Jugoinfo
* Interview with Halid Causevic (Dani, 1997)
* Last Days of "Paradise" (Dani, 1998)
"Dani" e' una rivista bosniaco-musulmana di tendenza laicista, legata
alla lobby "Open Society" di Soros: http://www.bhdani.com/
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-
Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, November 24 1997
Interview with Halid Causevic, by Nerzuk Curak
Halid Causevic is a brilliant colocutor. It is hard to agree with a
large
number of his scientific and political theses (even absolutely
impossible
with some) but his methodology and elaboration of the claims is
convincing
and devoid of any hypocrisy. This liberal Bosnian intellectual, who
likes to
say for himself that he is only a journalist whose field of interest is
mostly related to the sociology of religion and constitutional law, in
the
exclusive interview for Dani, the first one after several years of
silence,
talks about president Izetbegovic, SDA, Latic, reis Ceris, relationship
between Islamic community and the ruling party... In the legal analysis
of
the current situation in Bosnia-Hercegovina, a son of distinguished reis
Dzemaludin Causevic doesn't flinch from stating a politically and
legally
indefensible claim: the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina was a religious and
civil
war and not an aggression.
Mr. Causevic, in the past you were among the closest friends of Mr.
Izetbegovic, but in the mean time your political views have dramatically
diverged. Why?
It's very simple: I was and remain Izetbegovic's friend because of a
simple
reason that we were colleagues. We saw each other in meetings, but I
could
never accept his views. For example, he was an orthodox Muslim, actually
a
Muslim who goes beyond orthodoxy, while I have always viewed the whole
thing
fairly liberally. Because of that our friendship was pretty cool. We saw
each
other, talked, but we never touched upon those topics which would have
been
interesting for him, and that is Islamization of [Bosnian] Muslims. That
was
out of question because he knew that my views on that topic are
extremely
liberal. Especially after I read his Islamic Declaration, which is
fundamentally unacceptable; even before the war I told him: Alija, what
are
you doing? With such actions we won't get anywhere in Europe. Simply, at
some
point, we'll be thrown out of the small piece of Europe where we live
today.
That's the point.
How did Izetbegovic react to those words?
He said: that is my view and I cannot change my opinion. That was years
ago
and I don't remember his exact words but that was the gist of what he
said.
Later, when I received his manuscript Islam between East and West for
review
from Gazi Husrev Bey's library, I almost fainted. Perhaps you already
know
about this: his attitude was that Islam must place its economic policy
between capitalism and current socialist doctrine. I met him after that,
next
to the Car's bridge and said: Alija, do you understand that there is no
doctrine in Islam? Which religion has its doctrine? Catholic church
established its social catholicism and what happened to it? The economic
doctrine follows its direction and it doesn't have respect for religion,
nor
a man, nothing and nobody. It has its direction and he (Izetbegovic,
author's
remark) believes that zakat, i.e. alms, should be interpolated between
capitalism and socialism. Then, I told him: do you know what zakat is?
According to Islam that is two percent of capital in circulation and
gold
reserves. In that case we would walk hungry, the state couldn't exist.
Does
Saudi Arabia use that system? Of course not, he responded, we would have
to
experiment. There are no experiments in economics. The economics has its
strict rules and if you tell me that zakat is the economics of Islam,
you
should know that I would recommend against the publication of your book.
And
it wasn't published in Gazi Husrev Bey's library. During the war, it was
published by "Svjetlost" and, to tell the truth, I didn't have money to
buy
it.
It seems Mr. Causevic, that we are witnessing some social processes
which, in
my opinion, are counterproductive. When I say that, I am referring to
unproductive unity of nation and religion among Bosniaks. It seems that
the
symbiosis between the ruling party and the Islamic community is the
result of
that.
There are very few nations which were not in the past based on religion.
That
is certain. However, that connection breaks at some point. Here in
Bosnia it
is still unclear what Muslims are as a social group: are they a people,
a
nation or a religious community? What is a nation? It is the
consciousness
about existence in a certain territory. There is no such consciousness
among
Muslims in Bosnia. There is only the consciousness about religious
affiliation. Therefore the Muslims still haven't evolved from a people
into a
nation. That is most important. Therefore, if among the Muslims there is
no
consciousness about belonging to a nation, there can be no nation.
Nationhood Requires More
Are you referring to Muslims in general, or specifically Bosnian
Muslims?
Muslims in Bosnia-Hercegovina. They are still a sociological dilemma.
Their
genesis is absurd. Other nations had linear development: tribe- people-
nation. On the other hand, Muslims developed from Illyrian proselytism
to
Islam, therefore, not from a tribe. After that they passed through the
whole
Ottoman period as a religious community of Bosniaks. Today we have a
dilemma:
are we a people or a religious community? As you know, people is a
community
of similar individuals with similar world view who hail from the
collection
of similar tribes. We are not that. Muslims have totally different
history,
unlike Serbs, Croats and everyone else. Croats hail from a group of
tribes,
Serbs as well, Macedonians also; we Muslims hail from a Bogumil
religious
community, we converted into an Islamic religious community and
continued
that life during 450 years of Ottoman administration. We continued like
that
during Austria-Hungary and all our political life gravitates around
various
"Muslim organizations". All our parties are Muslim. None of them is
without
the word Muslim in its name. If that is so, then we have to at first
investigate from the sociological point of view whether Muslims are
still in
transition from a religious community or whether they have already
become a
people. They are definitively not a nation, because much more is needed
for a
nation. A nation requires consciousness about its territory, its people,
its
state and its status in certain region.
Does SDA as a ruling Bosniak party contribute to the fact that Bosniaks
are
still not a nation?
In that respect SDA is counterproductive. Because of a simple reason
that SDA
is a typical clerical party. As such it is not capable of wider
activity. SDA
above all failed to resolve the problem: what are the Muslims? SDA
transformed them into Bosniaks which is an even greater mistake. Alija
did
that against the Constitution. The constitution didn't allow him to do
it in
the way he did in 1993. Also, what are Bosniaks? It is a regional term.
I cannot agree with you. What is then our national consciousness? What
are we?
In our consciousness, we are Muslims.
But Muslims are not a nation.
That doesn't matter. No one is asking about that. We, Muslims, are still
in a
sort of a dilemma - are we transforming from a religious community into
a
nation, or are we still a religious community. That is the essence. See
how
closely the Islamic religious community and political parties
collaborate.
The president of the republic appoints reisul-ulema, they collaborate,
hold
rallies together etc. That's how it was during the old Yugoslavia. Spaho
fully collaborated with the Islamic religious community. We still
haven't
cleared up whether Muslims are a people or a religious community. As
I've
already said, they are definitely not a nation.
Plain Political Blindness
Well, then, according to you, what is the spiritual backbone of the
Bosniak
people?
Islam is the spiritual backbone of the Bosnian, i.e. Muslim people.
Don't
take me wrong, I am not a cleric. On the contrary, I am miles away from
any
sort of Islamism, but if one talks to the people, it is easy to see that
Islam connects them. The war is the best example. Let me add that this
was a
religious civil war. Mosques and churches were demolished, priests of
all
faiths destroyed... The war followed exactly that path, which means that
Bosnia-Hercegovina still hasn't matured to become a multi-religious,
multi-national and multi-ethnic state as is frequently mentioned. We are
still deeply divided. For example, in the Federation Bosnia-Hercegovina
there
are two states. Croatian HVO state and a Muslim state led supposedly by
Alija.
Wait a moment Mr. Causevic! If you say that the war in
Bosnia-Hercegovina was
a civil and a religious conflict, that suits pro-Serb assertions; in
other
words, doesn't that counter the assertion that the war was the Serb
aggression against Bosnia-Hercegovina as was even clearly defined by a
UN
resolution?
Let me tell you something. An aggression is something completely
different
from a religious and civil conflict. Don't forget the reason for this
war:
the declaration of Bosnian independence by two peoples, Croats and
Muslims.
It is the fact that Article 2 in the then Constitution of
Bosnia-Hercegovina
explicitly states: Bosnia-Hercegovina is a commonwealth of three
peoples,
Muslims, Serbs and Croats. A commonwealth cannot be dissolved by two of
the
nations, Croats and Muslims. Serbs accepted that as a cause for war.
What is
even worse (that is the greatest Alija's mistake): Bosnia-Hercegovina
was
full of Serb soldiers and he declared the independent Bosnia. Only a man
without connection to the reality could have done something like that.
You believe that he should have accepted the historical agreement with
Serbs
which was initiated by Zulfikarpasic and Filipovic?
That was, more or less, an unrealistic political move. In my opinion, we
should have accepted reality and continued our existence within the rump
Yugoslavia, while Croats could have annexed western Hercegovina. We
would
remain within Yugoslavia until the definite break up some time in the
future.
However, this way, we paid dearly. Two hundred thousands of our best
youth,
70 percents of cultural treasures destroyed... Was that worth the
present
Bosnia-Hercegovina, which we could have had both with Vance-Owen and
Owen-Stoltenberg plans? Alija signed both of those plans in 1993 once he
saw
what he got us into with the war. Politics is the art of possible, not
of
desired. And we tried to follow our desires. We wanted to establish some
sort
of an independent Bosnia-Hercegovina but that is an absurdity. Croats
could
do that because they had Western support. Slovenians especially, nobody
gave
a damn about Macedonians. Having all that in mind, we should have waited
for
an appropriate moment and then, once we got support in Europe, seceded
from
Yugoslavia.
Therefore, you would have accepted that we remain slaves within the Serb
empire?!
Above all, we would not have been slaves of any sort. Our advantage
would be
the connection via Sandzak corridor with Macedonia and Montenegro. That
is
not slavery; the talk about slavery is ordinary demagoguery. We would
simply
increase our population in Serbia and Yugoslavia and then, once we
became a
nation in the real sense of that word, we would secede from the
so-called
Yugoslavia. At that point there would not be any problems, but at the
time
when Mladic had a whole armada here and we only certain Vikic to fight a
war
against the Serbs, that was an ordinary political blindness!
Journalistic Primitivism
You are simply forcing me to ask you whether, in your opinion,
Izetbegovic's
role in history is positive or negative?
In my opinion, that Izetbegovic's action was a huge mistake (otherwise,
I
consider him to be an honest man and a friend). You know the old
Talleyrand's
wise words that a mistake is worse than a crime. And that is what Alija
did.
Why? He was surrounded by people without political experience. What can
you
expect from Behmen? Or a whole series of similar individuals? Among all
them
there was not a single person who could have said: Alija, wait a moment,
let
us see what we can achieve with the Serbs. In the end, take a look at
Oslobodenje from December 21 1991 and you'll find a speech by the
criminal
Karadzic where he says: "Wouldn't it be better if we made a
confederation of
three states: Serbs, Croats and Muslims, than to have hundreds and
hundreds
of thousands of dead, hundreds and hundreds of destroyed houses". If
you're
interested, I can show you a photocopy. That was not a prophecy, they
already
had a plan. By the way, I am the only person in Bosnia-Hercegovina who
doesn't watch TV, but that night, by chance, I was at my sister's place
and
saw that Alija sat like Rodin's thinker, alone. Croats representatives
were
standing on the other side (of course Croats had their own interests, I
understand them) and he suddenly called for a vote and all the Serb
representatives left the chamber. That was a death sentence to the
Muslims.
That's what I said to my sister; a few of my friends were also there. I
said,
this is a death sentence - December 21 1991.
You've just asserted that Izetbegovic lacks advisers with political
vision.
In that context, I must mention Demaludin Latic's article about Marko
Vesovic...
That is typical journalistic primitivism. That is a typical barbarism
with
clerical origin; Latic is a typical cleric. He and everyone in his
group.
How do you interpret the fact that after such a scathing and nationalist
attack, SDA didn't find it appropriate to react to such a spiritual
"descent"
of its important activist?
I was not surprised about SDA, because the party shares Latic's views.
Latic
is their ideologist and I find that normal. But, I can't understand why
these
Bogomils who have converted to Islam, that is the former Communists who
have
converted to Islam, turned into Bosniaks and became presidents of the
Association of Writers do not react but sit on the side and none of them
is
defending either side. They should have intervened. Latic would have
been
prosecuted anywhere in Europe for such an article.
Do such acts have elements of a crime?
They used to in the past, but do not any more. Consequently they allowed
Latic to write as he pleases. I've read his article Really Like a Vlach
:
even our journalists during Aurstria-Hungary, during their verbal war
with
Serbs, didn't write stuff like that. These are not offenses, nor
slanders, it
is a de facto attack on a whole nation, not only Vesovic.
Tell me, what do you think about Young Muslims and their activities?
Young Muslims, that is de facto an infection which came from the East.
It
arrived roughly from Iran where they wanted to form a generation of
young
people who would spread Islamic propaganda. That found a certain
response in
Bosnia-Hercegovina, with corresponding consequences. Look at those
ghosts
walking around the city ! In 21st century, in the center of Sarajevo
women
walk in those long dresses with covered faces. That is typical
Iranianism.
We, who as members of a Muslim national community should walk in step
with
Europe, are instead turning against Europe. When in 1993 I was asked why
foreigners hadn't intervened (Alija and Silajdzic were present) I said:
wait
until an appropriate amount of Muslim blood is spilled and then they
will
intervene. And that was printed as my lecture: "Anti-Islamic syndrome of
the
West against Muslims". That's what happened. Later, they came to
congratulate
me; they said, you had seen it a year and a half before.
Ajvatovica is Bogumil Holly Site
Help me to resolve a dilemma: although Islam is a universal religion, is
it
possible to speak about specific Bosnian Islam?
In general, Bosnian Islam doesn't exist. Islam is everywhere the same,
as is
Christianity. In Bosnian Islam there are a lot of traces of other
religions.
