Informazione
* Another side of Srebrenica *
from: Radio Nederlands, 29/11/2002
---
Come documentazione precedente si veda / As previous documentation see:
http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/crj-mailinglist/message/1747
Was there a massacre in Srebrenica? What really happened and why?
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/list-s.htm
Altri link / More links:
Was the Srebrenica 'Massacre' a Hoax? (by R. Grémaux & A. de Vries)
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/falsely.htm
Srebrenica (by Carlos Martins Branco)
http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/bos/boss/boss07.shtml
Srebrenica, a small town in Yugoslavia: 5 years on and the lies
continue.
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/texts2.htm
A journey through evidence and documents (two years after)
http://www.serbianlinks.freehosting.net/srebrenica.html
---------- Initial Header -----------
From : Rick Rozoff
Date : Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:14:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject : [yugoslaviainfo] FRI: Another Side Of Srebrenica
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/bos021129.html
Radio Netherlands
November 29, 2002
Another side of Srebrenica
by David Jan Godfroid
Serbian cousins Aco and Darko are butchering pigs for
winter in the village of Fakovici, along the banks of
the River Drina in Eastern Bosnia. The two cousins are
the men of the house; ten years ago, when they were
still kids, their fathers were killed by Muslims from
Srebrenica. The attack happened near this very spot.
The drama of Srebrenica, one of the darkest chapters
of the Bosnian civil war, is a story often told in
simple terms. Bosnian Serb troops surround the town,
isolate it for years, then finally capture it and
slaughter 7000 men and boys, mainly Muslims. But the
reality is far more complex.
There was a lot of violence here before the siege of
Srebrenica began. Serbs attacked Muslim villages in
the surroundings, torched the houses and killed the
villagers. And Muslims did the same. From September
1992 until January 1993, dozens of Serbian villages
fell prey to Muslim sorties from Srebrenica. Hundreds
of Serbs, mainly civilians, were killed.
Destructive raiders
The village of Skelani nestles in the mountains on the
eastern border of Bosnia. During the war, a Muslim
army unit from Srebrenica often raided the Serbian
villages in this area, under the command of Naser
Oric. After ten years, you can still see the results.
Birches grow out of a demolished house. Down the road,
there's a group of partly destroyed houses; three of
them are abandoned, two others are inhabited again,
but only the ground floor has been provisionally repaired.
Naser Oric was the local commander of the Bosnian
Muslim army in Srebrenica. Just the mention of his
name causes outrage among Serbs in this region. A man
who goes by the pseudonym of Petar Jovanovic remembers
Oric from the days when they both worked on the
Srebrenica police force.
"Oric came to Srebrenica on orders to organise a
Muslim army and prepare them for war. He knew nothing
about religion. Oric told me this himself. He was
willing to fight for whoever made him the best offer.
He was 25 or 26 years old and he wanted only three
things: money, fancy cars and women."
Memories of death
In the village of Fakovici, Aco and Darko don't feel
like talking about the attack ten years ago, but they
think about the deaths of their fathers and other
relatives every day. They still live in the house
where the slaughter occurred. "Look," says Aco,
"That's where we found grandfather . . . his hands
were tied and his skull was crushed."
Sitting on the very spot where that man was killed is
Mica, one of the few defenders of Fakovici. Mica, who
himself was injured in the assault, is still furious
with his own people:
"If only one person had tried to defend our villages,
the Muslims would never have attacked us. We had
enough arms and men at our disposal, but one
paramilitary group after another came to tell us that
we were under their command. And when the Muslims
finally attacked, our commanders were across the
border in Serbia, and our defenders went picking
walnuts in the forest or fishing, three kilometres up
the river Drina. We had less than 15 men to defend the
village against over 200 attackers. It was one big
confusion."
Animal response
Twenty-four people were killed in Fakovici, including
Darko's parents and Aco's father and grandfather. Mica
is one of the few Serbs who think Muslims are not to
blame.
"First we chased them out of their villages. And a man
who has been forced to leave his house and live in the
forest becomes an animal. They had no choice but to
respond. First they were chased away, then they
organized themselves and they attacked. Of course."
From the graveyard of Bajina Basta, just across the
River Drina in Serbia, you can see the mountains of
Bosnia, where the war started ten years ago. Many of
those who died in those mountains in 1992-93 lie
buried here in a Serbian grave.
There are dozens of them. All of the victims are from
the villages across the river. Fakovici, Skelani...
small villages, often no more then a couple of houses.
The civilians who lived in such places were killed by
the attackers from Srebrenica.
Hari has just visited the grave of a good friend. He
looks at the other side of the river Drina, his eyes
filled with tears.
"It hurts, because I know how many young people lost
their lives there. You can rebuild a house or a
village. You can replant fields and orchards. But a
lost life, a young life . . . that hurts most."
from: Radio Nederlands, 29/11/2002
---
Come documentazione precedente si veda / As previous documentation see:
http://it.groups.yahoo.com/group/crj-mailinglist/message/1747
Was there a massacre in Srebrenica? What really happened and why?
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/list-s.htm
Altri link / More links:
Was the Srebrenica 'Massacre' a Hoax? (by R. Grémaux & A. de Vries)
http://emperors-clothes.com/analysis/falsely.htm
Srebrenica (by Carlos Martins Branco)
http://www.balkanpeace.org/cib/bos/boss/boss07.shtml
Srebrenica, a small town in Yugoslavia: 5 years on and the lies
continue.
http://emperors-clothes.com/articles/jared/texts2.htm
A journey through evidence and documents (two years after)
http://www.serbianlinks.freehosting.net/srebrenica.html
---------- Initial Header -----------
From : Rick Rozoff
Date : Tue, 3 Dec 2002 02:14:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject : [yugoslaviainfo] FRI: Another Side Of Srebrenica
http://www.rnw.nl/hotspots/html/bos021129.html
Radio Netherlands
November 29, 2002
Another side of Srebrenica
by David Jan Godfroid
Serbian cousins Aco and Darko are butchering pigs for
winter in the village of Fakovici, along the banks of
the River Drina in Eastern Bosnia. The two cousins are
the men of the house; ten years ago, when they were
still kids, their fathers were killed by Muslims from
Srebrenica. The attack happened near this very spot.
The drama of Srebrenica, one of the darkest chapters
of the Bosnian civil war, is a story often told in
simple terms. Bosnian Serb troops surround the town,
isolate it for years, then finally capture it and
slaughter 7000 men and boys, mainly Muslims. But the
reality is far more complex.
There was a lot of violence here before the siege of
Srebrenica began. Serbs attacked Muslim villages in
the surroundings, torched the houses and killed the
villagers. And Muslims did the same. From September
1992 until January 1993, dozens of Serbian villages
fell prey to Muslim sorties from Srebrenica. Hundreds
of Serbs, mainly civilians, were killed.
Destructive raiders
The village of Skelani nestles in the mountains on the
eastern border of Bosnia. During the war, a Muslim
army unit from Srebrenica often raided the Serbian
villages in this area, under the command of Naser
Oric. After ten years, you can still see the results.
Birches grow out of a demolished house. Down the road,
there's a group of partly destroyed houses; three of
them are abandoned, two others are inhabited again,
but only the ground floor has been provisionally repaired.
Naser Oric was the local commander of the Bosnian
Muslim army in Srebrenica. Just the mention of his
name causes outrage among Serbs in this region. A man
who goes by the pseudonym of Petar Jovanovic remembers
Oric from the days when they both worked on the
Srebrenica police force.
"Oric came to Srebrenica on orders to organise a
Muslim army and prepare them for war. He knew nothing
about religion. Oric told me this himself. He was
willing to fight for whoever made him the best offer.
