q. Well, we heard your own statements of a few minutes ago about
9 those murders, what kind of rule of law you had. We're going to hear
10 others later as well. I assume that you're not joking now when
you're
11 referring to --
12 JUDGE MAY: Mr. Milosevic, the time has come to move on from this
13 sort of argument, which doesn't assist the Court.
14 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
15 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Do you remember the statement made by the
16 famous artist Edo Murtic in Novi Liste [phoen], a daily from
Rijeka, made
17 in June 2000? I'm quoting him: "I remember how a few months prior
to the
18 elections in 1990" - he is referring to his conversation with
Tudjman -
19 "how he came to me quite delighted, believing that he would turn me
into
20 his Augustincic. He thought that we would now do what the Ustashas
and
21 Pavelic did not do in 1941. He said that he would send 250.000
Serbs
22 packing away and the remaining 250.000 would be killed." So these
are
23 your own newspapers. It's not a Belgrade newspaper. This is Edo
Murtic,
24 a famous artist, painter, a well-known intellectual. Do you
remember that
25 statement of his about this conversation before the elections in
1990?
Page 10651
1 And I quoted Susan Woodward a few minutes ago and she is referring
to the
2 atmosphere before 1990, before the elections.
3 JUDGE MAY: The witness can deal with the conversation by -- or
4 comments by the artist which has been referred to.
5 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The artist Edo Murtic is a friend of
6 mine, by the way, but I do admit that I haven't read that particular
7 statement of his.
8 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
9 Q. All right. Tell me, please: I'm just going to briefly quote the
10 newspaper Feral Tribune on the 21st of April, 2001, autumn 2001,
there was
11 a hunt against the Serbs in 1991. It says: "Mercep's killers were
12 killing Serbs en masse in Pogracka [phoen], Puljane [phoen], they
were
13 taking people out of their homes in Zagreb and they were trying
them but
14 firing bullets into their heads. Norac Oreskovic and others applied
15 similar methods when dealing with the innocent Serbs of Gospic.
16 Spectacular Crystal Nights were organised in Zadar during which
tens of
17 houses were destroyed whose inhabitants had the wrong chromosomes."
18 Is that correct, Mr. Mesic? Is that what the Croatian newspaper
19 Feral Tribune said or did this Croatian newspaper lie when they
said that?
20 A. There were crimes, and I always asked for them to be
investigated
21 and the perpetrators to be punished. Croatia did not have
sufficient rule
22 of law, and after all, that is how I won the election, because I
have been
23 calling for true rule of law in Croatia. Crimes were committed and
24 perpetrators should be brought to justice. But that is no reason
for
25 destroying Dubrovnik, for destroying Vukovar, for destroying
Croatian
Page 10652
1 cities. Criminals should be prosecuted, but towns should not be
2 destroyed.
3 Q. Correct. Perpetrators should be prosecuted, perpetrators should
4 be tried, but the only question is: Who criminals were. Who were the
5 criminals? That's the only question. And criminals should certainly
be
6 prosecuted and brought to justice, certainly.
7 So that is the whole point. That is the inversion that was made,
8 Mr. Mesic; isn't that right? You are testifying here that I was the
one
9 who broke up Yugoslavia and you were in favour of Yugoslavia and any
child
10 in Yugoslavia knows --
11 A. I think that we can reach agreement on one thing very quickly
12 here. I am not the person on trial here.
13 Q. Well, that's the point.
14 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's time, Mr. Milosevic.
15 Half past. Twenty minutes.
16 --- Recess taken at 10.29 a.m.
17 --- On resuming at 10.54 a.m.
18 JUDGE MAY: Yes, Mr. Milosevic.
19 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
20 Q. I'm going to show you now that you weren't speaking the truth a
21 moment ago when we were discussing an issue and questions about the
people
22 who were fighting in Bosnia who were not volunteers. And when I
asked you
23 about your nephew, who was also in Bosnia, a Croatian soldier
there, and
24 he was not a volunteer. He was born in Slavonia so he was not from
Bosnia
25 either and had nothing to do with Bosnia, and you said that that
was not
Page 10653
1 true, not correct; isn't that so? Now take a look at your own
testimony
2 in a case - or rather, when you speak about this same subject, it is
page
3 7266 of the transcript - while you were testifying here in this same
4 building --
5 JUDGE MAY: This is, so we've got it, is this in -- not in
6 Dokmanovic?
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] No, it isn't. It's in the other
8 case, the other trial, where Mr. Mesic was a protected witness. And
so I
9 wish to adhere to the rules, although the Slobodna Dalmacija paper
did
10 publicise this. I don't want to make explicit mention of it. And
11 Mr. Mesic, as we can see, is a witness, has been a witness in many
cases,
12 a witness for the Prosecution, which also demonstrates this
inversion.
13 JUDGE MAY: No. That's just --
14 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] That I was talking about. All
15 right. But this is what it says here. May I read it out?
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. And I'm reading out your own transcript, not mine, when you're
18 talking about whether they were in Bosnia-Herzegovina. He says the
19 following: "Whether there were any, I cannot tell [In English] I
was not
20 an inspector, nor was it up to me to establish it. But my nephew
Vlatko
21 Mesic, who was a Croat soldier, he was in Bosnia. He came back from
there
22 and he was not a volunteer in Bosnia. He was born in Slavonia. He
has
23 nothing in common with Bosnia, but he was there."