Here, Islam absorbed certain elements from Christianity, or even better,
from
Bogumils, from whom we took Ajvatovica and everything else.
You say that we accepted Ajvatovica from Bogumils?
Of course. That is a Bogumil religious site.
But that fact is totally ignored in today's political, traditional and
theological interpretation?
Remember that every religion is totalitarian. It doesn't want anything
that
belongs to someone else. That's it, all religions are totalitarian, not
only
Islam. The fact that it absorbs elements from other religions, it
couldn't
have been any different.
Do you think that a believer is morally superior to a non-believer?
In my opinion, morality is outside religion. Morality is a part of an
individual, his upbringing. If I was brought up to respect the moral
principle "love your neighbors, no matter who they are" I don't need a
religion for that. Therefore, conditionally, morality and religion do
not
have to intersect anywhere. Religion is not the only bearer of morality.
Philosophy also sets moral standards. The same can be true for politics,
if
it is real politics, although that is rare today. We know that, because
morality and politics often follow different paths.
I've read somewhere that only Bosnian Muslims have the institution of
reisul-ulema. Is that true?
Reisul-ulema dates from Austria-Hungary. During the Ottomans we had a
mufti
who was subordinate to the caliph in Carigrad [Istanbul]. However,
Austria
was much smarter, it tried to protect its interests. It wanted to
separate
the Muslims from the caliph. Therefore, they established a separate
religious
community lead by reisul-ulema from 1881. Reisul-ulema means the head of
ulema, the head of theologians. That how that was established and that
institution continued until today.
As far as I know, you deny legitimacy to reis-effendi Ceric. Why?
Reis Ceric has without doubt very good qualifications and was educated
both
in the East and the West. But he, in my opinion, I don't how he allowed
that
to happen, allowed that Alija appoint him for a naibu-reis, that is an
acting
reis. Beforehand, Alija had appointed ten individuals in the Assembly of
the
Islamic Community. But it is the tradition among the Muslims that the
Assembly must be elected. Alija appointed 10 of his men and they elected
Ceric for naibu-reis. Only a few month later, naibu-reis summoned his
five
muftis and told them: it would be good if you proclaimed me a
reisul-ulema.
And that's how he became the reis.
You don't accept that the conditions at the time demanded certain
irregular
interventions?
Not at all. For example, during WWII we didn't have a reis. There was
only
naibu-reis, a very learned man Salih Safvet effendi Basic, a professor
at the
Theology faculty. He was naibu-reis until the arrival of the Partisans
and
even a few years after that. Then, the Partisans used their methods to
form
the Assembly of the Islamic Community which, like it or not,
legitimately
elected new reis Fejic. And that's how it went until our days, until
Ceric's
election. I am surprised that Alija could have made such a mistake. But,
let
me repeat that Ceric is a learned man.
(...)
In your opinion, what is the reason for the conflict between Rijaset and
Ilmija?
Probably personal relations. That's worst among us. Both in the Islamic
Community leadership and in politics. These people demonstrated that
they
cannot accept Ceric's hasty political views and that they want to assert
separate identity as Muslims and continue to work as believers only. On
the
other hand, Ceric wants to sit in the first rows at the SDA party
congress.
That's trouble. He doesn't know that his photos are printed in papers. I
have
at least five articles of that sort. Please, Ajvatovica is the best
example:
Alija delivers a political speech, Ceric leads a prayer. I asked Alija:
where
was your brain, buddy? - I am his senior and can talk to him like that -
how
could you be so stupid? Ajvatovica is a religious event and you can go
there
as a believer, not to deliver political speeches. And Ceric could have
[delivered a speech].
State of Serb Soldiers
I would appreciate if you could answer several questions of legal and
political nature. Does Bosnia-Hercegovina exist as a state?
Speaking openly against all existing trends in politics,
Bosnia-Hercegovina
doesn't any more legally exist as a state. It is a confederation of the
Federation B-H and the Republic of Srpska. Only a little "legal feel" in
the
constitutional law is required to see that the Dayton Agreement cut
Bosnia-Hercegovina in two. However, that is not a terrible thing. When I
asked Alija's lawyers what sort of a state we were they replied: well,
we'll
see that during the evolution. That doesn't work. What are we now? Are
we an
empire, kingdom, or something third? If you say a confederation, then we
are
not a state. The confederation consists of two states which act together
in
some spheres. Take for example the Dayton Agreement, Article 2 or 3 (if
I'm
not mistaken): Bosnia-Hercegovina authorities are in charge of customs
etc.
All together six or seven spheres of activity. Everything else that is
not
listed in that article is under jurisdiction of the entities. Therefore,
these are two states. That's the way it was in Austria-Hungary. There
were
four or five common spheres: emperor and king, ministry of foreign
affairs,
ministry of finance and a few others, and everything else was under
Austrian
or Hungarian jurisdiction. You know, Austria-Hungary was a classic
example of
a confederation.
Are you concerned that Bosnia-Hercegovina could, like the
Austrian-Hungarian
confederation, fail as a historical product?
Any state can disappear. Therefore, Bosnia-Hercegovina can survive or
disappear as well. The Dayton Agreement divided us into two parts. In my
opinion, that is a superior trick which has split Bosnia-Hercegovina in
an
elegant way and made its ruin in the future inevitable.
Why are you such a pessimist?
I am not a pessimist; I only try to be realistic about the current
situation.
If someone convinces me that Bosnia-Hercegovina, the Federation and the
Republic of Srpska will stay together I will eat my words. What is the
Republic of Srpska in relation to the Federation? The Federation which
has,
it is terrible to say, 10 cantons, that's unbelievable, on 23,000 square
kilometers. A huge bureaucratic apparatus on one and the Republic of
Srpska
on the other side. I am not a pessimist; if someone can convince me that
all
of this will somehow merge in the future, I'll shake his hand and
apologize.
What if Bosnia-Hercegovina is placed under a foreign protectorate?
In that case it is hard to predict how long it would last and what its
goals
would be. There is already a de facto protectorate, and a legal
protectorate,
if introduced, would be the best solution for all three peoples,
although the
Serbs would be unbelievably angry. Croats would be a bit less angry and
we
Muslims wouldn't be angry at all. In my opinion Bosnia-Hercegovina can
only
survive under some sort of de facto or legal protectorate. When was
Bosnia-Hercegovina whole while left to itself? Never. The Ottomans held
it in
their hands, Austria-Hungary as well. As soon as the Kingdom of Serbs,
Croats
and Slovenes arrived Bosnia-Hercegovina begun to break into regions and
split
into two parts in 1939. One part drifted towards Serbia and the other
towards
Croatia. Therefore, under the rule of its own people, Bosnia-Hercegovina
must
break up. That is inevitable. Socialism held Bosnia forcefully in its
hands.
Doesn't the political existence of the medieval Bosnian state contradict
you?
Medieval Bosnia was a united Bosnia. There were no Serbs nor Croats
neither
Catholics nor Orthodox. It was the land of good Bosniaks.
Do you think, as a lawyer, that Bosnia-Hercegovina can win its suit
against
Serbia at the International Justice Court in the Hague?
If they win that case then Europe and the whole world would jump into
their
own belly. First, it must be proven where the aggression is and what it
is.
An aggression is an attack of one state on another. Where is the other
state
here?
Well, now you're making me mad. Serbia attacked us!
Serbia attacked who?
Bosnia-Hercegovina
Bosnia-Hercegovina didn't exist at the time.
How come, when we were recognized by the United Nations on April 6 1992?
Recognition still doesn't mean that a state exists. It also has to exist
in
practice. Bosnia didn't exist in practice. There was only a state of
Serb
soldiers.
I do not agree with you. Legally, Bosnia-Hercegovina was in 1992 a state
and
that is objectively enough for the existence of an aggression.
Legally, Bosnia-Hercegovina could have been recognized by as many states
as
you please. NDH was recognized by more than 30 states. A state, in order
to
be a state, must have three basic elements: territory, people and
government.
Bosnia-Hercegovina had none of the three elements. The state authorities
only
had control of Sarajevo and a few more cities.
So, you claim there was no aggression on Bosnia-Hercegovina?
Of course. This was a religious and civil conflict provoked by Alija's
imprudent actions. We had a chance to agree with Serbs and Croats and
divide
Bosnia into three parts so that it still remained whole in some way. As
a
confederation. What now? We paid with over 200,000 young lives, 70
percent of
our cultural heritage was destroyed and what do we have in the end? A
ruined
Bosnia divided into two parts.
Islam was Everywhere
Could you explain your sentence that religious nationalism is the main
factor
in the downfall of Bosnia-Hercegovina?
There is no real nationalism in our country. Religious nationalism de
facto
does not represent real nationalism but a reflection of religious
feelings.
Religious wars are the worst wars in the history of humanity. Such wars
took
place in Bosnia in the past. Please, could you have imagined that
someone
destroys our mosque and that we destroy someone's church? It is enough
to see
that and to know the character of the war. The goal was to destroy
symbols of
other religions.
It sounds as though you fully agree with Huntington and his theory about
clash of civilizations?
Well, he is almost right, although I do not want to apply a general
theory to
Bosnia. Bosnia is specific in its historical development. It is a state
with
three religions and, if you will, three peoples which were kept together
under the secret or open protectorate of external factors. Socialism was
a
protectorate over Bosnia.
You mean, a socialist protectorate?
Let it be socialist. But, let's say at that time you tried to destroy a
church or a mosque. That was a crime, punishable by 10 years in jail.
Did Islam do better in Communism or now when SDA is in power?
It is difficult to make such a comparison. It is the fact that after 45
years
of socialism Islam floated to the surface like Catholicism and Eastern
Orthodox Christianity. It is hard to destroy a religion. It is something
superhuman. The most important thing is that today we witness a new wave
of
Islamization as in 1463. Then Bogumils, after the arrival of the Turks,
en
masse converted to Islam. Today we have the same situation: mass
conversion
of Communists to Islam.
Has the participation of Islam in public life been beneficial or not?
Islam wasn't hidden under Communism. It was everywhere. Among
intellectuals,
individuals etc. It existed as a tradition in even the most orthodox
Communists. I know of such ministers, I have talked to them. When you
talk to
them, you can see their tradition lurking somewhere in the background,
regardless whether he is a Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Muslim.
Religious
tradition cannot be destroyed, and today when all the restrictions are
gone,
suddenly all of that has come to the surface. Islam reappeared from
those
intellectuals who supported different ideology; they were joined by
educated
Islamic priests.
I have a feeling that the International Community, lately, in order to
achieve reconciliation of peoples in Bosnia-Hercegovina, is increasingly
promoting senseless and unjust theory about equal guilt. What do you
think
about that?
In my opinion, that theory will be rejected by Serbs, Croats and
everyone
else in Bosnia. I think that we should seek a different idea which will,
if
we want that, connect us.
Do you believe in the existence of such an idea?
I don't know. It is difficult to find it at this point. After blood was
spilt
in Bosnia, it is hard to say, let us live together again. That will take
time
and I think that the West is correctly approaching that problem: they
are
holding Bosnia under a protectorate and will continue to do so until a
new
generation which will have forgotten everything, is mature. That is the
only
way. Otherwise, such a tragedy cannot be forgotten.
-
Last Days of "Paradise"
Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, January 19 1998
by Dzenana Karup
During the war and several months into the post-war period, the village
of
Guca Gora was one of the main Mojahedeen bases in Bosnia. Bosniak
refugees,
who started to move into this village in 1993, say that about 300
foreign
Muslim warriors used to live there. The leader of this group was
renowned Abu
Hamza, the man for whom the Federal Police has been searching
unsuccessfully.
Dani visited Guca Gora and in a conversation with the locals learnt the
cruel
truth about "Arab totalitarianism" that suffocated their Bosnian soul
and the
right to live according to Bosnian laws. In this case, Mojahedeen were
not
fabricated by the western media: this is an unwritten story about a
reign of
terror that resulted in destroyed Bosnian youths who are trying to come
to
their senses in the prison in Zenica after months and years of training
according to Hamza's "rules of the game". In Guca Gora, there are no
more
Mojahedeen.
The village of Guca Gora, ten kilometers from Travnik, was the main
stronghold of Abu Hamza and his people for more than three years.
Immediately
after their arrival they imposed their lifestyle and introduced "Arab"
laws.
In practice that meant, recall the locals, that all of them had to
regularly
attend prayers [or "do namaz"; done five times a day, one of religious
duties
in Islam] and in "the Arab" way (every namaz consists of four rekjats),
women
had to be covered, children as well, swearing was not allowed and
contact
with kafirs [unbelievers] (Serbs or Croats) was also forbidden. No one
dared
contradict the chief of the village, Hamza. His men issued orders and
threats, beat up people, and basically introduced a reign of terror "in
the
name of Allah". They kept repeating that there were following Allah's
way.
They succeeded in their intentions for two reasons: fear and hunger. The
locals complied to avoid "disappearance" and to feed their children.
"For $100 and regular monthly assistance our children would leave front
lines
and switch to their unit," says an elderly man who still does not
understand
how come no one in the Army reacted to that type of desertion, although
an
autonomous and independent brigade was later formed from those youths
and
Mojahedeen. "I've never seen them fight anywhere. I respect the fighters
from
El-Mujaheed, I fought next to them, but these... It was obvious that
they
came here with a different goal," says one of the locals who is still
afraid
to reveal his name to journalists. The need to stay anonymous is a
general
characteristic in Guca Gora. These Bosniaks can hardly say a word. They
still
remember Hamza's men armed to the teeth with bombs, sniper rifles,
shoulder
held rocket launchers... The locals would rather be killed than
photographed.