He was 25 or 26 years old and he wanted only three
things: money, fancy cars and women."
Memories of death
In the village of Fakovici, Aco and Darko don't feel
like talking about the attack ten years ago, but they
think about the deaths of their fathers and other
relatives every day. They still live in the house
where the slaughter occurred. "Look," says Aco,
"That's where we found grandfather . . . his hands
were tied and his skull was crushed."
Sitting on the very spot where that man was killed is
Mica, one of the few defenders of Fakovici. Mica, who
himself was injured in the assault, is still furious
with his own people:
"If only one person had tried to defend our villages,
the Muslims would never have attacked us. We had
enough arms and men at our disposal, but one
paramilitary group after another came to tell us that
we were under their command. And when the Muslims
finally attacked, our commanders were across the
border in Serbia, and our defenders went picking
walnuts in the forest or fishing, three kilometres up
the river Drina. We had less than 15 men to defend the
village against over 200 attackers. It was one big
confusion."
Animal response
Twenty-four people were killed in Fakovici, including
Darko's parents and Aco's father and grandfather. Mica
is one of the few Serbs who think Muslims are not to
blame.
"First we chased them out of their villages. And a man
who has been forced to leave his house and live in the
forest becomes an animal. They had no choice but to
respond. First they were chased away, then they
organized themselves and they attacked. Of course."
From the graveyard of Bajina Basta, just across the
River Drina in Serbia, you can see the mountains of
Bosnia, where the war started ten years ago. Many of
those who died in those mountains in 1992-93 lie
buried here in a Serbian grave.
There are dozens of them. All of the victims are from
the villages across the river. Fakovici, Skelani...
small villages, often no more then a couple of houses.
The civilians who lived in such places were killed by
the attackers from Srebrenica.
Hari has just visited the grave of a good friend. He
looks at the other side of the river Drina, his eyes
filled with tears.
"It hurts, because I know how many young people lost
their lives there. You can rebuild a house or a
village. You can replant fields and orchards. But a
lost life, a young life . . . that hurts most."
International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic
emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
Subscribe to the ICDSM email list at
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Receive articles posted at emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
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=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART XII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10735
1 You've got another five minutes. Do you want to ask some more
2 questions, Mr. Milosevic, this afternoon, or are you finished for the
day?
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Were your claim correct, what sort of
5 obligation would the army have to obey me had I ordered the army, the
then
6 JNA, to do something? Why would they have had to obey me? How could I
7 have issued them with orders?
8 A. Formally they were under no obligation. That's precisely the
9 point. You issued orders to that army, and when I asked General
Kadijevic
10 why he was obeying only you, he said: Everybody else in Serbia is
even
11 worse. You should discuss this with General Kadijevic.
12 Q. As far as I know, you asked him why he was communicating with me
13 at all, not why he was obeying me. Because, as you know, that is
untrue.
14 A. General Kadijevic, as the Secretary of National Defence, never,
15 throughout my term of office in Belgrade, came to see me. Just recall
how
16 many times you talked to him.
17 Q. Less than you, I assume as his supreme commander.
18 A. You're making me laugh again. This is no place for us to laugh.
19 Q. On page 17 of your statement, you say that the Rump Presidency
20 implemented a putsch, a coup d'etat. Was this a Rump Presidency
because
21 you obstructed its functioning and those who followed you in your
22 obstruction, or was it a Rump Presidency because those who continued
to
23 attend the sessions were continuing to fulfil their obligations? Was
it a
24 Rump Presidency because you left it or because they remained at their
25 posts performing their duty? Is there any logic in this, Mr. Mesic?
Page 10736
1 A. The Rump Presidency could not be established by any legal and
2 legitimate means, by any extensive interpretations of the
constitution.
3 This was an illegal group of people which introduced a state of
emergency,
4 at the suggestion of Slobodan Milosevic, because he was the only one
who
5 had any influence over those people and over that Rump Presidency. And
6 let me give you a piece of information. My advisor remained in
Belgrade.
7 The room, the premises where the Presidency and later the Rump
Presidency
8 had its sessions had a connecting door leading to my former cabinet.
My
9 advisor listened to what they were talking about. He came to Croatia
by
10 way of Hungary and reported to me, so that I knew what the Rump
Presidency
11 was discussing. Slobodan Milosevic asked that Vukovar be left alone
and
12 that the army go to Zagreb. And General Kadijevic said that this was
13 impossible because the Croats had gained in military strength to such
an
14 extent that they would attack his flanks and he would not be able to
reach
15 Zagreb. So the opinion prevailed in the end that Vukovar had to be
16 destroyed. This is my interpretation now, but it was the accused who
17 asked that Zagreb be attacked. The witness to this is my advisor who
told
18 me this.
19 JUDGE MAY: Let's follow this. When were you told that there had
20 been this discussion about Vukovar, Mr. Mesic? What sort of date are
we
21 dealing with?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the time when I was not
23 going to Belgrade, when there were frequent army attacks from Novi
Sad and
24 Belgrade against Vukovar, and my advisor was still in Belgrade. He
was in
25 Belgrade until Vukovar fell. And he used to come to see me by way of
Page 10737
1 Hungary, via Hungary.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that the presidents of the republics at the
4 session of the Presidency, that they arrived only rarely and by
5 invitation, and that except on those rare occasions when all the other
6 presidents of the republics were present, I never took part in any
7 sessions of the Presidency? How can you put forward such fabrications,
8 such falsehoods? You should know that. And you say this was put to you
9 by your advisor --
10 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested, Mr. Mesic, that this is not true.
11 Perhaps you could answer that and then we'll adjourn.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I have to say that the accused
13 is now speculating. These are not sessions of the Presidency of the
SFRY,
14 because I know very well how any session chaired by me was convocated
[As
15 interpreted]. I'm speaking about sessions of the Rump Presidency. Who
16 they invited and how, I don't know. I only know what my advisor told
me.
17 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's 2.00. Tomorrow
18 morning -- you can go on tomorrow morning about this.
19 JUDGE KWON: Before we adjourn and before too late, I'd like to
20 suggest the registrar to exhibit Mr. Mesic's transcript the in
Dokmanovic,
21 which we didn't.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I believe it was marked Exhibit 329.
23 JUDGE KWON: Those are exhibits.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I will look into that.
25 MR. NICE: I think the position is that part of the transcript was
Page 10738
1 marked on its side as exhibited pursuant to the 92 bis package and the
2 other part wasn't. So there might be grounds for simply taking the
whole
3 Dokmanovic transcript and exhibiting it as His Honour Judge Kwon
proposes.
4 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. First of all, we'll deal with the
5 exhibit number. Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution's Exhibit 331.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked that the other transcript,
8 which contains a more extensive testimony by Mr. Mesic, also be
tendered
9 into evidence. I will not say what the case is, because he was a
10 protected witness in that case.
11 JUDGE MAY: We haven't seen that. Is there any objection to that
12 being done?
13 MR. NICE: Can I think about that over night. One of my problems
14 is is that in two cases the page references of the accused don't
match the
15 transcript I have and I haven't been able to find the references he
made.
16 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that overnight. Meanwhile, I would
17 remind everybody that we are sitting tomorrow from 9.00 in the
morning
18 until half past 4.00, 4.00 to half past tomorrow, 4.00 or half past
19 tomorrow.
20 Mr. Mesic, would you be back, please, for the first session
21 tomorrow. Thank you. 9.00 tomorrow.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.04 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of
24 October 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
25
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two
organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his
defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase
of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is happening
in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news soon.