24 Therefore, you told an untruth a moment ago. You even said that
25 your nephews were too young, whereas here in this transcript from
your
Page 10654
Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the
French and English transcripts.
Page 10655
1 testimony which was given under oath, you are saying something quite
2 different, in fact. Is that right, Mr. Mesic, or is it not?
3 A. My two nephews live in France, and two of them live in Belgrade.
4 And during the war, they were minors. It is a relation of mine, a
distant
5 cousin. The interpretation of that was probably erroneous. Who said
6 that -- who told me he was in Bosnia. That is what he told me and
that is
7 what I said.
8 Q. Very well.
9 MR. NICE: Your Honour, can I -- I didn't want to interrupt that
10 last exchange, given that it had started, but any further reference
to
11 protected testimony should itself be given in private session.
12 JUDGE MAY: Yes. Very well.
13 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see why this should be given
14 in private session, Mr. May, when I am making no mention here of --
15 JUDGE MAY: It doesn't matter.
16 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] -- what it refers to, actually.
17 JUDGE MAY: Those are the Rules. Any reference to private-session
18 matters should be in private session. Yes, let's go on.
19 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I don't see that I have infringed
20 upon your procedure in any way by having brought that up.
21 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
22 Q. When you were asked by a representative of the accused, did you
as
23 a speaker take any steps for this matter to be investigated?
Because of
24 course [In English] It is the assembly's responsibility regarding
the use
25 of the army outside its border. Did you form a commission? Did you
put
Page 10656
1 this issue on agenda --
2 JUDGE MAY: We'll go into private session.
3 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] Don't, please. I don't want to
4 waste time. I won't carry on with that.
5 JUDGE MAY: Very well.
6 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
7 Q. So when weren't you speaking the truth, Mr. Mesic: Now or then,
8 when you made that statement which was under oath again?
9 JUDGE MAY: He's given his explanation. If there's anything you
10 want to add, Mr. Mesic, you can.
11 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] The direct question was whether my
12 nephew was there, and I said no. A relative, a relation of mine,
was,
13 which means that individuals were there who were not born in
Bosnia. But
14 apart from that one individual that I did know, I wasn't able to
ascertain
15 who was there.
16 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
17 Q. Now, whether you say nephew or relative or distant cousin or
18 whatever I read out here, that's what it said, so there can be no
dilemmas
19 there or confusion. Let's move on.
20 Is it true that in your presence Tudjman said that at the end of
21 the war there would be 5 per cent of Serbs in Croatia, by the end
of the
22 war?
23 A. Yes, that is what he said. He said that was his assumption.
24 Q. Is it also true that he said that Tudjman thought that the 1938
25 solution for Croatia was the best one when it was the banovina of
Croatia?
Page 10657
1 A. No. It was Tudjman's position that as Vojvodina had been attached
2 to Serbia, and it was never under Serbia, even during World War II,
3 Vojvodina was under the main staff and headquarters of Croatia
because
4 Serbia did not have one. And he therefore considered that Avnoj, the
5 anti-fascist World War II council had made a mistake when to
6 Bosnia-Herzegovina as a historical Croatian province had not been
7 envisioned as autonomous province within Croatia. So that position
was
8 one that he always stood by, and he considered that
Bosnia-Herzegovina had
9 to be a whole, a whole entity, and that it must be within the
frameworks
10 of Croatia. But Avnoj, the anti-fascist council, did not take that
into
11 account. However, in the electoral campaign, he stated the facts
and said
12 that Croatia represented an oblong role with one section cut off.
But in
13 that way, he did not move any proceedings to put that right and to
ask for
14 alien territory to be attached to Croatia. After he returned from
15 Karadjordjevo, he said that Croatia was to receive the banovina
borders
16 plus Cazin and Bihac, Kladusa, and he said, as Milosevic had told
him, he
17 said: "Listen, Franjo." That's what he said. You take Cazin,
Kladusa and
18 Bihac. I don't need that. That is what we refer to as Turkish
Croatia.
19 That's what he told us. Now, whether that was what actually took
place,
20 the accused knows that better himself.
21 Q. Well, of course there was no discussion about carving up Bosnia.
22 We have already had that discussion here. But your explanations are
23 becoming relevant for you. So to recap: You weren't telling the
truth
24 with respect to the presence in Bosnia, and later on I am going to
call
25 evidence --
* Continued at: http://www.icdsm.org/more/mesic-5.htm
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two organizations formed at the request of
Slobodan
Milosevic to aid in his defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to
help President Milosevic expose NATO's lies. And we have initiated
legal action in the Dutch and European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining
Hague witnesses. The prosecution will be forced further onto the
defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and experts from Yugoslavia
and
the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried to suppress Mr. Milosevic's
cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase of the "trial" will be the
biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is
happening in The Hague. Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in
the
ICDSM, is waging legal battles in the Dutch courts and before the
European Court, about which more news soon. These efforts urgently
require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of Yugoslav
lawyers in Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We
need to expand our Dutch facilities, perhaps bringing in a
non-Yugoslav attorney full-time. Definitely we must guarantee that we
have an
office and office manager available at all times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base
for organizing press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM secure server so you can contribute directly on the
Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
ICDSM office, USA: 1 617 916-1705
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