Seventy-year-old grandmother, who used to be Hamza's next door neighbor
says:
"I would gladly tell you everything about that but he is not human, he
is a
devil. Look, even now, they caught everyone except for him. If he saw my
name
or picture in a newspaper he would immediately slaughter me." Her
neighbor,
shaking his head, adds: "They have a lot of followers. And who knows,
maybe
Hamza and the two Arabs who are still on the loose are still in the
area.
They know this area really well. They have lived here with us for
years."
The Place of Jihad
This was a Croat village before the war. Most of the Bosniaks who today
live
in Guca Gora settled there after Arabs, who told them that all the
houses in
the village were their because they had liberated them. Hence, the
refugees
had to ask for a permission to move to the village and the Arabs would
decide
who was to live where. A refugee from Jajce, one of the first arrivals
(even
today, most of the inhabitants of Guca Gora are originally from Jajce)
remembers that period: "There were about 300 of them. They kept coming
and
leaving. About 50 Arabs used to live here with women and children. We
have
recognized on TV all those caught by our Police. I do not know their
names,
they were difficult to pronounce and remember. We called them Arabs. The
first thing they did in the village was to build a mosque in a converted
Croat stable. They did namaz there, while they kept bones of the pigs
they
had killed upon the arrival to the village on the first floor.
Everything,
all the main meetings, took place in the mosque."
Arabs told the locals that they were invited to Bosnia-Hercegovina to
fight.
To the question about who invited them, one local replies: "That's what
we
wanted to know as well. They said: ' Alija Izetbegovic. Exactly like
Karadzic
invited Russians'." These men, says one of the locals who were in close
contact with them, were cheated. They were promised houses and land in
Bosnia. "Most of them had not lived in Arab countries before the arrival
to
Bosnia. They said that they go wherever there is Jihad. Most of them
were not
true Muslims, but converted Christians. There were even a few converted
Jews.
Hamza told me that. Once, I heard one of them call on prayer and I found
it
suspicious that he made many pauses and had trouble with pronunciation.
I
found out that he was born Roman Catholic. Hamza is a real Muslim, born
in
Tunisia. However, he left Tunisia nine years ago. I asked him why he did
not
return to his country and he replied that he would immediately be
killed. I
did not dare ask any more questions."
The most important task of the Arabs, as they emphasized themselves, was
to
recruit young Bosniaks to their ranks. After various courses to which
they
were sent, these young men would become religious fanatics and would
reject
their own parents "in the name of Allah". They would tell everyone that
only
they were right and everyone else was wrong. An elderly woman, who
regularly
attended Hamza's mosque ("I had to, I had nothing to eat"), remembers
that he
once said: "There are about 25,000 Arabs in Bosnia. Now we only need to
recruit as many Bosnians and then we shall form a Corps. The Army of
Bosnia-Hercegovina will then see who we are. We shall rule Bosnia. You
will
have to cover yourself. If you refuse, we shall kill you." This woman is
covered but, as the majority of Bosnian elderly women, only with a
kerchief
tied below her neck, and that was not sufficient. The elderly woman has
this
to say about Hamza's success in his intention to "recruit young men":
"They've misled the people. Look at them now, the prison is full of
them.
Hamza's Army!"
Halal Only to Bosnia
The only person who openly talks about everything that took place in
Guca
Gora is Mustafa Pracalic. Born in 1948 in Jajce, he came to Guca Gora
with a
wife and two sons in 1993. "That was a huge mistake," he says in a quiet
voice. Mustafa's son Samir was arrested in recent actions of the Police
together with other Arab terrorists and domestic Mojahedeen. Pracalic
says
that Samir participated three months ago in an abduction of a car with a
young man and a woman, both Croats. A youth from Namila and an Arab were
jailed together with Samir because of the same act.
"This is a huge shame for me," Mustafa continues with downcast eyes.
"This is
a strong comparison, but when my younger son was killed in Jajce, he was
16.
I placed him with my own hands in a grave. However, this was much more
difficult." Hamza, claims Pracalic, managed to take his son away from
home
when he was only 18. "I know that my son is guilty, but is his guilt the
same
as theirs? I do not want to meddle in judicial matters but the main
organizer
lived here for three years and no one touched him nor knew anything
about his
intentions. I cannot understand that. I served for four years in the
Army and
I did that for Bosnia, no one else. But inside me, there was a worse war
against the Arabs, than the one fought on the front lines. They wanted
to
take my younger son away as well. Fortunately, he was still a minor and
I
could control him. I couldn't do anything with the elder son, he was
already
an adult." Mustafa Prcalic went several times to the Police, wrote
complaints, tried to warn about what was going on, but: "No one
listened, and
on few occasions they even refused to see me at the Police station. The
Arabs
recruited youths aged 18 to 20, those who were the easiest to mislead. I
cannot accept that to this day. That could have been prevented. These
people
should have been controlled and someone should have paid attention to
who
deals with our youth."
About the crime of his son Samir he says the following: "An Arab with a
long
beard came together with a covered woman and asked for Samir. Hamza had
already left the village and I was hoping that they would leave Samir
alone.
However, the Arab said that he was the new chief of their organization
in the
Balkans and that he wanted to give Samir some packages, left over from
the
previous year". They really brought the packages. "They were bringing
all
sorts of stuff for full two days: meat, flour..." Months before that
Samir
had to wear his grandmother's shoes because he had no money. He left
with the
Arab and was gone for five days. "That's when it happened. Later he
showed up
in new shoes and clothing and I asked him where he got that. He said: 'I
found a job. I traveled with my new boss all over Bosnia. We found
humanitarian aid that was hidden by others'." That evening there were
news on
the TV that unknown attackers had abducted a car with Croats. Two days
later,
Samir was arrested. His wife said that in jail Samir confessed to
everything
and that Arabs would kill him when he gets out.
"Hamza is not a man, he is a terrorist"
His parents could not have contact with Samir from the time he joined
the
Arabs. He was immediately sent to Zenica to some sort of their school.
His
mother went to visit him. When she returned, she said: "Our Samir is
gone."
Mustafa remembers his son's return: "He was a totally different child.
He
could not hold a normal conversation any more. He became extremely
religious,
a fanatic. Even I had to be careful about what I said in front of him.
The
training took 45 days. I asked him what they had done there. He said
that
there had been a TV and that they had watched the real truth. And they
watched programs about the war in Afganistan and struggle on the way of
Allah." After this, the Arabs sent Samir for 45 days to practical
military
training to Orasac. And then his wife went to ders, which is what they
called
training for women, also in Orasac. When she came back she was wrapped
in
black from her head to the toes. She couldn't talk to any males, not
even
with Samir's father and brother. Mustafa told to his wife: "This is what
Hamza has brought to us. As soon as Samir joined them, Hamza married
him.
Hamza conducted the ceremony himself, in a religious manner, according
to
sharia. How can Hamza marry someone when only imams can do that!?
However, he
conducted marriages and convinced children that it had to be done that
way."
The Arabs tried to send Samir to Saudi Arabia and gave him money to
obtain
the necessary documents. When his father found out he managed to prevent
that. Mustafa was afraid that Samir would be later sent to Afganistan or
to a
different war.
Besides, the story about Samir's recruitment reveals that the Arabs are
very
skillful in that. First they "work" on the parents. When they tried to
prevent the departure of "the misguided son" Hamza began to visit the
house
with threats - since they were against "the followers of Allah". Mustafa
has
numerous examples for what these followers were like and what they did.
Here
is one of them: "They were trying to convince my wife to leave her job
with
the Bosnian Army. They said that they would give her every month 50kg of
flour and aid packages, if only she stopped feeding bandits. I guess I
am a
bandit too, since I fought with that army."
Mustafa is not the only person who had problems because of disagreement
with
the Arabs. The collective tragedy of Guca Gora spread from the young to
the
old, although the former were in a more difficult position as is
illustrated
by "the village-dance case" told by several people in the tape-recorder
of
this journalist: "Hamza is not a man, he is a terrorist. Once, a dance
was
organized in the neighboring village of Krpeljica. Young people gathered
to
have some fun. The Arabs found out and went there. They chased everyone
away,
broke all the musical instruments, wounded a girl and beat up one of the
men
so badly that he suffered concussions. Both he and the girl ended up in
a
hospital: she was released after a treatment, but the boy had to stay in
the
hospital. The following day, Hamza went to the hospital, threw him out
of the
bed and chased him home, claiming that he was fine. The director of the
hospital and the Police were there. Why did not they intervene?"
Hamza and his followers are gone. During the last year, Hamza visited
the
village several times. During the summer, he had a house built for
himself in
the village of Kokici, near a dense forest, so that he could easily
escape if
SFOR attacks him. Several young men from Guca Gora helped Hamza to build
the
house, although they claim that they did that for money rather than
because
of ideological reasons. The Police was at the time looking for Hamza.
The
quality of their search is indicated by the fact that the mentioned men
were
not even questioned about Hamza's whereabouts. The men did not make an
effort
to turn Hamza in. In Guca Gora, there are no Mujahedeen any more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Be Good With IFOR and Die
Hamza's men especially hated members of the international armed forces.
Because of that, every villager who would show good will toward IFOR
soldiers
would risk getting in trouble. The Pracalic family had problems because
of
that as well. One day, five foreign soldiers and a translator passed by
Mustafa's house and asked for a coffee. Mujahedeen were sitting across
the
street and watching all of that. When the soldiers left one of them took
out
a knife and shouted to Mustafa: "I am going to slaughter you tonight."
To
Mustafa's question why, he responded: "What are kafirs doing in front of
your
house?" After that threat Fikreta Prcalic, Mustafa's wife, went to visit
her
mother. The mentioned Mojahedeen spit at her and told her: "Kafir woman,
you
are walking around uncovered and are letting other kafirs enter your
house,"
and they threatened her mother: "We shall kill your daughter." The poor
woman
asked them: "Totally?" to which they responded "Totally". Fortunately,
the
threat was not fulfilled.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Story About Sara
Mojahedeen married Bosniak girls. When the Police began looking for
them,
those who were not caught escaped. All of them left wives and children
behind. Who is going to feed them now, wonder the villagers. Hamza has
four
children. His wife lives somewhere near Zenica. However, not all of them
found wives in Bosnia. Some of them brought wives with them. Jusuf, one
of
them, came from the Netherlands and brought a wife, Sara, an American of
Croatian origin. Namely, Sara's father left Croatia long time ago and
emigrated to the USA, where Sara was born. However, while he was with
the
military in the Netherlands he liked it so much that he brought his
family
over to Europe. Sara told the women from the village that aged 12 she
left
her family and became a vagrant. Somewhat later she met Jusuf who
converted
her to Islam and married her. She had been married for nine years before
coming to Bosnia. Aged 19, she had an enviable experience as a
homemaker. In
Bosnia, she gave birth to her first child. Before converting to Islam,
Jusuf
was a Jew and is Sara's senior by 20 years.
One of the women from the village told us this about Sara: "Hamza
recruited
his next door neighbor and another refugee to work on the reconstruction
of
the school. He told them to take soil from Jusuf's yard. It was about
noon. I
was cooking when something little appeared at the door. I only saw a
gun: it
was Sara. She said she was going to shoot. I said: 'Why do you want to
kill
me, what have I done to you!' She said that she was going to kill two
men,
next to her house. I said 'Who is going to come close to your Arab house
at
this time, when they don't dare get near it even at night?' We got out,
I
first, she behind me. Fortunately, all the men were in the mosque. She
pointed out baked soil that someone had been taking away. I said, 'Sara,
it's
not their fault. Hamza ordered them to fix the school.' I was shaking.
As
soon as the prayer finished, I hurried and found those two guys. I
called
them: 'Alaga, Mujo, why did you go in on your own? Sara was going to
shoot
you!'"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Alagic a Target
Forty year old refugee from Jajce told us this story: "Alija and Tudman
agreed to from a federation. But the Mojahedeen did not like that.
Everything
turned to better, Bosniak forces were liberating Bosnia. One night I
went to
Hamza's house and his wife, Halima, skinny and hardly taller than a yard
[literally "a yard and a razor blade tall"], told me: 'If I knew at what
time
Alagic [Bosnian Army General] passes through the village (towards a
Roman
Catholic monastery that was guarded by the Bosnian Army, auth. rem.) I
would
kill him myself'. I told her: 'You would kill Alagic! You can't even
walk
around your own house.' I also asked her why Alagic bothered her. She
said:
'He advocates inter-ethnic tolerance'. I saw where this was going and
shut
up." By the way, according to this woman, out of spite, during the worst
fighting in Komar, Hamza pulled young men from the front with an excuse
that
they had to go to the mosque or to prepare for school in Zenica: "May
devil
destroy both them and their Arab school! What have they brought to
Bosnia!"
--------- COORDINAMENTO ROMANO PER LA JUGOSLAVIA -----------
RIMSKI SAVEZ ZA JUGOSLAVIJU
e-mail: crj@... - URL: http://marx2001.org/crj
http://www.egroups.com/group/crj-mailinglist/
------------------------------------------------------------
* Last Days of "Paradise" (Dani, 1998)
"Dani" e' una rivista bosniaco-musulmana di tendenza laicista, legata
alla lobby "Open Society" di Soros: http://www.bhdani.com/
I testi in inglese sono stati distribuiti sulla lista
STOP NATO: ¡NO PASARAN! - HTTP://WWW.STOPNATO.COM
Used without permission, for "fair use" only
-
Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, November 24 1997
Interview with Halid Causevic, by Nerzuk Curak
Halid Causevic is a brilliant colocutor. It is hard to agree with a
large
number of his scientific and political theses (even absolutely
impossible
with some) but his methodology and elaboration of the claims is
convincing
and devoid of any hypocrisy. This liberal Bosnian intellectual, who
likes to
say for himself that he is only a journalist whose field of interest is
mostly related to the sociology of religion and constitutional law, in
the
exclusive interview for Dani, the first one after several years of
silence,
talks about president Izetbegovic, SDA, Latic, reis Ceris, relationship
between Islamic community and the ruling party... In the legal analysis
of
the current situation in Bosnia-Hercegovina, a son of distinguished reis
Dzemaludin Causevic doesn't flinch from stating a politically and
legally
indefensible claim: the war in Bosnia-Hercegovina was a religious and
civil
war and not an aggression.