These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM
secure server so you can contribute directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
ICDSM office, USA: 1 617 916-1705
SLOBODA (Freedom) Association office, Belgrade: 381 63 279 819
You can Contribute using PayPal at:
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PayPal accepts VISA and MasterCard
You can Contribute by mail to:
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Newton Centre, MA 02459 (USA)
- OR -
You can Contribute by wire transfer to Sloboda Association
Intermediary:
UBS AG
Zurich, Switzerland
Swift Code: UBSWCHZH
Account with:
/ 756 - CHF
/ 840 - USD
/ 978 - EUR
Kmercijalna Banka AD
SV. Save 14, 11000 Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia
Swift Code: KOBBYUBG
Beneficiary: Account No. 5428-1246-16154-6
SLOBODA
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Thank you!
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
Subscribe to the ICDSM email list at
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Receive articles posted at emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
Send the link to this text to a friend! If you are receiving this
article via e-mail please forward it to a friend.
=================================
Slobodan Milosevic's Cross-Examination of
Croatian President Stjepan Mesic: PART XII
Because the transcript of the cross-examination
is 150 pages long we have broken it into 12
easy to read segments. If you wish to read the whole thing
at once go to: http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm/more/mesic.htm
=================================
Page 10735
1 You've got another five minutes. Do you want to ask some more
2 questions, Mr. Milosevic, this afternoon, or are you finished for the
day?
3 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
4 Q. Tell me, Mr. Mesic: Were your claim correct, what sort of
5 obligation would the army have to obey me had I ordered the army, the
then
6 JNA, to do something? Why would they have had to obey me? How could I
7 have issued them with orders?
8 A. Formally they were under no obligation. That's precisely the
9 point. You issued orders to that army, and when I asked General
Kadijevic
10 why he was obeying only you, he said: Everybody else in Serbia is
even
11 worse. You should discuss this with General Kadijevic.
12 Q. As far as I know, you asked him why he was communicating with me
13 at all, not why he was obeying me. Because, as you know, that is
untrue.
14 A. General Kadijevic, as the Secretary of National Defence, never,
15 throughout my term of office in Belgrade, came to see me. Just recall
how
16 many times you talked to him.
17 Q. Less than you, I assume as his supreme commander.
18 A. You're making me laugh again. This is no place for us to laugh.
19 Q. On page 17 of your statement, you say that the Rump Presidency
20 implemented a putsch, a coup d'etat. Was this a Rump Presidency
because
21 you obstructed its functioning and those who followed you in your
22 obstruction, or was it a Rump Presidency because those who continued
to
23 attend the sessions were continuing to fulfil their obligations? Was
it a
24 Rump Presidency because you left it or because they remained at their
25 posts performing their duty? Is there any logic in this, Mr. Mesic?
Page 10736
1 A. The Rump Presidency could not be established by any legal and
2 legitimate means, by any extensive interpretations of the
constitution.
3 This was an illegal group of people which introduced a state of
emergency,
4 at the suggestion of Slobodan Milosevic, because he was the only one
who
5 had any influence over those people and over that Rump Presidency. And
6 let me give you a piece of information. My advisor remained in
Belgrade.
7 The room, the premises where the Presidency and later the Rump
Presidency
8 had its sessions had a connecting door leading to my former cabinet.
My
9 advisor listened to what they were talking about. He came to Croatia
by
10 way of Hungary and reported to me, so that I knew what the Rump
Presidency
11 was discussing. Slobodan Milosevic asked that Vukovar be left alone
and
12 that the army go to Zagreb. And General Kadijevic said that this was
13 impossible because the Croats had gained in military strength to such
an
14 extent that they would attack his flanks and he would not be able to
reach
15 Zagreb. So the opinion prevailed in the end that Vukovar had to be
16 destroyed. This is my interpretation now, but it was the accused who
17 asked that Zagreb be attacked. The witness to this is my advisor who
told
18 me this.
19 JUDGE MAY: Let's follow this. When were you told that there had
20 been this discussion about Vukovar, Mr. Mesic? What sort of date are
we
21 dealing with?
22 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] This was the time when I was not
23 going to Belgrade, when there were frequent army attacks from Novi
Sad and
24 Belgrade against Vukovar, and my advisor was still in Belgrade. He
was in
25 Belgrade until Vukovar fell. And he used to come to see me by way of
Page 10737
1 Hungary, via Hungary.
2 MR. MILOSEVIC: [Interpretation]
3 Q. Mr. Mesic, do you know that the presidents of the republics at the
4 session of the Presidency, that they arrived only rarely and by
5 invitation, and that except on those rare occasions when all the other
6 presidents of the republics were present, I never took part in any
7 sessions of the Presidency? How can you put forward such fabrications,
8 such falsehoods? You should know that. And you say this was put to you
9 by your advisor --
10 JUDGE MAY: It's suggested, Mr. Mesic, that this is not true.
11 Perhaps you could answer that and then we'll adjourn.
12 THE WITNESS: [Interpretation] First I have to say that the accused
13 is now speculating. These are not sessions of the Presidency of the
SFRY,
14 because I know very well how any session chaired by me was convocated
[As
15 interpreted]. I'm speaking about sessions of the Rump Presidency. Who
16 they invited and how, I don't know. I only know what my advisor told
me.
17 JUDGE MAY: We're going to adjourn now. It's 2.00. Tomorrow
18 morning -- you can go on tomorrow morning about this.
19 JUDGE KWON: Before we adjourn and before too late, I'd like to
20 suggest the registrar to exhibit Mr. Mesic's transcript the in
Dokmanovic,
21 which we didn't.
22 THE REGISTRAR: Your Honours, I believe it was marked Exhibit 329.
23 JUDGE KWON: Those are exhibits.
24 THE REGISTRAR: I will look into that.
25 MR. NICE: I think the position is that part of the transcript was
Page 10738
1 marked on its side as exhibited pursuant to the 92 bis package and the
2 other part wasn't. So there might be grounds for simply taking the
whole
3 Dokmanovic transcript and exhibiting it as His Honour Judge Kwon
proposes.
4 JUDGE MAY: Just a moment. First of all, we'll deal with the
5 exhibit number. Yes.
6 THE REGISTRAR: Prosecution's Exhibit 331.
7 THE ACCUSED: [Interpretation] I asked that the other transcript,
8 which contains a more extensive testimony by Mr. Mesic, also be
tendered
9 into evidence. I will not say what the case is, because he was a
10 protected witness in that case.
11 JUDGE MAY: We haven't seen that. Is there any objection to that
12 being done?
13 MR. NICE: Can I think about that over night. One of my problems
14 is is that in two cases the page references of the accused don't
match the
15 transcript I have and I haven't been able to find the references he
made.
16 JUDGE MAY: We'll consider that overnight. Meanwhile, I would
17 remind everybody that we are sitting tomorrow from 9.00 in the
morning
18 until half past 4.00, 4.00 to half past tomorrow, 4.00 or half past
19 tomorrow.
20 Mr. Mesic, would you be back, please, for the first session
21 tomorrow. Thank you. 9.00 tomorrow.
22 --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.04 p.m.,
23 to be reconvened on Thursday, the 3rd day of
24 October 2002, at 9.00 a.m.
25
***** Urgent Message from Sloboda (Freedom) Association and the
International
Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic!
The Freedom Association in Belgrade and the ICDSM, based outside
Yugoslavia, are the two
organizations formed at the request of Slobodan Milosevic to aid in his
defense.
Up until now our main work has been threefold. We have publicized the
truth about The
Hague's phony trial. We have organized research to help President
Milosevic expose
NATO's lies. And we have initiated legal action in the Dutch and
European Courts.