Mr. Causevic, in the past you were among the closest friends of Mr.
Izetbegovic, but in the mean time your political views have dramatically
diverged. Why?
It's very simple: I was and remain Izetbegovic's friend because of a
simple
reason that we were colleagues. We saw each other in meetings, but I
could
never accept his views. For example, he was an orthodox Muslim, actually
a
Muslim who goes beyond orthodoxy, while I have always viewed the whole
thing
fairly liberally. Because of that our friendship was pretty cool. We saw
each
other, talked, but we never touched upon those topics which would have
been
interesting for him, and that is Islamization of [Bosnian] Muslims. That
was
out of question because he knew that my views on that topic are
extremely
liberal. Especially after I read his Islamic Declaration, which is
fundamentally unacceptable; even before the war I told him: Alija, what
are
you doing? With such actions we won't get anywhere in Europe. Simply, at
some
point, we'll be thrown out of the small piece of Europe where we live
today.
That's the point.
How did Izetbegovic react to those words?
He said: that is my view and I cannot change my opinion. That was years
ago
and I don't remember his exact words but that was the gist of what he
said.
Later, when I received his manuscript Islam between East and West for
review
from Gazi Husrev Bey's library, I almost fainted. Perhaps you already
know
about this: his attitude was that Islam must place its economic policy
between capitalism and current socialist doctrine. I met him after that,
next
to the Car's bridge and said: Alija, do you understand that there is no
doctrine in Islam? Which religion has its doctrine? Catholic church
established its social catholicism and what happened to it? The economic
doctrine follows its direction and it doesn't have respect for religion,
nor
a man, nothing and nobody. It has its direction and he (Izetbegovic,
author's
remark) believes that zakat, i.e. alms, should be interpolated between
capitalism and socialism. Then, I told him: do you know what zakat is?
According to Islam that is two percent of capital in circulation and
gold
reserves. In that case we would walk hungry, the state couldn't exist.
Does
Saudi Arabia use that system? Of course not, he responded, we would have
to
experiment. There are no experiments in economics. The economics has its
strict rules and if you tell me that zakat is the economics of Islam,
you
should know that I would recommend against the publication of your book.
And
it wasn't published in Gazi Husrev Bey's library. During the war, it was
published by "Svjetlost" and, to tell the truth, I didn't have money to
buy
it.
It seems Mr. Causevic, that we are witnessing some social processes
which, in
my opinion, are counterproductive. When I say that, I am referring to
unproductive unity of nation and religion among Bosniaks. It seems that
the
symbiosis between the ruling party and the Islamic community is the
result of
that.
There are very few nations which were not in the past based on religion.
That
is certain. However, that connection breaks at some point. Here in
Bosnia it
is still unclear what Muslims are as a social group: are they a people,
a
nation or a religious community? What is a nation? It is the
consciousness
about existence in a certain territory. There is no such consciousness
among
Muslims in Bosnia. There is only the consciousness about religious
affiliation. Therefore the Muslims still haven't evolved from a people
into a
nation. That is most important. Therefore, if among the Muslims there is
no
consciousness about belonging to a nation, there can be no nation.
Nationhood Requires More
Are you referring to Muslims in general, or specifically Bosnian
Muslims?
Muslims in Bosnia-Hercegovina. They are still a sociological dilemma.
Their
genesis is absurd. Other nations had linear development: tribe- people-
nation. On the other hand, Muslims developed from Illyrian proselytism
to
Islam, therefore, not from a tribe. After that they passed through the
whole
Ottoman period as a religious community of Bosniaks. Today we have a
dilemma:
are we a people or a religious community? As you know, people is a
community
of similar individuals with similar world view who hail from the
collection
of similar tribes. We are not that. Muslims have totally different
history,
unlike Serbs, Croats and everyone else. Croats hail from a group of
tribes,
Serbs as well, Macedonians also; we Muslims hail from a Bogumil
religious
community, we converted into an Islamic religious community and
continued
that life during 450 years of Ottoman administration. We continued like
that
during Austria-Hungary and all our political life gravitates around
various
"Muslim organizations". All our parties are Muslim. None of them is
without
the word Muslim in its name. If that is so, then we have to at first
investigate from the sociological point of view whether Muslims are
still in
transition from a religious community or whether they have already
become a
people. They are definitively not a nation, because much more is needed
for a
nation. A nation requires consciousness about its territory, its people,
its
state and its status in certain region.
Does SDA as a ruling Bosniak party contribute to the fact that Bosniaks
are
still not a nation?
In that respect SDA is counterproductive. Because of a simple reason
that SDA
is a typical clerical party. As such it is not capable of wider
activity. SDA
above all failed to resolve the problem: what are the Muslims? SDA
transformed them into Bosniaks which is an even greater mistake. Alija
did
that against the Constitution. The constitution didn't allow him to do
it in
the way he did in 1993. Also, what are Bosniaks? It is a regional term.
I cannot agree with you. What is then our national consciousness? What
are we?
In our consciousness, we are Muslims.
But Muslims are not a nation.
That doesn't matter. No one is asking about that. We, Muslims, are still
in a
sort of a dilemma - are we transforming from a religious community into
a
nation, or are we still a religious community. That is the essence. See
how
closely the Islamic religious community and political parties
collaborate.
The president of the republic appoints reisul-ulema, they collaborate,
hold
rallies together etc. That's how it was during the old Yugoslavia. Spaho
fully collaborated with the Islamic religious community. We still
haven't
cleared up whether Muslims are a people or a religious community. As
I've
already said, they are definitely not a nation.
Plain Political Blindness
Well, then, according to you, what is the spiritual backbone of the
Bosniak
people?
Islam is the spiritual backbone of the Bosnian, i.e. Muslim people.
Don't
take me wrong, I am not a cleric. On the contrary, I am miles away from
any
sort of Islamism, but if one talks to the people, it is easy to see that
Islam connects them. The war is the best example. Let me add that this
was a
religious civil war. Mosques and churches were demolished, priests of
all
faiths destroyed... The war followed exactly that path, which means that
Bosnia-Hercegovina still hasn't matured to become a multi-religious,
multi-national and multi-ethnic state as is frequently mentioned. We are
still deeply divided. For example, in the Federation Bosnia-Hercegovina
there
are two states. Croatian HVO state and a Muslim state led supposedly by
Alija.
Wait a moment Mr. Causevic! If you say that the war in
Bosnia-Hercegovina was
a civil and a religious conflict, that suits pro-Serb assertions; in
other
words, doesn't that counter the assertion that the war was the Serb
aggression against Bosnia-Hercegovina as was even clearly defined by a
UN
resolution?
Let me tell you something. An aggression is something completely
different
from a religious and civil conflict. Don't forget the reason for this
war:
the declaration of Bosnian independence by two peoples, Croats and
Muslims.
It is the fact that Article 2 in the then Constitution of
Bosnia-Hercegovina
explicitly states: Bosnia-Hercegovina is a commonwealth of three
peoples,
Muslims, Serbs and Croats. A commonwealth cannot be dissolved by two of
the
nations, Croats and Muslims. Serbs accepted that as a cause for war.
What is
even worse (that is the greatest Alija's mistake): Bosnia-Hercegovina
was
full of Serb soldiers and he declared the independent Bosnia. Only a man
without connection to the reality could have done something like that.
You believe that he should have accepted the historical agreement with
Serbs
which was initiated by Zulfikarpasic and Filipovic?
That was, more or less, an unrealistic political move. In my opinion, we
should have accepted reality and continued our existence within the rump
Yugoslavia, while Croats could have annexed western Hercegovina. We
would
remain within Yugoslavia until the definite break up some time in the
future.
However, this way, we paid dearly. Two hundred thousands of our best
youth,
70 percents of cultural treasures destroyed... Was that worth the
present
Bosnia-Hercegovina, which we could have had both with Vance-Owen and
Owen-Stoltenberg plans? Alija signed both of those plans in 1993 once he
saw
what he got us into with the war. Politics is the art of possible, not
of
desired. And we tried to follow our desires. We wanted to establish some
sort
of an independent Bosnia-Hercegovina but that is an absurdity. Croats
could
do that because they had Western support. Slovenians especially, nobody
gave
a damn about Macedonians. Having all that in mind, we should have waited
for
an appropriate moment and then, once we got support in Europe, seceded
from
Yugoslavia.
Therefore, you would have accepted that we remain slaves within the Serb
empire?!
Above all, we would not have been slaves of any sort. Our advantage
would be
the connection via Sandzak corridor with Macedonia and Montenegro. That
is
not slavery; the talk about slavery is ordinary demagoguery. We would
simply
increase our population in Serbia and Yugoslavia and then, once we
became a
nation in the real sense of that word, we would secede from the
so-called
Yugoslavia. At that point there would not be any problems, but at the
time
when Mladic had a whole armada here and we only certain Vikic to fight a
war
against the Serbs, that was an ordinary political blindness!
Journalistic Primitivism
You are simply forcing me to ask you whether, in your opinion,
Izetbegovic's
role in history is positive or negative?
In my opinion, that Izetbegovic's action was a huge mistake (otherwise,
I
consider him to be an honest man and a friend). You know the old
Talleyrand's
wise words that a mistake is worse than a crime. And that is what Alija
did.
Why? He was surrounded by people without political experience. What can
you
expect from Behmen? Or a whole series of similar individuals? Among all
them
there was not a single person who could have said: Alija, wait a moment,
let
us see what we can achieve with the Serbs. In the end, take a look at
Oslobodenje from December 21 1991 and you'll find a speech by the
criminal
Karadzic where he says: "Wouldn't it be better if we made a
confederation of
three states: Serbs, Croats and Muslims, than to have hundreds and
hundreds
of thousands of dead, hundreds and hundreds of destroyed houses". If
you're
interested, I can show you a photocopy. That was not a prophecy, they
already
had a plan. By the way, I am the only person in Bosnia-Hercegovina who
doesn't watch TV, but that night, by chance, I was at my sister's place
and
saw that Alija sat like Rodin's thinker, alone. Croats representatives
were
standing on the other side (of course Croats had their own interests, I
understand them) and he suddenly called for a vote and all the Serb
representatives left the chamber. That was a death sentence to the
Muslims.
That's what I said to my sister; a few of my friends were also there. I
said,
this is a death sentence - December 21 1991.
You've just asserted that Izetbegovic lacks advisers with political
vision.
In that context, I must mention Demaludin Latic's article about Marko
Vesovic...
That is typical journalistic primitivism. That is a typical barbarism
with
clerical origin; Latic is a typical cleric. He and everyone in his
group.
How do you interpret the fact that after such a scathing and nationalist
attack, SDA didn't find it appropriate to react to such a spiritual
"descent"
of its important activist?
I was not surprised about SDA, because the party shares Latic's views.
Latic
is their ideologist and I find that normal. But, I can't understand why
these
Bogomils who have converted to Islam, that is the former Communists who
have
converted to Islam, turned into Bosniaks and became presidents of the
Association of Writers do not react but sit on the side and none of them
is
defending either side. They should have intervened. Latic would have
been
prosecuted anywhere in Europe for such an article.
Do such acts have elements of a crime?
They used to in the past, but do not any more. Consequently they allowed
Latic to write as he pleases. I've read his article Really Like a Vlach
:
even our journalists during Aurstria-Hungary, during their verbal war
with
Serbs, didn't write stuff like that. These are not offenses, nor
slanders, it
is a de facto attack on a whole nation, not only Vesovic.
Tell me, what do you think about Young Muslims and their activities?
Young Muslims, that is de facto an infection which came from the East.
It
arrived roughly from Iran where they wanted to form a generation of
young
people who would spread Islamic propaganda. That found a certain
response in
Bosnia-Hercegovina, with corresponding consequences. Look at those
ghosts
walking around the city ! In 21st century, in the center of Sarajevo
women
walk in those long dresses with covered faces. That is typical
Iranianism.
We, who as members of a Muslim national community should walk in step
with
Europe, are instead turning against Europe. When in 1993 I was asked why
foreigners hadn't intervened (Alija and Silajdzic were present) I said:
wait
until an appropriate amount of Muslim blood is spilled and then they
will
intervene. And that was printed as my lecture: "Anti-Islamic syndrome of
the
West against Muslims". That's what happened. Later, they came to
congratulate
me; they said, you had seen it a year and a half before.
Ajvatovica is Bogumil Holly Site
Help me to resolve a dilemma: although Islam is a universal religion, is
it
possible to speak about specific Bosnian Islam?
In general, Bosnian Islam doesn't exist. Islam is everywhere the same,
as is
Christianity. In Bosnian Islam there are a lot of traces of other
religions.
Here, Islam absorbed certain elements from Christianity, or even better,
from
Bogumils, from whom we took Ajvatovica and everything else.
You say that we accepted Ajvatovica from Bogumils?
Of course. That is a Bogumil religious site.
But that fact is totally ignored in today's political, traditional and
theological interpretation?
Remember that every religion is totalitarian. It doesn't want anything
that
belongs to someone else. That's it, all religions are totalitarian, not
only
Islam. The fact that it absorbs elements from other religions, it
couldn't
have been any different.