Now our job has increased. The defense phase of the "trial" starts in
May 2003. No longer
will Mr. Milosevic be limited to cross-examining Hague witnesses. The
prosecution will be
forced further onto the defensive as victims of NATO's aggression and
experts from
Yugoslavia and the NATO countries tell what really happened and expose
media lies.
Moreover, Mr. Milosevic will call leaders, from East and West, some
friendly and some
hostile to the truth.
The controlled mass media will undoubtedly try to suppress this
testimony as they have tried
to suppress Mr. Milosevic's cross-examinations. Nevertheless this phase
of the "trial" will
be the biggest international forum ever to expose NATO's use of racism,
violence and lies to
attack Yugoslavia.
We urgently need the help of all people who care about what is happening
in The Hague.
Right now, Nico Steijnen , the Dutch lawyer in the ICDSM, is waging
legal battles in the
Dutch courts and before the European Court, about which more news soon.
These efforts
urgently require financial support. We now maintain a small staff of
Yugoslav lawyers in
Holland, assisting and advising Mr. Milosevic full-time. We need to
expand our Dutch
facilities, perhaps bringing in a non-Yugoslav attorney full-time.
Definitely we must
guarantee that we have an office and office manager available at all
times, to compile and
process evidence and for meetings with witnesses and lawyers and as a
base for organizing
press conferences.
All this costs money. And for this, we rely on those who want Mr.
Milosevic to have the best
possible support for attacking NATO's lies.
************
Here's how you can help...
************
* You may contribute by credit card. By the end of September we will
have an ICDSM
secure server so you can contribute directly on the Internet.
For now, you can contribute by credit card in two ways: *
You can Contribute by Credit Card over the Telephone by calling:
ICDSM office, USA: 1 617 916-1705
SLOBODA (Freedom) Association office, Belgrade: 381 63 279 819
You can Contribute using PayPal at:
https://www.paypal.com/xclick/business=icdsm%40aol.com
PayPal accepts VISA and MasterCard
You can Contribute by mail to:
ICDSM
831 Beacon St., #295
Newton Centre, MA 02459 (USA)
- OR -
You can Contribute by wire transfer to Sloboda Association
Intermediary:
UBS AG
Zurich, Switzerland
Swift Code: UBSWCHZH
Account with:
/ 756 - CHF
/ 840 - USD
/ 978 - EUR
Kmercijalna Banka AD
SV. Save 14, 11000 Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia
Swift Code: KOBBYUBG
Beneficiary: Account No. 5428-1246-16154-6
SLOBODA
Rajiceva 16, 11000 Belgrade, FR Yugoslavia
Thank you!
http://emperor.vwh.net/icdsm
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:34:28 -0500 (EST)
From: "Wolfgang Mueller"
Subject: The "Last" Republic Day
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 04:18:34 EST
From: Petokraka78
Subject: The "Last" Republic Day
The "Last" Republic Day
By: K. Kilibarda
Nov. 29, 2002 - Today is the "last" Republic Day to be celebrated in
Yugoslavia. The day was designed to commemorate the establishment of
communist Yugoslavia and to remember the forging of a national
liberation project out of a bloody conflict triggered by Nazi German
and Italian fascist occupation of the Balkans. It was a decisive
break with the old monarchical system and a step towards a new future
of free peoples.
The current nationalist and monarchist tendencies in the DOS regime
have sought to put an end to this "communist" holliday, fittingly
exised by the Yugoslav parliament as the country lurches into deeper
and deeper colonization and its final dissolution.
A "constitutional reform" is being foisted upon the country by Javier
Solana, who three years ago led the NATO aggression on Yugoslavia, in
a top-down process that nobody in the country really wants and has no
other purpose but to wipe the name "Yugoslavia" off the world map.
"Republic Day" and "Yugoslavia" aren't the only things
being "cleansed" by NATO from the Balkan space - new history books in
Serbia, for instance, now teach children that contrary to "myth" the
rulers of the medieval Serbian state didn't develop an advanced
Byzantine civilization, but instead probably lived in mud-huts and
were inferior to the kingdoms in Western Europe.
Yet the assumption that by wiping out memory one can wipe out
resistance is foolish. Next year Yugoslavia will remember the popular
deposition of the pro-Hapsburgh Obrenovic dynasty in 1903 - which
incidently shares many similiarities with the DOS regime, including
the contempt with which they are held in by the people - and in 2004
the 200 year anniversary of the first Serbian uprising that set in
motion the process of national liberation for the peoples of the
Balkans will also be marked (coincidently the same year that the
Haitian people liberated themselves from colonial oppression and
established the first state of freed slaves in the modern world).
History also has a lesson for fascist puppet regimes, like the one
that rules in Serbia currently under the DOS and its twin evil in
Montenegro, the DPS.
The people of Serbia rose up in 1941 against the regency that had
signed onto the Axis Pact and soundly rejected this policy of
collaboration and servility (and eventually defeating Serbian
fascists like Stojadinovic, Nedic, Ljotic, and of course Djurisic in
Montenegro).
It is noteworthy that many DOS ideologues believe that "the Serbs"
made a "foolish" mistake for resisting Hitler, essentially arguing
that Serbia would have been better off if the Serbs never resisted
Nazi occupation.
In the late 1980s it was workers throughout Yugoslavia, but
particularly in Serbia - where 2 out of every three workers slated to
lose their jobs under Ante Markovic's reforms aimed at liquidating
nearly 2,500 state firms - that stood up and said no to the
neoliberal agenda.
In 1989, workers in Montenegro seized power of the government and
refused to cooperate with the neoliberal agenda (and this episode has
already long-ago been forgotten in discourses about the Yugoslav
wars).
In fact what happened in the republics of Serbia and Montenegro was
that the people chose the wrong script for what was supposed to
be "The End of History".
But why look to the past? In fact, resistance is fertile in
Yugoslavia at this very moment, with strikes, blockades, boycots,
protests and hunger fasts being employed by citizens to once again
resist the imposition of a neoliberal agenda on Yugoslavia.
The walls of the country proclaim the dissolusionment with
DOS: "propaDOSmo" (we've been ruined), "DOS-TA" (Enough!), and "GOTOV
JE DOS" (DOS is Finished) can be seen on most street corners.
While the colonizer and collaborators may relish in erradicating the
people's memory of resistence, the project will never be accomplished
so long as there are people to resist.
They may not have a party that represents them, they may not have a
leader yet, but the people of these lands will sooner or later show
the occupier the way out (as they have done so many times in the
past). It's only a matter of time before the people celebrate another
victory and another evil is relegated to the history books...
From: "Wolfgang Mueller"
Subject: The "Last" Republic Day
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2002 04:18:34 EST
From: Petokraka78
Subject: The "Last" Republic Day
The "Last" Republic Day
By: K. Kilibarda
Nov. 29, 2002 - Today is the "last" Republic Day to be celebrated in
Yugoslavia. The day was designed to commemorate the establishment of
communist Yugoslavia and to remember the forging of a national
liberation project out of a bloody conflict triggered by Nazi German
and Italian fascist occupation of the Balkans. It was a decisive
break with the old monarchical system and a step towards a new future
of free peoples.
The current nationalist and monarchist tendencies in the DOS regime
have sought to put an end to this "communist" holliday, fittingly
exised by the Yugoslav parliament as the country lurches into deeper
and deeper colonization and its final dissolution.
A "constitutional reform" is being foisted upon the country by Javier
Solana, who three years ago led the NATO aggression on Yugoslavia, in
a top-down process that nobody in the country really wants and has no
other purpose but to wipe the name "Yugoslavia" off the world map.