Do you think that a believer is morally superior to a non-believer?
In my opinion, morality is outside religion. Morality is a part of an
individual, his upbringing. If I was brought up to respect the moral
principle "love your neighbors, no matter who they are" I don't need a
religion for that. Therefore, conditionally, morality and religion do
not
have to intersect anywhere. Religion is not the only bearer of morality.
Philosophy also sets moral standards. The same can be true for politics,
if
it is real politics, although that is rare today. We know that, because
morality and politics often follow different paths.
I've read somewhere that only Bosnian Muslims have the institution of
reisul-ulema. Is that true?
Reisul-ulema dates from Austria-Hungary. During the Ottomans we had a
mufti
who was subordinate to the caliph in Carigrad [Istanbul]. However,
Austria
was much smarter, it tried to protect its interests. It wanted to
separate
the Muslims from the caliph. Therefore, they established a separate
religious
community lead by reisul-ulema from 1881. Reisul-ulema means the head of
ulema, the head of theologians. That how that was established and that
institution continued until today.
As far as I know, you deny legitimacy to reis-effendi Ceric. Why?
Reis Ceric has without doubt very good qualifications and was educated
both
in the East and the West. But he, in my opinion, I don't how he allowed
that
to happen, allowed that Alija appoint him for a naibu-reis, that is an
acting
reis. Beforehand, Alija had appointed ten individuals in the Assembly of
the
Islamic Community. But it is the tradition among the Muslims that the
Assembly must be elected. Alija appointed 10 of his men and they elected
Ceric for naibu-reis. Only a few month later, naibu-reis summoned his
five
muftis and told them: it would be good if you proclaimed me a
reisul-ulema.
And that's how he became the reis.
You don't accept that the conditions at the time demanded certain
irregular
interventions?
Not at all. For example, during WWII we didn't have a reis. There was
only
naibu-reis, a very learned man Salih Safvet effendi Basic, a professor
at the
Theology faculty. He was naibu-reis until the arrival of the Partisans
and
even a few years after that. Then, the Partisans used their methods to
form
the Assembly of the Islamic Community which, like it or not,
legitimately
elected new reis Fejic. And that's how it went until our days, until
Ceric's
election. I am surprised that Alija could have made such a mistake. But,
let
me repeat that Ceric is a learned man.
(...)
In your opinion, what is the reason for the conflict between Rijaset and
Ilmija?
Probably personal relations. That's worst among us. Both in the Islamic
Community leadership and in politics. These people demonstrated that
they
cannot accept Ceric's hasty political views and that they want to assert
separate identity as Muslims and continue to work as believers only. On
the
other hand, Ceric wants to sit in the first rows at the SDA party
congress.
That's trouble. He doesn't know that his photos are printed in papers. I
have
at least five articles of that sort. Please, Ajvatovica is the best
example:
Alija delivers a political speech, Ceric leads a prayer. I asked Alija:
where
was your brain, buddy? - I am his senior and can talk to him like that -
how
could you be so stupid? Ajvatovica is a religious event and you can go
there
as a believer, not to deliver political speeches. And Ceric could have
[delivered a speech].
State of Serb Soldiers
I would appreciate if you could answer several questions of legal and
political nature. Does Bosnia-Hercegovina exist as a state?
Speaking openly against all existing trends in politics,
Bosnia-Hercegovina
doesn't any more legally exist as a state. It is a confederation of the
Federation B-H and the Republic of Srpska. Only a little "legal feel" in
the
constitutional law is required to see that the Dayton Agreement cut
Bosnia-Hercegovina in two. However, that is not a terrible thing. When I
asked Alija's lawyers what sort of a state we were they replied: well,
we'll
see that during the evolution. That doesn't work. What are we now? Are
we an
empire, kingdom, or something third? If you say a confederation, then we
are
not a state. The confederation consists of two states which act together
in
some spheres. Take for example the Dayton Agreement, Article 2 or 3 (if
I'm
not mistaken): Bosnia-Hercegovina authorities are in charge of customs
etc.
All together six or seven spheres of activity. Everything else that is
not
listed in that article is under jurisdiction of the entities. Therefore,
these are two states. That's the way it was in Austria-Hungary. There
were
four or five common spheres: emperor and king, ministry of foreign
affairs,
ministry of finance and a few others, and everything else was under
Austrian
or Hungarian jurisdiction. You know, Austria-Hungary was a classic
example of
a confederation.
Are you concerned that Bosnia-Hercegovina could, like the
Austrian-Hungarian
confederation, fail as a historical product?
Any state can disappear. Therefore, Bosnia-Hercegovina can survive or
disappear as well. The Dayton Agreement divided us into two parts. In my
opinion, that is a superior trick which has split Bosnia-Hercegovina in
an
elegant way and made its ruin in the future inevitable.
Why are you such a pessimist?
I am not a pessimist; I only try to be realistic about the current
situation.
If someone convinces me that Bosnia-Hercegovina, the Federation and the
Republic of Srpska will stay together I will eat my words. What is the
Republic of Srpska in relation to the Federation? The Federation which
has,
it is terrible to say, 10 cantons, that's unbelievable, on 23,000 square
kilometers. A huge bureaucratic apparatus on one and the Republic of
Srpska
on the other side. I am not a pessimist; if someone can convince me that
all
of this will somehow merge in the future, I'll shake his hand and
apologize.
What if Bosnia-Hercegovina is placed under a foreign protectorate?
In that case it is hard to predict how long it would last and what its
goals
would be. There is already a de facto protectorate, and a legal
protectorate,
if introduced, would be the best solution for all three peoples,
although the
Serbs would be unbelievably angry. Croats would be a bit less angry and
we
Muslims wouldn't be angry at all. In my opinion Bosnia-Hercegovina can
only
survive under some sort of de facto or legal protectorate. When was
Bosnia-Hercegovina whole while left to itself? Never. The Ottomans held
it in
their hands, Austria-Hungary as well. As soon as the Kingdom of Serbs,
Croats
and Slovenes arrived Bosnia-Hercegovina begun to break into regions and
split
into two parts in 1939. One part drifted towards Serbia and the other
towards
Croatia. Therefore, under the rule of its own people, Bosnia-Hercegovina
must
break up. That is inevitable. Socialism held Bosnia forcefully in its
hands.
Doesn't the political existence of the medieval Bosnian state contradict
you?
Medieval Bosnia was a united Bosnia. There were no Serbs nor Croats
neither
Catholics nor Orthodox. It was the land of good Bosniaks.
Do you think, as a lawyer, that Bosnia-Hercegovina can win its suit
against
Serbia at the International Justice Court in the Hague?
If they win that case then Europe and the whole world would jump into
their
own belly. First, it must be proven where the aggression is and what it
is.
An aggression is an attack of one state on another. Where is the other
state
here?
Well, now you're making me mad. Serbia attacked us!
Serbia attacked who?
Bosnia-Hercegovina
Bosnia-Hercegovina didn't exist at the time.
How come, when we were recognized by the United Nations on April 6 1992?
Recognition still doesn't mean that a state exists. It also has to exist
in
practice. Bosnia didn't exist in practice. There was only a state of
Serb
soldiers.
I do not agree with you. Legally, Bosnia-Hercegovina was in 1992 a state
and
that is objectively enough for the existence of an aggression.
Legally, Bosnia-Hercegovina could have been recognized by as many states
as
you please. NDH was recognized by more than 30 states. A state, in order
to
be a state, must have three basic elements: territory, people and
government.
Bosnia-Hercegovina had none of the three elements. The state authorities
only
had control of Sarajevo and a few more cities.
So, you claim there was no aggression on Bosnia-Hercegovina?
Of course. This was a religious and civil conflict provoked by Alija's
imprudent actions. We had a chance to agree with Serbs and Croats and
divide
Bosnia into three parts so that it still remained whole in some way. As
a
confederation. What now? We paid with over 200,000 young lives, 70
percent of
our cultural heritage was destroyed and what do we have in the end? A
ruined
Bosnia divided into two parts.
Islam was Everywhere
Could you explain your sentence that religious nationalism is the main
factor
in the downfall of Bosnia-Hercegovina?
There is no real nationalism in our country. Religious nationalism de
facto
does not represent real nationalism but a reflection of religious
feelings.
Religious wars are the worst wars in the history of humanity. Such wars
took
place in Bosnia in the past. Please, could you have imagined that
someone
destroys our mosque and that we destroy someone's church? It is enough
to see
that and to know the character of the war. The goal was to destroy
symbols of
other religions.
It sounds as though you fully agree with Huntington and his theory about
clash of civilizations?
Well, he is almost right, although I do not want to apply a general
theory to
Bosnia. Bosnia is specific in its historical development. It is a state
with
three religions and, if you will, three peoples which were kept together
under the secret or open protectorate of external factors. Socialism was
a
protectorate over Bosnia.
You mean, a socialist protectorate?
Let it be socialist. But, let's say at that time you tried to destroy a
church or a mosque. That was a crime, punishable by 10 years in jail.
Did Islam do better in Communism or now when SDA is in power?
It is difficult to make such a comparison. It is the fact that after 45
years
of socialism Islam floated to the surface like Catholicism and Eastern
Orthodox Christianity. It is hard to destroy a religion. It is something
superhuman. The most important thing is that today we witness a new wave
of
Islamization as in 1463. Then Bogumils, after the arrival of the Turks,
en
masse converted to Islam. Today we have the same situation: mass
conversion
of Communists to Islam.
Has the participation of Islam in public life been beneficial or not?
Islam wasn't hidden under Communism. It was everywhere. Among
intellectuals,
individuals etc. It existed as a tradition in even the most orthodox
Communists. I know of such ministers, I have talked to them. When you
talk to
them, you can see their tradition lurking somewhere in the background,
regardless whether he is a Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Muslim.
Religious
tradition cannot be destroyed, and today when all the restrictions are
gone,
suddenly all of that has come to the surface. Islam reappeared from
those
intellectuals who supported different ideology; they were joined by
educated
Islamic priests.
I have a feeling that the International Community, lately, in order to
achieve reconciliation of peoples in Bosnia-Hercegovina, is increasingly
promoting senseless and unjust theory about equal guilt. What do you
think
about that?
In my opinion, that theory will be rejected by Serbs, Croats and
everyone
else in Bosnia. I think that we should seek a different idea which will,
if
we want that, connect us.
Do you believe in the existence of such an idea?
I don't know. It is difficult to find it at this point. After blood was
spilt
in Bosnia, it is hard to say, let us live together again. That will take
time
and I think that the West is correctly approaching that problem: they
are
holding Bosnia under a protectorate and will continue to do so until a
new
generation which will have forgotten everything, is mature. That is the
only
way. Otherwise, such a tragedy cannot be forgotten.
-
Last Days of "Paradise"
Dani, Sarajevo, Bosnia-Hercegovina, January 19 1998
by Dzenana Karup
During the war and several months into the post-war period, the village
of
Guca Gora was one of the main Mojahedeen bases in Bosnia. Bosniak
refugees,
who started to move into this village in 1993, say that about 300
foreign
Muslim warriors used to live there. The leader of this group was
renowned Abu
Hamza, the man for whom the Federal Police has been searching
unsuccessfully.
Dani visited Guca Gora and in a conversation with the locals learnt the
cruel
truth about "Arab totalitarianism" that suffocated their Bosnian soul
and the
right to live according to Bosnian laws. In this case, Mojahedeen were
not
fabricated by the western media: this is an unwritten story about a
reign of
terror that resulted in destroyed Bosnian youths who are trying to come
to
their senses in the prison in Zenica after months and years of training
according to Hamza's "rules of the game". In Guca Gora, there are no
more
Mojahedeen.
The village of Guca Gora, ten kilometers from Travnik, was the main
stronghold of Abu Hamza and his people for more than three years.
Immediately
after their arrival they imposed their lifestyle and introduced "Arab"
laws.
In practice that meant, recall the locals, that all of them had to
regularly
attend prayers [or "do namaz"; done five times a day, one of religious
duties
in Islam] and in "the Arab" way (every namaz consists of four rekjats),
women
had to be covered, children as well, swearing was not allowed and
contact
with kafirs [unbelievers] (Serbs or Croats) was also forbidden. No one
dared
contradict the chief of the village, Hamza. His men issued orders and
threats, beat up people, and basically introduced a reign of terror "in
the
name of Allah". They kept repeating that there were following Allah's
way.
They succeeded in their intentions for two reasons: fear and hunger. The
locals complied to avoid "disappearance" and to feed their children.
"For $100 and regular monthly assistance our children would leave front
lines
and switch to their unit," says an elderly man who still does not
understand
how come no one in the Army reacted to that type of desertion, although
an
autonomous and independent brigade was later formed from those youths
and
Mojahedeen. "I've never seen them fight anywhere. I respect the fighters
from
El-Mujaheed, I fought next to them, but these... It was obvious that
they
came here with a different goal," says one of the locals who is still
afraid
to reveal his name to journalists. The need to stay anonymous is a
general
characteristic in Guca Gora. These Bosniaks can hardly say a word. They
still
remember Hamza's men armed to the teeth with bombs, sniper rifles,
shoulder
held rocket launchers... The locals would rather be killed than
photographed.
Seventy-year-old grandmother, who used to be Hamza's next door neighbor
says:
"I would gladly tell you everything about that but he is not human, he
is a
devil. Look, even now, they caught everyone except for him. If he saw my
name
or picture in a newspaper he would immediately slaughter me." Her
neighbor,
shaking his head, adds: "They have a lot of followers. And who knows,
maybe
Hamza and the two Arabs who are still on the loose are still in the
area.
They know this area really well. They have lived here with us for
years."
The Place of Jihad
This was a Croat village before the war. Most of the Bosniaks who today
live
in Guca Gora settled there after Arabs, who told them that all the
houses in
the village were their because they had liberated them. Hence, the
refugees
had to ask for a permission to move to the village and the Arabs would
decide
who was to live where. A refugee from Jajce, one of the first arrivals
(even
today, most of the inhabitants of Guca Gora are originally from Jajce)
remembers that period: "There were about 300 of them. They kept coming
and
leaving. About 50 Arabs used to live here with women and children. We
have
recognized on TV all those caught by our Police. I do not know their
names,
they were difficult to pronounce and remember. We called them Arabs. The
first thing they did in the village was to build a mosque in a converted
Croat stable. They did namaz there, while they kept bones of the pigs
they
had killed upon the arrival to the village on the first floor.
Everything,
all the main meetings, took place in the mosque."
Arabs told the locals that they were invited to Bosnia-Hercegovina to
fight.
To the question about who invited them, one local replies: "That's what
we
wanted to know as well. They said: ' Alija Izetbegovic. Exactly like
Karadzic
invited Russians'." These men, says one of the locals who were in close
contact with them, were cheated. They were promised houses and land in
Bosnia. "Most of them had not lived in Arab countries before the arrival
to
Bosnia. They said that they go wherever there is Jihad. Most of them
were not
true Muslims, but converted Christians. There were even a few converted
Jews.
Hamza told me that. Once, I heard one of them call on prayer and I found
it
suspicious that he made many pauses and had trouble with pronunciation.
I
found out that he was born Roman Catholic. Hamza is a real Muslim, born
in
Tunisia. However, he left Tunisia nine years ago. I asked him why he did
not
return to his country and he replied that he would immediately be
killed. I
did not dare ask any more questions."
The most important task of the Arabs, as they emphasized themselves, was
to
recruit young Bosniaks to their ranks. After various courses to which
they
were sent, these young men would become religious fanatics and would
reject
their own parents "in the name of Allah". They would tell everyone that
only
they were right and everyone else was wrong. An elderly woman, who
regularly
attended Hamza's mosque ("I had to, I had nothing to eat"), remembers
that he
once said: "There are about 25,000 Arabs in Bosnia. Now we only need to
recruit as many Bosnians and then we shall form a Corps. The Army of
Bosnia-Hercegovina will then see who we are. We shall rule Bosnia. You
will
have to cover yourself. If you refuse, we shall kill you." This woman is
covered but, as the majority of Bosnian elderly women, only with a
kerchief
tied below her neck, and that was not sufficient. The elderly woman has
this
to say about Hamza's success in his intention to "recruit young men":
"They've misled the people. Look at them now, the prison is full of
them.
Hamza's Army!"
Halal Only to Bosnia
The only person who openly talks about everything that took place in
Guca
Gora is Mustafa Pracalic. Born in 1948 in Jajce, he came to Guca Gora
with a
wife and two sons in 1993. "That was a huge mistake," he says in a quiet
voice. Mustafa's son Samir was arrested in recent actions of the Police
together with other Arab terrorists and domestic Mojahedeen. Pracalic
says
that Samir participated three months ago in an abduction of a car with a
young man and a woman, both Croats. A youth from Namila and an Arab were
jailed together with Samir because of the same act.
"This is a huge shame for me," Mustafa continues with downcast eyes.
"This is
a strong comparison, but when my younger son was killed in Jajce, he was
16.
I placed him with my own hands in a grave. However, this was much more
difficult." Hamza, claims Pracalic, managed to take his son away from
home
when he was only 18. "I know that my son is guilty, but is his guilt the
same
as theirs? I do not want to meddle in judicial matters but the main
organizer
lived here for three years and no one touched him nor knew anything
about his
intentions. I cannot understand that. I served for four years in the
Army and
I did that for Bosnia, no one else. But inside me, there was a worse war
against the Arabs, than the one fought on the front lines. They wanted
to
take my younger son away as well. Fortunately, he was still a minor and
I
could control him. I couldn't do anything with the elder son, he was
already
an adult." Mustafa Prcalic went several times to the Police, wrote
complaints, tried to warn about what was going on, but: "No one
listened, and
on few occasions they even refused to see me at the Police station. The
Arabs
recruited youths aged 18 to 20, those who were the easiest to mislead. I
cannot accept that to this day. That could have been prevented. These
people
should have been controlled and someone should have paid attention to
who
deals with our youth."
About the crime of his son Samir he says the following: "An Arab with a
long
beard came together with a covered woman and asked for Samir. Hamza had
already left the village and I was hoping that they would leave Samir
alone.
However, the Arab said that he was the new chief of their organization
in the
Balkans and that he wanted to give Samir some packages, left over from
the
previous year". They really brought the packages. "They were bringing
all
sorts of stuff for full two days: meat, flour..." Months before that
Samir
had to wear his grandmother's shoes because he had no money. He left
with the
Arab and was gone for five days. "That's when it happened. Later he
showed up
in new shoes and clothing and I asked him where he got that. He said: 'I
found a job. I traveled with my new boss all over Bosnia. We found
humanitarian aid that was hidden by others'." That evening there were
news on
the TV that unknown attackers had abducted a car with Croats. Two days
later,
Samir was arrested. His wife said that in jail Samir confessed to
everything
and that Arabs would kill him when he gets out.
"Hamza is not a man, he is a terrorist"
His parents could not have contact with Samir from the time he joined
the
Arabs. He was immediately sent to Zenica to some sort of their school.
His
mother went to visit him. When she returned, she said: "Our Samir is
gone."
Mustafa remembers his son's return: "He was a totally different child.
He
could not hold a normal conversation any more. He became extremely
religious,
a fanatic. Even I had to be careful about what I said in front of him.
The
training took 45 days. I asked him what they had done there. He said
that
there had been a TV and that they had watched the real truth. And they
watched programs about the war in Afganistan and struggle on the way of
Allah." After this, the Arabs sent Samir for 45 days to practical
military
training to Orasac. And then his wife went to ders, which is what they
called
training for women, also in Orasac. When she came back she was wrapped
in
black from her head to the toes. She couldn't talk to any males, not
even
with Samir's father and brother. Mustafa told to his wife: "This is what
Hamza has brought to us. As soon as Samir joined them, Hamza married
him.
Hamza conducted the ceremony himself, in a religious manner, according
to
sharia. How can Hamza marry someone when only imams can do that!?
However, he
conducted marriages and convinced children that it had to be done that
way."
The Arabs tried to send Samir to Saudi Arabia and gave him money to
obtain
the necessary documents. When his father found out he managed to prevent
that. Mustafa was afraid that Samir would be later sent to Afganistan or
to a
different war.
Besides, the story about Samir's recruitment reveals that the Arabs are
very
skillful in that. First they "work" on the parents. When they tried to
prevent the departure of "the misguided son" Hamza began to visit the
house
with threats - since they were against "the followers of Allah". Mustafa
has
numerous examples for what these followers were like and what they did.
Here
is one of them: "They were trying to convince my wife to leave her job
with
the Bosnian Army. They said that they would give her every month 50kg of
flour and aid packages, if only she stopped feeding bandits. I guess I
am a
bandit too, since I fought with that army."
Mustafa is not the only person who had problems because of disagreement
with
the Arabs. The collective tragedy of Guca Gora spread from the young to
the
old, although the former were in a more difficult position as is
illustrated
by "the village-dance case" told by several people in the tape-recorder
of
this journalist: "Hamza is not a man, he is a terrorist. Once, a dance
was
organized in the neighboring village of Krpeljica. Young people gathered
to
have some fun. The Arabs found out and went there. They chased everyone
away,
broke all the musical instruments, wounded a girl and beat up one of the
men
so badly that he suffered concussions. Both he and the girl ended up in
a
hospital: she was released after a treatment, but the boy had to stay in
the
hospital. The following day, Hamza went to the hospital, threw him out
of the
bed and chased him home, claiming that he was fine. The director of the
hospital and the Police were there. Why did not they intervene?"
Hamza and his followers are gone. During the last year, Hamza visited
the
village several times. During the summer, he had a house built for
himself in
the village of Kokici, near a dense forest, so that he could easily
escape if
SFOR attacks him. Several young men from Guca Gora helped Hamza to build
the
house, although they claim that they did that for money rather than
because
of ideological reasons. The Police was at the time looking for Hamza.
The
quality of their search is indicated by the fact that the mentioned men
were
not even questioned about Hamza's whereabouts. The men did not make an
effort
to turn Hamza in. In Guca Gora, there are no Mujahedeen any more.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Be Good With IFOR and Die
Hamza's men especially hated members of the international armed forces.
Because of that, every villager who would show good will toward IFOR
soldiers
would risk getting in trouble. The Pracalic family had problems because
of
that as well. One day, five foreign soldiers and a translator passed by
Mustafa's house and asked for a coffee. Mujahedeen were sitting across
the
street and watching all of that. When the soldiers left one of them took
out
a knife and shouted to Mustafa: "I am going to slaughter you tonight."
To
Mustafa's question why, he responded: "What are kafirs doing in front of
your
house?" After that threat Fikreta Prcalic, Mustafa's wife, went to visit
her
mother. The mentioned Mojahedeen spit at her and told her: "Kafir woman,
you
are walking around uncovered and are letting other kafirs enter your
house,"
and they threatened her mother: "We shall kill your daughter." The poor
woman
asked them: "Totally?" to which they responded "Totally". Fortunately,
the
threat was not fulfilled.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Story About Sara
Mojahedeen married Bosniak girls. When the Police began looking for
them,
those who were not caught escaped. All of them left wives and children
behind. Who is going to feed them now, wonder the villagers. Hamza has
four
children. His wife lives somewhere near Zenica. However, not all of them
found wives in Bosnia. Some of them brought wives with them. Jusuf, one
of
them, came from the Netherlands and brought a wife, Sara, an American of
Croatian origin. Namely, Sara's father left Croatia long time ago and
emigrated to the USA, where Sara was born. However, while he was with
the
military in the Netherlands he liked it so much that he brought his
family
over to Europe. Sara told the women from the village that aged 12 she
left
her family and became a vagrant. Somewhat later she met Jusuf who
converted
her to Islam and married her. She had been married for nine years before
coming to Bosnia. Aged 19, she had an enviable experience as a
homemaker. In
Bosnia, she gave birth to her first child. Before converting to Islam,
Jusuf
was a Jew and is Sara's senior by 20 years.
One of the women from the village told us this about Sara: "Hamza
recruited
his next door neighbor and another refugee to work on the reconstruction
of
the school. He told them to take soil from Jusuf's yard. It was about
noon. I
was cooking when something little appeared at the door. I only saw a
gun: it
was Sara. She said she was going to shoot. I said: 'Why do you want to
kill
me, what have I done to you!' She said that she was going to kill two
men,
next to her house. I said 'Who is going to come close to your Arab house
at
this time, when they don't dare get near it even at night?' We got out,
I
first, she behind me. Fortunately, all the men were in the mosque. She
pointed out baked soil that someone had been taking away. I said, 'Sara,
it's
not their fault. Hamza ordered them to fix the school.' I was shaking.
As
soon as the prayer finished, I hurried and found those two guys. I
called
them: 'Alaga, Mujo, why did you go in on your own? Sara was going to
shoot
you!'"
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Alagic a Target
Forty year old refugee from Jajce told us this story: "Alija and Tudman
agreed to from a federation. But the Mojahedeen did not like that.
Everything
turned to better, Bosniak forces were liberating Bosnia. One night I
went to
Hamza's house and his wife, Halima, skinny and hardly taller than a yard
[literally "a yard and a razor blade tall"], told me: 'If I knew at what
time
Alagic [Bosnian Army General] passes through the village (towards a
Roman
Catholic monastery that was guarded by the Bosnian Army, auth. rem.) I
would
kill him myself'. I told her: 'You would kill Alagic! You can't even
walk
around your own house.' I also asked her why Alagic bothered her. She
said:
'He advocates inter-ethnic tolerance'. I saw where this was going and
shut
up." By the way, according to this woman, out of spite, during the worst
fighting in Komar, Hamza pulled young men from the front with an excuse
that
they had to go to the mosque or to prepare for school in Zenica: "May
devil
destroy both them and their Arab school! What have they brought to
Bosnia!"
--------- COORDINAMENTO ROMANO PER LA JUGOSLAVIA -----------
RIMSKI SAVEZ ZA JUGOSLAVIJU
e-mail: crj@... - URL: http://marx2001.org/crj
http://www.egroups.com/group/crj-mailinglist/
------------------------------------------------------------
DOVEROSA PRECISAZIONE:
> Dear friends,
>
> The website you listed in a recent communication, namely www.compuserb.com
> run by pribich is a pro-fasicst website, most harmful.
>
> from http://home1.gte.net/pribich/cccc/voxtxt2.txt
> <http://home1.gte.net/pribich/cccc/voxtxt2.txt>
> related texts thru http://home1.gte.net/pribich/cccc/voxcovr1.htm
> <http://home1.gte.net/pribich/cccc/voxcovr1.htm
>
> This is not to deny the authenticity of the texts you published on the
> fascist-Islamist position of the Isetbegovic regime. But Pribich is a
> ferocious antisemite and most dangerous.
>
> Best regards,
> jared Israel
> www.emperors-clothes.com
--------- COORDINAMENTO ROMANO PER LA JUGOSLAVIA -----------
RIMSKI SAVEZ ZA JUGOSLAVIJU
e-mail: crj@... - URL: http://marx2001.org/crj
http://www.egroups.com/group/crj-mailinglist/
------------------------------------------------------------
> Dear friends,
>
> The website you listed in a recent communication, namely www.compuserb.com
> run by pribich is a pro-fasicst website, most harmful.