"Republic Day" and "Yugoslavia" aren't the only things
being "cleansed" by NATO from the Balkan space - new history books in
Serbia, for instance, now teach children that contrary to "myth" the
rulers of the medieval Serbian state didn't develop an advanced
Byzantine civilization, but instead probably lived in mud-huts and
were inferior to the kingdoms in Western Europe.
Yet the assumption that by wiping out memory one can wipe out
resistance is foolish. Next year Yugoslavia will remember the popular
deposition of the pro-Hapsburgh Obrenovic dynasty in 1903 - which
incidently shares many similiarities with the DOS regime, including
the contempt with which they are held in by the people - and in 2004
the 200 year anniversary of the first Serbian uprising that set in
motion the process of national liberation for the peoples of the
Balkans will also be marked (coincidently the same year that the
Haitian people liberated themselves from colonial oppression and
established the first state of freed slaves in the modern world).
History also has a lesson for fascist puppet regimes, like the one
that rules in Serbia currently under the DOS and its twin evil in
Montenegro, the DPS.
The people of Serbia rose up in 1941 against the regency that had
signed onto the Axis Pact and soundly rejected this policy of
collaboration and servility (and eventually defeating Serbian
fascists like Stojadinovic, Nedic, Ljotic, and of course Djurisic in
Montenegro).
It is noteworthy that many DOS ideologues believe that "the Serbs"
made a "foolish" mistake for resisting Hitler, essentially arguing
that Serbia would have been better off if the Serbs never resisted
Nazi occupation.
In the late 1980s it was workers throughout Yugoslavia, but
particularly in Serbia - where 2 out of every three workers slated to
lose their jobs under Ante Markovic's reforms aimed at liquidating
nearly 2,500 state firms - that stood up and said no to the
neoliberal agenda.
In 1989, workers in Montenegro seized power of the government and
refused to cooperate with the neoliberal agenda (and this episode has
already long-ago been forgotten in discourses about the Yugoslav
wars).
In fact what happened in the republics of Serbia and Montenegro was
that the people chose the wrong script for what was supposed to
be "The End of History".
But why look to the past? In fact, resistance is fertile in
Yugoslavia at this very moment, with strikes, blockades, boycots,
protests and hunger fasts being employed by citizens to once again
resist the imposition of a neoliberal agenda on Yugoslavia.
The walls of the country proclaim the dissolusionment with
DOS: "propaDOSmo" (we've been ruined), "DOS-TA" (Enough!), and "GOTOV
JE DOS" (DOS is Finished) can be seen on most street corners.
While the colonizer and collaborators may relish in erradicating the
people's memory of resistence, the project will never be accomplished
so long as there are people to resist.
They may not have a party that represents them, they may not have a
leader yet, but the people of these lands will sooner or later show
the occupier the way out (as they have done so many times in the
past). It's only a matter of time before the people celebrate another
victory and another evil is relegated to the history books...
Giriamo questa intervista a Kostunica - sperando di poterla tradurre
presto anche in italiano - che contiene, anche tra le righe, molte
informazioni interessanti, negate alla nostra opinione pubblica. Tra
queste:
* Il famoso gruppo di funzionari della Banca Mondiale e del FMI,
"G17", diventerà un partito.
* Si parla della "lustracija" in atto nelle istituzioni
serbe/jugoslave. "Lustracija" e' un termine eufemisticamente adoperato
e lanciato da Bozidar Djelic - uomo dei francesi che prima di andare
in missione "imperiale" post-Milosevic a Belgrado lavorava per
Disneyland... Abbiamo visto tutti come hanno "lustrato" dopo il 5
ottobre le aziende, gli enti ed i ministeri nella Serbia, cacciando i
socialisti ed i sindacalisti con le botte ed i licenziamenti di massa.
La chiamano "lustracija" ma sono *purghe* vere e proprie.
(a cura di Olga ed Andrea)
---
http://www.glas-javnosti.co.yu/danas/srpski/I02120101.shtml
Glas javnosti, 2.decembar, 2002.
Intervju:
Vojislav Kostunica, predsednicki kandidat
DSS, o izborima, ustavnoj povelji, srpskim
strankama
Demokratske promene koce jaki ljudi na vlasti
Izbore je raspisala Vlada Srbije: ako ne uspeju, Vlada je
odgovorna za to
- Ako se izbori raspisu u nevreme, u vreme kada to nije
moralo, onda je jasno da su prepreke namerno
postavljene. Za to vreme mogla je da se zavrsi ustavna
povelja da bi zemlja mogla da postane clan Saveta Evrope.
Da smo krajem avgusta sve snage tome posvetili, taj posao
bismo zavrsili. Izbori su toboze ranije raspisani da bi se
zavrsili do kraja godine. Medutim, nekima je sasvim
svejedno da li ce Srbija imati predsednika. Smatraju da
nam ne treba niz institucija, sem Vlade i premijera - kaze
Vojislav Kostunica, predsednik SRJ i predsednicki
kandidat DSS-a na izborima 8. decembra.
U intervjuu "Glasu javnosti", Kostunica ukazuje da je u
prethodnom periodu Skupstina tavorila, a da pre toga
dugo nije obrazovan Ustavni sud.
............................
Moguca saradnja
Kako komentarisete najavu da ce G17 Plus da se
transformise u politicku stranku.
- Za mene je pozitivno da oni nemaju potcenjivacki
odnos prema izborima i imaju drugaciji odnos prema
institucijama nego Demokratska stranka. Oni imaju
odgovoran
stav, i to je osnov i za neku saradnju. Mozemo da
razgovaramo, ali ne moramo da se slozimo o svemu. Ali,
u razgovor se ne moze uci unapred ocekujuci da ce druga
strana prihvatiti sve. To je bio nas problem u
komunikaciji sa DS-om.
..............................
Kome je u interesu da ovi izbori propadnu?
- Srbiji je potreban novi ustav, sto podrazumeva siroku
javnu debatu. Ta debata i novi ustav vode nas necemu
vrlo nepozeljnom za Vladu Srbije, a to su novi, odnosno
prevremeni parlamentarni izbori. I tu se nalazimo u
vrzinom kolu, posto Vlada to nece. Zato pokusavaju da
osujete predsednicke izbore, koje dodatno obesmisljavaju
pricom da predsednik ne treba da se bira na neposrednim
izborima. Jednostavno, tu se radi samo o nastojanju da se
vlast koncentrise na jednom mestu i da bude sto
veca. A upravo smo protiv toga bili kad smo pozvali
gradane da nas podrze 2000.
DOS nije zauzeo jedinstven stav oko izbora. Sta je
konkretno DS trazio od Vas u zamenu za podrsku?
- Nejedinstvo DOS-a je prirodno, jer je on stvoren da bi
obavio jedan zadatak. Nije ni ranije bilo jedinstvenog
gledanja na drzavu, ekonomske promene, stanje u zemlji i
to se vremenom samo pojacalo. To se pokazalo i na
poslednjoj sednici DOS-a, jer su se stranke prakticno
podelile na one koje imaju odgovoran odnos prema drzavi,
koje su za vlast omedenu institucijama, i na one koje
su za odsustvo zakona, slabije institucije, a mocne,
cak svemocne pojedince. To je suprotno demokratskom
preuredenju zemlje i vladavini prava. Moji stavovi su
poznati i nisu se menjali ni pre ni posle 2000. godine i
sve politicke stranke koje se zalazu za demokratski razvoj
imaju mogucnost da podrze te stavove.
Prica celnika DS - da vidimo program, vi podrzite Vladu
Srbije, pa cemo i mi vas - neodoljivo podseca na izgovore
koje su nama pre desetak godina postavljali socijalisti.
Kome nije jasna razlika izmedu mog i programa Vojislava
Seselja? Srbija bira izmedu jedne demokratske opcije i
druge koja ima mnogo elemenata demagogije,
neodgovornosti i nudi stanje kakvo je bilo pre 24.
septembra. Mi sad biramo hocemo li da se vratimo dve
godine unazad ili hocemo da idemo dalje uz jedan normalan
dijalog. Predsednik Vlade, medutim, dijalog shvata
iskljucivo kao pohvale Vladi.
Optimista ste kada je rec o uspehu izbora, ali ako se desi
suprotno, ne iskljucujete mogucnost pada Vlade. Kako
DSS to moze da ostvari?
- Izbori su raspisani pod uslovima koje je odredila
prakticno Vlada Srbije, odnosno vladajuca grupacija. Ako
ti izbori ne uspeju, uz sav trud koji ulaze javnost,
medunarodna zajednica i svi koji su se angazovali, pitanje
je ko bi snosio odgovornost osim onoga ko ih je raspisao.
Izbori su kod nas organizovani po kriterijumima koje
je uveo Slobodan Milosevic, a preuzela Vlada Srbije.
Nema cak ni sredenih birackih spiskova, upisani su i oni
koji ne mogu da glasaju jer vise nisu medu zivima, vlast ne
omogucava da glasaju oni koji imaju nase drzavljanstvo, a
zive u inostranstvu, imamo problem invalida.
..........................
Podrska iz sveta
Postoje razlicite pretpostavke o podrsci nasim strankama
iz inostranih centara moci.
- Svet razlicito kalkulise, u pojedinim zemljama oni bi da
podrze i nekog ko nema mnogo uticaja, i to pokusavaju
na mnoge nacine. Ja sam potpuno miran i spokojan
iako me neki drugi podrzavaju, ne samo Evropljani koji su
nam najblizi, svesni cinjenice da tu podrsku imam i u
narodu, a to je ipak najvaznije.
...............................
U septembru je krajnje licemerno napravljena kozmeticka
promena: "sirokogrudo" je ukinut cenzus u drugom
krugu, ali je ostavljen za prvi. Zato, ako predsednicki
izbori ne uspeju, onda su tu drugi - parlamentarni. U tom
slucaju morace da se promeni redosled i to ce nam
oduzeti jos vremena kada je rec o radu na novom ustavu. Vlada
Srbije sada ima klimavu vecinu, a to se videlo nedavno pri
utvrdivanju dnevnog reda u Skupstini Srbije.
Da li je moguc kompromis sa DS-om buduci da sve
ukazuje da ce i posle sledecih parlamentarnih izbora
koalicije biti neminovne?
- Bice neophodne koalicije, ali zdrave. To su one koje se
sklapaju posle, a ne pre izbora. Sada ima stranaka koje
politicki nista ne znace, a samim tim nemaju nikakvu
odgovornost. Jednim madionicarskim trikom predsednik
DS-a Zoran Dindic tu njihovu nemoc pretvara u moc.
Glasovi se sabiraju u virtuelnom telu koje se zove
Predsednistvo DOS-a.
Posto ne sme da se suoci s cinjenicom da nema podrsku
u birackom telu, Dindic vredno sabira glasove "velikih"
stranaka, kao sto su Koalicija "Za Sumadiju",
Perisiceva i stranka Veselinova. Sve kombinacije posle
izbora su moguce, kad se prode kroz sito i reseto i kad se
odmeri realna snaga. DS sad trazi podrsku u
strankama koje su jedva mikroskopski vidljive.
Vas je slogan "Za demokratsku Srbiju", koje nema bez
reformi. U cemu se razlikuje Vas i plan premijera Srbije?
- Razlika nije u brzini, to su pogresne pretpostavke: ja
sam cak za brze reforme. Za to sam da Srbija dobije novi
ustav, a to je moglo da se desi i pre ustavne povelje.
Jer, kad smo potpisali Beogradski sporazum, mi smo vec
imali konture drzavne zajednice. Kad se pogleda prica o
demokratskim, jakim institucijama i o podeli vlasti,
jasno se vidi da premijer i ja imamo potpuno razlicita
gledista. Teret promena moraju podjednako poneti svi. To
je moguce samo dijalogom izmedu sindikata, vlasti i
poslodavaca.
Medutim, svedoci smo da pojedina tela, kojima je Vlada
Srbije poverila borbu protiv korupcije, napustaju ljudi koji
su tu usli iz najboljih namera. I tu se nista ne menja. I
dalje postoji sprega ljudi kojima je dobro islo u starom
rezimu, a kojima dobro ide i sada. Oni su samo promenili
gospodara.
Nisam, medutim, za lustraciju jer je to za mene cistka, ne
zna se gde bi se pocelo, ni gde bi se stalo, a imali bismo i
velike potrese u drustvu. Neprihvatljivo je i to da
malo-malo neko iz Vlade Srbije kaze da neku sudsku
presudu nece postovati. Znaci, ili cemo imati sistem u
kome ce sudstvo biti vazno, ili ce biti samo privezak vlasti.
Kompromis je neophodan za usvajanje ustavne povelje -
ko sad treba da popusti?
- Ustavnu povelju treba da usvoje sve tri skupstine,
najpre republicke pa Savezna. Nadam se da ce SNP da
prihvati odgovornost i da ce kod njih prevladati stav da
ono sto je nedavno dobijeno nije Dukanoviceva vec njihova
pobeda. On je taj koji je po svaku cenu bio protiv
neposrednih izbora i imao je psiholoski problem da
izgovori te dve reci. U ustavnoj povelji bice zapisano da
su neposredni izbori pravilo, a da su posredni izuzetak.
Dvojica vasih protivkandidata stalno pominju zastitu
nasih nacionalnih interesa. Sta su sad nasi nacionalni
interesi?
- Srbiji je potrebno donosenje novog ustava, potrebno je
da se poveca bezbednost na Kosovu i Metohiji, da se vrate
raseljeni, da pocne da se realizuje Sporazum o
slobodnoj trgovini. Takode, treba da pocne da se resava i
jedno od najbolnijih pitanja, a to je mogucnost povratka,
integracije i imovinskog statusa izbeglica. Interes je da
se regulisu odnosi s nasim najprirodnijim okruzenjem, sa
Evropom, sa Amerikom, Rusijom, Kinom... Potrebno je
da se koriste mogucnosti ekonomske saradnje sa
zemljama Treceg sveta koje su bili nasi jaki poslovni
partneri. Na njihovom trzistu imamo daleko vece sanse
nego na zapadnoevropskom.
Sta nam predstoji u saradnji s Haskim tribunalom?
- Ta saradnja se ne moze izbeci, ali ona mora da bude
dvosmerna i malo vise u nasu korist nego sto je to bilo
dosad. Jer i Haski tribunal mora da preuzme odredene
obaveze kad je rec o ljudima koji su se dobrovoljno
predali. Garancije za odbranu sa slobode dali su Savezna i
Republicka vlada, ali do njihovog pustanja nije doslo.
Nisu ispostovali tu nepisanu obavezu. Hasko tuzilastvo je
veoma zahtevno i ono stvara jednu projekciju dogadaja.
Odgovornih ima na svim stranama, a neki uopste nisu
spomenuti. Deo vlasti se vise ponasao kao filijala Haskog
suda umesto da budu servis sopstvene drzave i da Hag
suocavaju sa dokumentacijom koja ce baciti drugacije
svetlo na odredene dogadaje, posebno kada je rec o
pocetku rata.
U nezvanicnom izvestaju Medunarodne krizne grupe tvrdi
se da ste i Vi znali za poslove sa Irakom. Sta je istina?