>
> from http://home1.gte.net/pribich/cccc/voxtxt2.txt
> <http://home1.gte.net/pribich/cccc/voxtxt2.txt>
> related texts thru http://home1.gte.net/pribich/cccc/voxcovr1.htm
> <http://home1.gte.net/pribich/cccc/voxcovr1.htm
>
> This is not to deny the authenticity of the texts you published on the
> fascist-Islamist position of the Isetbegovic regime. But Pribich is a
> ferocious antisemite and most dangerous.
>
> Best regards,
> jared Israel
> www.emperors-clothes.com
--------- COORDINAMENTO ROMANO PER LA JUGOSLAVIA -----------
RIMSKI SAVEZ ZA JUGOSLAVIJU
e-mail: crj@... - URL: http://marx2001.org/crj
http://www.egroups.com/group/crj-mailinglist/
------------------------------------------------------------
MUSICA ITALIOTA PER UNA BUONA CAUSA
La migliore musica pop dell'Italia fascista e' stata raccolta in un CD
per consentire la sopravvivenza della scuola di musica di Sarajevo, che
dopo le devastazioni collegate allo sfascio della Jugoslavia unitaria -
quando tutti avevano libero accesso gratuito ai corsi di musica - e' ora
minacciata di requisizione da parte dei preti cattolici.
Finira' anche qui come a Mostar, dove per finanziare un ente teatrale
hanno organizzato megaconcerti coinvolgendo pure Pavarotti, ma i soldi
alla fine sono finiti nelle tasche di qualche mafioso profittatore di
guerra?
"Abbassa la tua radio"
Esce il 2 cd prodotto per finanziare il Liceo di Musica di Sarajevo
GUIDO FESTINESE
Peppe Servillo degli Avion Travel intona con roca e
divertita partecipazione il brano che Gabriella Ferri
preferiva far squillare come un richiamo: Dove sta Zazà?.
La voce grintosa e argentina di Irene Grandi propone
Silenzioso slow, e le fanno sponda la tromba poetica del
più grande jazzista italiano, Enrico Rava, e il pianoforte
del giovane che da alcuni anni viene segnalato come miglior
talento nei referendum specializzati, Stefano Bollani. Rava
lo si ritrova anche in duo con Bollani, per Baciami
piccina. E poi c'è Elio che, non pago di aver imparato a
cantare "a tenore" con i gruppi sardi qui sfodera una
degnissima grinta di tenore per una surreale Parlami
d'amore Mariù.
Javier Girotto, sassofonista argentino sublime degli Aires
Tango non sembra provare il minimo imbarazzo a improvvisare
su Quell'uccellin che vien dal mare. Tutto questo, e molto
altro materiale attizza-memoria si trova in Abbassa la tua
radio/Omaggio alla musica italiana degli anni '30 e '40. Un
cd (ed. Ermitage) in questi giorni in edicola con un
fascicolo che raccoglie illustrazioni d'epoca e uno
splendido testo curato da Giancarlo Governi, tratto dal
volume Tu musica divina. Tutti gli arrangiamenti sono di
Bollani, che in un brano di spettacolare efficacia, Conosci
mia cugina, si diverte a cantare in perfetto stile crooner.
Il singolare sodalizio fra la parte più creativa del jazz
italiano e nomi scelti della musica leggera non serve solo
al gioco dei ricordi di quando, per dirla con Alberto
Sordi, la radio si ascoltava "seduti davanti, come a
teatro", né celebra i fasti un po' ingialliti di una bella
stagione delle note italiane, in cerca di mille guizzi per
sfuggire la cappa asfittica delle commissioni d'ascolto
dell'Eiar (mentre i Mussolini a casa loro ascoltavano
invece a volontà il "jazz negroide", proibendolo agli altri
italiani). "Abbassa la tua radio" è il secondo capitolo
discografico dedicato alla raccolta di fondi per il Liceo
di Musica di Sarajevo: il primo episodio di tre anni fa con
la partecipazione di Lucio Dalla, "Notte di luna calante"
ha già fruttato la riparazione dei malandati strumenti del
Liceo e l'acquisto di materiale didattico. Nato l'8 maggio
1945 per avvicinare alla musica i giovani fra i 12 e i 20
anni "senza distinzione di religione, nazionalità o
colore", Srednja Muzicka Skola di Sarajevo ospita oggi 205
allievi e 75 professori. Tutti operano fra mille
difficoltà: la biblioteca di 12.000 volumi è accatastata in
16 metri quadrati, gli strumenti sono così malandati da
essere spesso inutilizzabili e i ragazzi, nessuno dei quali
possiede lo strumento, di buon grado cercano di pagare una
sorta di affitto.
In più la chiesa cattolica, proprietaria dell'edificio al
centro di Sarajevo, pretende la restituzione degli spazi.
Tutti i proventi della vendita a prezzo speciale di Abbassa
la tua radio (19.900 lire) andranno a rimpolpare le magre
finanze del Liceo di Musica. Un buon motivo per riascoltare
Ho un sassolino nella scarpa e Mille lire al mese.
(Da "Il Manifesto", 19/7/2000)
--------- COORDINAMENTO ROMANO PER LA JUGOSLAVIA -----------
RIMSKI SAVEZ ZA JUGOSLAVIJU
e-mail: crj@... - URL: http://marx2001.org/crj
http://www.egroups.com/group/crj-mailinglist/
------------------------------------------------------------
La migliore musica pop dell'Italia fascista e' stata raccolta in un CD
per consentire la sopravvivenza della scuola di musica di Sarajevo, che
dopo le devastazioni collegate allo sfascio della Jugoslavia unitaria -
quando tutti avevano libero accesso gratuito ai corsi di musica - e' ora
minacciata di requisizione da parte dei preti cattolici.
Finira' anche qui come a Mostar, dove per finanziare un ente teatrale
hanno organizzato megaconcerti coinvolgendo pure Pavarotti, ma i soldi
alla fine sono finiti nelle tasche di qualche mafioso profittatore di
guerra?
"Abbassa la tua radio"
Esce il 2 cd prodotto per finanziare il Liceo di Musica di Sarajevo
GUIDO FESTINESE
Peppe Servillo degli Avion Travel intona con roca e
divertita partecipazione il brano che Gabriella Ferri
preferiva far squillare come un richiamo: Dove sta Zazà?.
La voce grintosa e argentina di Irene Grandi propone
Silenzioso slow, e le fanno sponda la tromba poetica del
più grande jazzista italiano, Enrico Rava, e il pianoforte
del giovane che da alcuni anni viene segnalato come miglior
talento nei referendum specializzati, Stefano Bollani. Rava
lo si ritrova anche in duo con Bollani, per Baciami
piccina. E poi c'è Elio che, non pago di aver imparato a
cantare "a tenore" con i gruppi sardi qui sfodera una
degnissima grinta di tenore per una surreale Parlami
d'amore Mariù.
Javier Girotto, sassofonista argentino sublime degli Aires
Tango non sembra provare il minimo imbarazzo a improvvisare
su Quell'uccellin che vien dal mare. Tutto questo, e molto
altro materiale attizza-memoria si trova in Abbassa la tua
radio/Omaggio alla musica italiana degli anni '30 e '40. Un
cd (ed. Ermitage) in questi giorni in edicola con un
fascicolo che raccoglie illustrazioni d'epoca e uno
splendido testo curato da Giancarlo Governi, tratto dal
volume Tu musica divina. Tutti gli arrangiamenti sono di
Bollani, che in un brano di spettacolare efficacia, Conosci
mia cugina, si diverte a cantare in perfetto stile crooner.
Il singolare sodalizio fra la parte più creativa del jazz
italiano e nomi scelti della musica leggera non serve solo
al gioco dei ricordi di quando, per dirla con Alberto
Sordi, la radio si ascoltava "seduti davanti, come a
teatro", né celebra i fasti un po' ingialliti di una bella
stagione delle note italiane, in cerca di mille guizzi per
sfuggire la cappa asfittica delle commissioni d'ascolto
dell'Eiar (mentre i Mussolini a casa loro ascoltavano
invece a volontà il "jazz negroide", proibendolo agli altri
italiani). "Abbassa la tua radio" è il secondo capitolo
discografico dedicato alla raccolta di fondi per il Liceo
di Musica di Sarajevo: il primo episodio di tre anni fa con
la partecipazione di Lucio Dalla, "Notte di luna calante"
ha già fruttato la riparazione dei malandati strumenti del
Liceo e l'acquisto di materiale didattico. Nato l'8 maggio
1945 per avvicinare alla musica i giovani fra i 12 e i 20
anni "senza distinzione di religione, nazionalità o
colore", Srednja Muzicka Skola di Sarajevo ospita oggi 205
allievi e 75 professori. Tutti operano fra mille
difficoltà: la biblioteca di 12.000 volumi è accatastata in
16 metri quadrati, gli strumenti sono così malandati da
essere spesso inutilizzabili e i ragazzi, nessuno dei quali
possiede lo strumento, di buon grado cercano di pagare una
sorta di affitto.
In più la chiesa cattolica, proprietaria dell'edificio al
centro di Sarajevo, pretende la restituzione degli spazi.
Tutti i proventi della vendita a prezzo speciale di Abbassa
la tua radio (19.900 lire) andranno a rimpolpare le magre
finanze del Liceo di Musica. Un buon motivo per riascoltare
Ho un sassolino nella scarpa e Mille lire al mese.
(Da "Il Manifesto", 19/7/2000)
--------- COORDINAMENTO ROMANO PER LA JUGOSLAVIA -----------
RIMSKI SAVEZ ZA JUGOSLAVIJU
e-mail: crj@... - URL: http://marx2001.org/crj
http://www.egroups.com/group/crj-mailinglist/
------------------------------------------------------------
Fonte: Yugoslav Daily Survey 20 July 2000 No.3114
http://www1.mfa.gov.yu/
http://www.smip.sv.gov.yu/
http://www.mfa.gov.yu/
INTERVIEW
OF THE FEDERAL MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS
OF THE FR OF YUGOSLAVIA, MR. ZIVADIN JOVANOVIC,
TO "AL ARAB AL YAWM" DAILY
In an interview to Jordanian "Al Arab Al Yawm" daily, the
Yugoslav
Foreign Minister Mr. Zivadin Jovanovic said that his country maintained
close relations with the majority of Arab countries, particularly
stressing
that the biased claim that Serbs had killed Muslims was the biggest lie
of
the twentieth century.
Q: What is your assessment of Yugoslav relations with Arab
countries on the whole?
A: We have very deep and strong friendship and ties with all
Arab
countries. Allow me to briefly reflect on Jordanian-Yugoslav relations.
Long-standing relations of cooperation and friendship, fruitful
political, economic, scientific, cultural and all other forms of
cooperation have linked us with Arab countries. The scope of our
friendly
relations and mutually beneficial cooperation with Arab countries
extends
from Gibraltar to Oman and we remain interested in the development of
Arab
countries. For example, our cooperation with North African Arab
countries
(Maghreb) is increasing. One of our companies has recently won a
contract
for a project in Libya worth 180 million US dollars. We have companies
working in the fields of infrastructure in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and
Algeria, as well as in Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE etc.
Q: Please tell us something about the present situation in
Yugoslavia.
A: We are now fully engaged in the reconstruction of what NATO
has
destroyed by bombing - bridges, factories, houses, radio and television
facilities, electricity and energy stations, schools, hospitals,
kindergartens. Recently, we have started our third phase of
reconstruction,
i.e. development. We are trying hard to find balance between
reconstruction
and technology modernization in order to enhance our economy and remain
competitive at international markets.
Automobile factory "Zastava", as well as our tractor factory for example
has renewed their export to Arab and neighboring countries. We have
recently opened the Bridge in Novi Sad over Danube River on European
corridor 10. Eighty-four trains to and from various European countries
daily pass over this bridge. In our view, this is of utmost geopolitical
importance in European transport, communication and links to the Middle
East and Asia.
We are working on the modernization of our economy and its
privatization. We promote small and medium projects and strongly
encourage
foreign investments. Greek and Italian investments, for example, are
estimated at one billion US dollars. Also, there are considerable
investments of Yugoslav expatriates amounting to millions, which are all
tax-free.
We have started the realization of a huge highway project linking the
city
of Novi Sad with our capital Belgrade. The construction of highway
Nis-Macedonian border is also underway. All of these projects are to be
completed before the 2004 Olympic games in Athens, to facilitate the
access
of Europeans to Greece through Yugoslavia. We assess that the transit
revenues amount now over 200 million US dollars.
Q: What is your assessment of the situation in Kosovo?
A: As you are aware, we have reached an agreement in June last
year ending the NATO aggression against our country. Based on this, the
UN
Security Council adopted its Resolution 1244 (1999), guaranteeing
security
to all citizens, the territorial integrity and sovereignty of
Yugoslavia,
ending terrorism, establishing the security of international borders,
guaranteeing a safe environment for free and safe return of all refugees
and displaced persons. However, none of this has been accomplished so
far.
Despite the fact that more than one year had elapsed since the adoption
of
the Resolution, all the conditions are continuously worsening. The drugs
and arms smuggling, women trafficking have spread, security has
deteriorated, killings and rapes has drastically increased.
In 12 months we have registered 1.100 murders and over 1000
kidnappings, mainly Serbs, Moslems, Romas, Goranci, Turks ? all
nonalbanians. This means that every day seven people are killed or
abducted. And no one was indicted or imprisoned for these crimes. About
350.000 Serbs, Muslims, Roma, Goranci, Turks and Egyptians were forced
to
leave Kosovo. During the same period, around 300.000 Albanians from
Albania
have illegally entered our southern province, which was tolerated by
UNMIK
and KFOR. This clearly shows the dramatic deterioration of the situation
in
the province, and systematic violation of the Resolution 1244 (1999).