- Cim smo dosli do odredenih podataka, odmah su
preuzete mere da se sve ispita. Jer moglo je da se
posumnja da je trgovina koja je obavljana pod starim rezimom
u nekom obliku i nastavljena. Formirane su komisije koje to
treba sve da ispitaju, Skupstina ce se time baviti i sve ce
izaci na povrsinu, iako se ne radi o trgovini opasnim i
smrtonosnim oruzjem. Ali, postoje sankcije UN i one su
zakon. Izvestaj MKG cak ni ne postoji na njihovom sajtu.
Nije prvi put da mi MKG nesto podmece. Uostalom, ta
grupa je tipovala da ce Milosevic da pobedi 2000. godine i
tom ocenom su i agitovali da se to ostvari. Cini se da
njihov cilj nije suzbijanje nego podsticanje krize.
Kakav je vas stav povodom tuzbe SRJ protiv NATO?
- Ono sto je NATO uradio u Srbiji nije relikt proslog
rezima, vec pitanje njihove odgovornosti. To pitanje mora
da ostane otvoreno, posebno sto su tu tuzbe BiH i
Hrvatske podnete takode Medunarodnom sudu pravde u Hagu.
Bilo je zlocina sa svih strana i odgovornost za to se ne
moze izbeci. Tuzba mora da ostane bas zbog tuzbi koje su
podnete protiv nase zemlje, zbog materijalne i moralne
satisfakcije.
Dragutin Stevanovic
presto anche in italiano - che contiene, anche tra le righe, molte
informazioni interessanti, negate alla nostra opinione pubblica. Tra
queste:
* Il famoso gruppo di funzionari della Banca Mondiale e del FMI,
"G17", diventerà un partito.
* Si parla della "lustracija" in atto nelle istituzioni
serbe/jugoslave. "Lustracija" e' un termine eufemisticamente adoperato
e lanciato da Bozidar Djelic - uomo dei francesi che prima di andare
in missione "imperiale" post-Milosevic a Belgrado lavorava per
Disneyland... Abbiamo visto tutti come hanno "lustrato" dopo il 5
ottobre le aziende, gli enti ed i ministeri nella Serbia, cacciando i
socialisti ed i sindacalisti con le botte ed i licenziamenti di massa.
La chiamano "lustracija" ma sono *purghe* vere e proprie.
(a cura di Olga ed Andrea)
---
http://www.glas-javnosti.co.yu/danas/srpski/I02120101.shtml
Glas javnosti, 2.decembar, 2002.
Intervju:
Vojislav Kostunica, predsednicki kandidat
DSS, o izborima, ustavnoj povelji, srpskim
strankama
Demokratske promene koce jaki ljudi na vlasti
Izbore je raspisala Vlada Srbije: ako ne uspeju, Vlada je
odgovorna za to
- Ako se izbori raspisu u nevreme, u vreme kada to nije
moralo, onda je jasno da su prepreke namerno
postavljene. Za to vreme mogla je da se zavrsi ustavna
povelja da bi zemlja mogla da postane clan Saveta Evrope.
Da smo krajem avgusta sve snage tome posvetili, taj posao
bismo zavrsili. Izbori su toboze ranije raspisani da bi se
zavrsili do kraja godine. Medutim, nekima je sasvim
svejedno da li ce Srbija imati predsednika. Smatraju da
nam ne treba niz institucija, sem Vlade i premijera - kaze
Vojislav Kostunica, predsednik SRJ i predsednicki
kandidat DSS-a na izborima 8. decembra.
U intervjuu "Glasu javnosti", Kostunica ukazuje da je u
prethodnom periodu Skupstina tavorila, a da pre toga
dugo nije obrazovan Ustavni sud.
............................
Moguca saradnja
Kako komentarisete najavu da ce G17 Plus da se
transformise u politicku stranku.
- Za mene je pozitivno da oni nemaju potcenjivacki
odnos prema izborima i imaju drugaciji odnos prema
institucijama nego Demokratska stranka. Oni imaju
odgovoran
stav, i to je osnov i za neku saradnju. Mozemo da
razgovaramo, ali ne moramo da se slozimo o svemu. Ali,
u razgovor se ne moze uci unapred ocekujuci da ce druga
strana prihvatiti sve. To je bio nas problem u
komunikaciji sa DS-om.
..............................
Kome je u interesu da ovi izbori propadnu?
- Srbiji je potreban novi ustav, sto podrazumeva siroku
javnu debatu. Ta debata i novi ustav vode nas necemu
vrlo nepozeljnom za Vladu Srbije, a to su novi, odnosno
prevremeni parlamentarni izbori. I tu se nalazimo u
vrzinom kolu, posto Vlada to nece. Zato pokusavaju da
osujete predsednicke izbore, koje dodatno obesmisljavaju
pricom da predsednik ne treba da se bira na neposrednim
izborima. Jednostavno, tu se radi samo o nastojanju da se
vlast koncentrise na jednom mestu i da bude sto
veca. A upravo smo protiv toga bili kad smo pozvali
gradane da nas podrze 2000.
DOS nije zauzeo jedinstven stav oko izbora. Sta je
konkretno DS trazio od Vas u zamenu za podrsku?
- Nejedinstvo DOS-a je prirodno, jer je on stvoren da bi
obavio jedan zadatak. Nije ni ranije bilo jedinstvenog
gledanja na drzavu, ekonomske promene, stanje u zemlji i
to se vremenom samo pojacalo. To se pokazalo i na
poslednjoj sednici DOS-a, jer su se stranke prakticno
podelile na one koje imaju odgovoran odnos prema drzavi,
koje su za vlast omedenu institucijama, i na one koje
su za odsustvo zakona, slabije institucije, a mocne,
cak svemocne pojedince. To je suprotno demokratskom
preuredenju zemlje i vladavini prava. Moji stavovi su
poznati i nisu se menjali ni pre ni posle 2000. godine i
sve politicke stranke koje se zalazu za demokratski razvoj
imaju mogucnost da podrze te stavove.
Prica celnika DS - da vidimo program, vi podrzite Vladu
Srbije, pa cemo i mi vas - neodoljivo podseca na izgovore
koje su nama pre desetak godina postavljali socijalisti.
Kome nije jasna razlika izmedu mog i programa Vojislava
Seselja? Srbija bira izmedu jedne demokratske opcije i
druge koja ima mnogo elemenata demagogije,
neodgovornosti i nudi stanje kakvo je bilo pre 24.
septembra. Mi sad biramo hocemo li da se vratimo dve
godine unazad ili hocemo da idemo dalje uz jedan normalan
dijalog. Predsednik Vlade, medutim, dijalog shvata
iskljucivo kao pohvale Vladi.
Optimista ste kada je rec o uspehu izbora, ali ako se desi
suprotno, ne iskljucujete mogucnost pada Vlade. Kako
DSS to moze da ostvari?
- Izbori su raspisani pod uslovima koje je odredila
prakticno Vlada Srbije, odnosno vladajuca grupacija. Ako
ti izbori ne uspeju, uz sav trud koji ulaze javnost,
medunarodna zajednica i svi koji su se angazovali, pitanje
je ko bi snosio odgovornost osim onoga ko ih je raspisao.
Izbori su kod nas organizovani po kriterijumima koje
je uveo Slobodan Milosevic, a preuzela Vlada Srbije.
Nema cak ni sredenih birackih spiskova, upisani su i oni
koji ne mogu da glasaju jer vise nisu medu zivima, vlast ne
omogucava da glasaju oni koji imaju nase drzavljanstvo, a
zive u inostranstvu, imamo problem invalida.
..........................