The
UN Security Council has done nothing to ensure compliance and would not
let
us guard our borders, in spite of the fact that we are authorized to do
so
by Resolution 1244 (1999). On our part, we only insist on the full
implementation of the UN SC Resolution 1244. No more, no less. We insist
on
the respect of our sovereignty and territorial integrity and the
protection
of all our citizens, regardless of their religion or nationality. We
have
many citizens in Kosovo, both Muslims and Serbs, who are threatened by
terrorist "KLA" and are even without food, water, education or jobs.
Q: You talk about Muslims and of their suffering, while at the
same time your country is accused of expelling Muslims. What is your
view
of that?
A: That is obviously just a big lie and biased propaganda from
those who pretend to be the protectors of Muslims and who pose as their
apparent friends. At the same time, we have witnessed that they were
indiscriminately killing Albanians, Muslims, Serbs ? all citizens in
Kosovo, during the NATO aggression. They are trying to gain control over
Muslims throughout the Muslim world. This is because of the wealth of
Muslim countries, oil reserves and their consuming capacity. Therefore,
such claims represent the biggest lies of the 20th century. Such claims
are
aimed at destroying trust between the Muslim world and us. They want to
divide us, to seed mistrust and confrontation in order to gain control
over
both. However, fortunately, everyone is becoming aware of that devious
tactics. Serbs and Muslims in Yugoslavia have lived as brothers for
centuries. The have lived without problems for they have the same Slavic
origin, they are of the same race and blood; they share the same destiny
and goals of peace and prosperity. What do the superpowers want and what
are they planning? Their strategy is to create a religious conflict in
order to destroy and weaken all religions, thus dominating over our
wealth
and our destiny. But we in Yugoslavia do not allow anybody to interfere
between us, between Muslims and Serbs. Some people are perhaps unaware
that
indeed more Muslims live in Yugoslavia than in Bosnia. Both Muslims and
Christians are now working together on the reconstruction and
modernization of Yugoslavia. They are brothers and they cherish
Yugoslavia
as their only home.
Q: What is the story of the opposition and who is behind it?
A: After NATO's failure in achieving their goals by force, they
resorted to sanctions and interference in our internal affairs in the
attempt to destabilize the country and impose leaders of their own
choice,
those who would amnesty NATO of its crimes against peace and humanity.
One
has to remember that they have destroyed our economy during the
aggression
inflicting damage estimated at around 100 billion US dollars. This is in
addition to 150 billion US dollars damage caused by illegal sanctions.
They
have killed thousands of civilians, children, refugees and many innocent
people, among them 16 journalists of Belgrade television. Out of 19 TV
transmitters, they have destroyed 17, leaving only two in operation. At
the
same time they have established NATO radio and television stations in
some
of our neighboring countries in order to change the public opinion
against
our Government and its leaders. They are paying many to the opposition
hoping for destabilization. Our opposition parties call for holding
extraordinary elections only a couple of months before the regular
elections, scheduled to be held later this year. There are no reasons
for
this. A vast majority, if not all people are engaged in the
reconstruction
and expect elections to be held in regular terms. They do not trust NATO
or
their exponents in our country.
Last April the opposition organized a demonstration offended by
some 30.000 people. Having in mind that only Belgrade has 2 million
residents, that is very low support. Last May they tried with another
demonstration offended by not more than 15.000 people. Last June they
organized the third demonstration attended by only a couple of thousand
people. And just for comparison: the inauguration of the newly
constructed
bridge over the Danube in Novi Sad by President Milosevic in June was
attended by hundreds of thousands of people. You need to judge these
facts
by yourself ? whom and what kind of policy the people support and whom
and
what they do not support.
Q: We have heard that some countries are advocating the
alleviation of sanctions against Yugoslavia. What is your opinion of
that?
A: Yes, indeed. More or less everyone now recognizes that
sanctions do not solve but rather cause many problems, that they
represent
the most massive violation of human rights and that they are
counterproductive. At this time, out of 15 members of the EU, only one ?
Britain ? is still in favor of sanctions. All the others are against.
Hopefully those responsible in London may also soon accept the will of
the
majority in the EU.
We highly appreciate calls for removal of sanctions from many
European countries. Just to mention the actions of the Russian Duma,
that
of 30 Swedish MPs and a big group of Italian MPs, including the Chairman
of
the Italian Parliament. The British parliamentary group has collected
10.000 signatures to urge the British Government to lift the sanctions.
We
believe that the sanctions are a crime against humanity and we call for
the
immediate lifting of all sanctions anywhere in the world. They solve
nothing. They only cause suffering.
--------- COORDINAMENTO ROMANO PER LA JUGOSLAVIA -----------
RIMSKI SAVEZ ZA JUGOSLAVIJU
e-mail: crj@... - URL: http://marx2001.org/crj
http://www.egroups.com/group/crj-mailinglist/
------------------------------------------------------------
http://www1.mfa.gov.yu/
http://www.smip.sv.gov.yu/
http://www.mfa.gov.yu/
INTERVIEW
OF THE FEDERAL MINISTER FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS
OF THE FR OF YUGOSLAVIA, MR. ZIVADIN JOVANOVIC,
TO "AL ARAB AL YAWM" DAILY
In an interview to Jordanian "Al Arab Al Yawm" daily, the
Yugoslav
Foreign Minister Mr. Zivadin Jovanovic said that his country maintained
close relations with the majority of Arab countries, particularly
stressing
that the biased claim that Serbs had killed Muslims was the biggest lie
of
the twentieth century.
Q: What is your assessment of Yugoslav relations with Arab
countries on the whole?
A: We have very deep and strong friendship and ties with all
Arab
countries. Allow me to briefly reflect on Jordanian-Yugoslav relations.
Long-standing relations of cooperation and friendship, fruitful
political, economic, scientific, cultural and all other forms of
cooperation have linked us with Arab countries. The scope of our
friendly
relations and mutually beneficial cooperation with Arab countries
extends
from Gibraltar to Oman and we remain interested in the development of
Arab
countries. For example, our cooperation with North African Arab
countries
(Maghreb) is increasing. One of our companies has recently won a
contract
for a project in Libya worth 180 million US dollars. We have companies
working in the fields of infrastructure in Egypt, Libya, Tunisia and
Algeria, as well as in Iraq, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE etc.
Q: Please tell us something about the present situation in
Yugoslavia.
A: We are now fully engaged in the reconstruction of what NATO
has
destroyed by bombing - bridges, factories, houses, radio and television
facilities, electricity and energy stations, schools, hospitals,
kindergartens. Recently, we have started our third phase of
reconstruction,
i.e. development. We are trying hard to find balance between
reconstruction
and technology modernization in order to enhance our economy and remain
competitive at international markets.
Automobile factory "Zastava", as well as our tractor factory for example
has renewed their export to Arab and neighboring countries. We have
recently opened the Bridge in Novi Sad over Danube River on European
corridor 10. Eighty-four trains to and from various European countries
daily pass over this bridge. In our view, this is of utmost geopolitical
importance in European transport, communication and links to the Middle
East and Asia.
We are working on the modernization of our economy and its
privatization. We promote small and medium projects and strongly
encourage
foreign investments. Greek and Italian investments, for example, are
estimated at one billion US dollars. Also, there are considerable
investments of Yugoslav expatriates amounting to millions, which are all
tax-free.
We have started the realization of a huge highway project linking the
city
of Novi Sad with our capital Belgrade. The construction of highway
Nis-Macedonian border is also underway. All of these projects are to be
completed before the 2004 Olympic games in Athens, to facilitate the
access
of Europeans to Greece through Yugoslavia. We assess that the transit
revenues amount now over 200 million US dollars.
Q: What is your assessment of the situation in Kosovo?
A: As you are aware, we have reached an agreement in June last
year ending the NATO aggression against our country. Based on this, the
UN
Security Council adopted its Resolution 1244 (1999), guaranteeing
security
to all citizens, the territorial integrity and sovereignty of
Yugoslavia,
ending terrorism, establishing the security of international borders,
guaranteeing a safe environment for free and safe return of all refugees
and displaced persons. However, none of this has been accomplished so
far.
Despite the fact that more than one year had elapsed since the adoption
of
the Resolution, all the conditions are continuously worsening. The drugs
and arms smuggling, women trafficking have spread, security has
deteriorated, killings and rapes has drastically increased.
In 12 months we have registered 1.100 murders and over 1000
kidnappings, mainly Serbs, Moslems, Romas, Goranci, Turks ? all
nonalbanians. This means that every day seven people are killed or
abducted. And no one was indicted or imprisoned for these crimes. About
350.000 Serbs, Muslims, Roma, Goranci, Turks and Egyptians were forced
to
leave Kosovo. During the same period, around 300.000 Albanians from
Albania
have illegally entered our southern province, which was tolerated by
UNMIK
and KFOR. This clearly shows the dramatic deterioration of the situation
in
the province, and systematic violation of the Resolution 1244 (1999).
The
UN Security Council has done nothing to ensure compliance and would not
let
us guard our borders, in spite of the fact that we are authorized to do
so
by Resolution 1244 (1999). On our part, we only insist on the full
implementation of the UN SC Resolution 1244. No more, no less. We insist
on
the respect of our sovereignty and territorial integrity and the
protection
of all our citizens, regardless of their religion or nationality. We
have
many citizens in Kosovo, both Muslims and Serbs, who are threatened by
terrorist "KLA" and are even without food, water, education or jobs.
Q: You talk about Muslims and of their suffering, while at the
same time your country is accused of expelling Muslims. What is your
view
of that?
A: That is obviously just a big lie and biased propaganda from
those who pretend to be the protectors of Muslims and who pose as their
apparent friends. At the same time, we have witnessed that they were
indiscriminately killing Albanians, Muslims, Serbs ? all citizens in
Kosovo, during the NATO aggression. They are trying to gain control over
Muslims throughout the Muslim world. This is because of the wealth of
Muslim countries, oil reserves and their consuming capacity. Therefore,
such claims represent the biggest lies of the 20th century. Such claims
are
aimed at destroying trust between the Muslim world and us. They want to
divide us, to seed mistrust and confrontation in order to gain control
over
both. However, fortunately, everyone is becoming aware of that devious
tactics. Serbs and Muslims in Yugoslavia have lived as brothers for
centuries. The have lived without problems for they have the same Slavic
origin, they are of the same race and blood; they share the same destiny
and goals of peace and prosperity. What do the superpowers want and what
are they planning? Their strategy is to create a religious conflict in
order to destroy and weaken all religions, thus dominating over our
wealth
and our destiny. But we in Yugoslavia do not allow anybody to interfere
between us, between Muslims and Serbs. Some people are perhaps unaware
that
indeed more Muslims live in Yugoslavia than in Bosnia. Both Muslims and
Christians are now working together on the reconstruction and
modernization of Yugoslavia. They are brothers and they cherish
Yugoslavia
as their only home.
Q: What is the story of the opposition and who is behind it?
A: After NATO's failure in achieving their goals by force, they
resorted to sanctions and interference in our internal affairs in the
attempt to destabilize the country and impose leaders of their own
choice,
those who would amnesty NATO of its crimes against peace and humanity.
One
has to remember that they have destroyed our economy during the
aggression
inflicting damage estimated at around 100 billion US dollars. This is in
addition to 150 billion US dollars damage caused by illegal sanctions.
They
have killed thousands of civilians, children, refugees and many innocent
people, among them 16 journalists of Belgrade television. Out of 19 TV
transmitters, they have destroyed 17, leaving only two in operation. At
the
same time they have established NATO radio and television stations in
some
of our neighboring countries in order to change the public opinion
against
our Government and its leaders. They are paying many to the opposition
hoping for destabilization. Our opposition parties call for holding
extraordinary elections only a couple of months before the regular
elections, scheduled to be held later this year. There are no reasons
for
this. A vast majority, if not all people are engaged in the
reconstruction
and expect elections to be held in regular terms. They do not trust NATO
or
their exponents in our country.
Last April the opposition organized a demonstration offended by
some 30.000 people. Having in mind that only Belgrade has 2 million
residents, that is very low support. Last May they tried with another
demonstration offended by not more than 15.000 people. Last June they
organized the third demonstration attended by only a couple of thousand
people. And just for comparison: the inauguration of the newly
constructed
bridge over the Danube in Novi Sad by President Milosevic in June was
attended by hundreds of thousands of people. You need to judge these
facts
by yourself ? whom and what kind of policy the people support and whom
and
what they do not support.
Q: We have heard that some countries are advocating the
alleviation of sanctions against Yugoslavia. What is your opinion of
that?
A: Yes, indeed. More or less everyone now recognizes that
sanctions do not solve but rather cause many problems, that they
represent
the most massive violation of human rights and that they are
counterproductive. At this time, out of 15 members of the EU, only one ?
Britain ? is still in favor of sanctions. All the others are against.
Hopefully those responsible in London may also soon accept the will of
the
majority in the EU.
We highly appreciate calls for removal of sanctions from many
European countries. Just to mention the actions of the Russian Duma,
that
of 30 Swedish MPs and a big group of Italian MPs, including the Chairman
of
the Italian Parliament. The British parliamentary group has collected
10.000 signatures to urge the British Government to lift the sanctions.
We
believe that the sanctions are a crime against humanity and we call for
the
immediate lifting of all sanctions anywhere in the world. They solve
nothing. They only cause suffering.
--------- COORDINAMENTO ROMANO PER LA JUGOSLAVIA -----------
RIMSKI SAVEZ ZA JUGOSLAVIJU
e-mail: crj@... - URL: http://marx2001.org/crj
http://www.egroups.com/group/crj-mailinglist/
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