Podrska iz sveta
Postoje razlicite pretpostavke o podrsci nasim strankama
iz inostranih centara moci.
- Svet razlicito kalkulise, u pojedinim zemljama oni bi da
podrze i nekog ko nema mnogo uticaja, i to pokusavaju
na mnoge nacine. Ja sam potpuno miran i spokojan
iako me neki drugi podrzavaju, ne samo Evropljani koji su
nam najblizi, svesni cinjenice da tu podrsku imam i u
narodu, a to je ipak najvaznije.
...............................
U septembru je krajnje licemerno napravljena kozmeticka
promena: "sirokogrudo" je ukinut cenzus u drugom
krugu, ali je ostavljen za prvi. Zato, ako predsednicki
izbori ne uspeju, onda su tu drugi - parlamentarni. U tom
slucaju morace da se promeni redosled i to ce nam
oduzeti jos vremena kada je rec o radu na novom ustavu. Vlada
Srbije sada ima klimavu vecinu, a to se videlo nedavno pri
utvrdivanju dnevnog reda u Skupstini Srbije.
Da li je moguc kompromis sa DS-om buduci da sve
ukazuje da ce i posle sledecih parlamentarnih izbora
koalicije biti neminovne?
- Bice neophodne koalicije, ali zdrave. To su one koje se
sklapaju posle, a ne pre izbora. Sada ima stranaka koje
politicki nista ne znace, a samim tim nemaju nikakvu
odgovornost. Jednim madionicarskim trikom predsednik
DS-a Zoran Dindic tu njihovu nemoc pretvara u moc.
Glasovi se sabiraju u virtuelnom telu koje se zove
Predsednistvo DOS-a.
Posto ne sme da se suoci s cinjenicom da nema podrsku
u birackom telu, Dindic vredno sabira glasove "velikih"
stranaka, kao sto su Koalicija "Za Sumadiju",
Perisiceva i stranka Veselinova. Sve kombinacije posle
izbora su moguce, kad se prode kroz sito i reseto i kad se
odmeri realna snaga. DS sad trazi podrsku u
strankama koje su jedva mikroskopski vidljive.
Vas je slogan "Za demokratsku Srbiju", koje nema bez
reformi. U cemu se razlikuje Vas i plan premijera Srbije?
- Razlika nije u brzini, to su pogresne pretpostavke: ja
sam cak za brze reforme. Za to sam da Srbija dobije novi
ustav, a to je moglo da se desi i pre ustavne povelje.
Jer, kad smo potpisali Beogradski sporazum, mi smo vec
imali konture drzavne zajednice. Kad se pogleda prica o
demokratskim, jakim institucijama i o podeli vlasti,
jasno se vidi da premijer i ja imamo potpuno razlicita
gledista. Teret promena moraju podjednako poneti svi. To
je moguce samo dijalogom izmedu sindikata, vlasti i
poslodavaca.
Medutim, svedoci smo da pojedina tela, kojima je Vlada
Srbije poverila borbu protiv korupcije, napustaju ljudi koji
su tu usli iz najboljih namera. I tu se nista ne menja. I
dalje postoji sprega ljudi kojima je dobro islo u starom
rezimu, a kojima dobro ide i sada. Oni su samo promenili
gospodara.
Nisam, medutim, za lustraciju jer je to za mene cistka, ne
zna se gde bi se pocelo, ni gde bi se stalo, a imali bismo i
velike potrese u drustvu. Neprihvatljivo je i to da
malo-malo neko iz Vlade Srbije kaze da neku sudsku
presudu nece postovati. Znaci, ili cemo imati sistem u
kome ce sudstvo biti vazno, ili ce biti samo privezak vlasti.
Kompromis je neophodan za usvajanje ustavne povelje -
ko sad treba da popusti?
- Ustavnu povelju treba da usvoje sve tri skupstine,
najpre republicke pa Savezna. Nadam se da ce SNP da
prihvati odgovornost i da ce kod njih prevladati stav da
ono sto je nedavno dobijeno nije Dukanoviceva vec njihova
pobeda. On je taj koji je po svaku cenu bio protiv
neposrednih izbora i imao je psiholoski problem da
izgovori te dve reci. U ustavnoj povelji bice zapisano da
su neposredni izbori pravilo, a da su posredni izuzetak.
Dvojica vasih protivkandidata stalno pominju zastitu
nasih nacionalnih interesa. Sta su sad nasi nacionalni
interesi?
- Srbiji je potrebno donosenje novog ustava, potrebno je
da se poveca bezbednost na Kosovu i Metohiji, da se vrate
raseljeni, da pocne da se realizuje Sporazum o
slobodnoj trgovini. Takode, treba da pocne da se resava i
jedno od najbolnijih pitanja, a to je mogucnost povratka,
integracije i imovinskog statusa izbeglica. Interes je da
se regulisu odnosi s nasim najprirodnijim okruzenjem, sa
Evropom, sa Amerikom, Rusijom, Kinom... Potrebno je
da se koriste mogucnosti ekonomske saradnje sa
zemljama Treceg sveta koje su bili nasi jaki poslovni
partneri. Na njihovom trzistu imamo daleko vece sanse
nego na zapadnoevropskom.
Sta nam predstoji u saradnji s Haskim tribunalom?
- Ta saradnja se ne moze izbeci, ali ona mora da bude
dvosmerna i malo vise u nasu korist nego sto je to bilo
dosad. Jer i Haski tribunal mora da preuzme odredene
obaveze kad je rec o ljudima koji su se dobrovoljno
predali. Garancije za odbranu sa slobode dali su Savezna i
Republicka vlada, ali do njihovog pustanja nije doslo.
Nisu ispostovali tu nepisanu obavezu. Hasko tuzilastvo je
veoma zahtevno i ono stvara jednu projekciju dogadaja.
Odgovornih ima na svim stranama, a neki uopste nisu
spomenuti. Deo vlasti se vise ponasao kao filijala Haskog
suda umesto da budu servis sopstvene drzave i da Hag
suocavaju sa dokumentacijom koja ce baciti drugacije
svetlo na odredene dogadaje, posebno kada je rec o
pocetku rata.
U nezvanicnom izvestaju Medunarodne krizne grupe tvrdi
se da ste i Vi znali za poslove sa Irakom. Sta je istina?
- Cim smo dosli do odredenih podataka, odmah su
preuzete mere da se sve ispita. Jer moglo je da se
posumnja da je trgovina koja je obavljana pod starim rezimom
u nekom obliku i nastavljena. Formirane su komisije koje to
treba sve da ispitaju, Skupstina ce se time baviti i sve ce
izaci na povrsinu, iako se ne radi o trgovini opasnim i
smrtonosnim oruzjem. Ali, postoje sankcije UN i one su
zakon. Izvestaj MKG cak ni ne postoji na njihovom sajtu.
Nije prvi put da mi MKG nesto podmece. Uostalom, ta
grupa je tipovala da ce Milosevic da pobedi 2000. godine i
tom ocenom su i agitovali da se to ostvari. Cini se da
njihov cilj nije suzbijanje nego podsticanje krize.
Kakav je vas stav povodom tuzbe SRJ protiv NATO?
- Ono sto je NATO uradio u Srbiji nije relikt proslog
rezima, vec pitanje njihove odgovornosti. To pitanje mora
da ostane otvoreno, posebno sto su tu tuzbe BiH i
Hrvatske podnete takode Medunarodnom sudu pravde u Hagu.
Bilo je zlocina sa svih strana i odgovornost za to se ne
moze izbeci. Tuzba mora da ostane bas zbog tuzbi koje su
podnete protiv nase zemlje, zbog materijalne i moralne
satisfakcije.
Dragutin Stevanovic
