Informazione
Inizio del messaggio inoltrato:
> Da: "Abconlus" <info @ abconlus.it>
> Data: Lun 7 Giu 2004 06:38:32 Europe/Rome
> A: ABC - A, B, C, Solidarietà e pace <abcsolidarieta @ tiscalinet.it>
> Oggetto: da ABC - Relazione viaggio in Serbia e Repubblika Sprspa
> maggio 2004
> Rispondere-A: <info @ abconlus.it>
>
> Gentili amici,
> in allegato la relazione del recente viaggio nelle Repubbliche di
> Srbja i Cerna Gora e Srpska.
> Cordiali saluti. ABC
Relazione sul viaggio di maggio in Serbia e Bosnia
(15 – 27 maggio 2004)
Colpiti al cuore e… un po’ fuori di testa!
Colpiti al cuore e… un po’ fuori di testa! Cosa vuol dire?
Semplicemente che stiamo facendo una cosa fuori dell’ordinario, almeno
per “A, B, C, solidarietà e pace - ONLUS”: stiamo tentando di mantenere
il numero di giovani affidati a qualunque costo, anche chiedendone
altri senza prima avere sentito, come facciamo di solito, i vecchi
sostenitori se vorranno affidarne un altro o lasciare il progetto.
Proseguiranno? Speriamo di sì.
Oggi, tra Serbia e Bosnia, siamo a quasi 600 bambini (595 per
l’esattezza), due anni fa erano 700.
Oggi diciamo:
non vogliamo scendere sotto i 600 bambini affidati.
dobbiamo, quindi, recuperarne cinque e mantenere gli altri. Stiamo
tentando di fare questo perché c’è ancora bisogno di aiuto.
Non possiamo dimenticare alcune cose: quanto è accaduto a quella gente
è anche colpa nostra; due, sono nostri vicini e ci divide da loro un
braccio di mare; tre, ci amano, nonostante tutto; quattro, hanno
passato un sacco di guai e ancora ne passano.
Non sappiamo quello che sarà possibile fare nel futuro prossimo.
Dipende da voi, dalla vostra volontà di continuare a sostenere il
progetto di affido a distanza di giovani serbi e bosniaci; dalla nostra
capacità di comunicare come stanno veramente le cose.
Scusate, ora cominciamo a raccontarvi quello che abbiamo visto.
Domenica 16 - Siamo a Backa Topola, in Vojvodina. Seduti davanti al
televisore, in casa di amici, facciamo lezione di Politica. Vediamo
scorrere sul piccolo schermo le immagini di quelli che saranno i
protagonisti delle elezioni presidenziali del 13 giugno. Il favorito,
Tomislav Nikolic del Partito radicale serbo (per intenderci quello di
Seselj, in prigione all’Aja) accreditato, secondo uno degli ultimi
sondaggi, con il 29,9% dei voti, seguito da Boris Tadic (18,8%) del
Partito democratico (quello di Zoran Djindjic), arriva, buon ultimo, il
“Signor nessuno”, come lo hanno ribattezzato alcuni giornali serbi,
vale a dire Dragan Marsicanin, candidato di governo del Partito
democratico serbo (quello di Kostunica). Si attaccano tra loro e ognuno
parla male dell’altro. I problemi sono tanti, enormi! Riusciamo a
capire che l’attuale governo, di minoranza, è formato dal DSS (Partito
Democratico Serbo, conservatore), dal G17 (centrista liberale) e dal
SPO (Movimento per il Rinnovamento Serbo, monarchici conservatori), il
tutto con l’appoggio esterno del SPS (Partito socialista serbo, quello
di Milosevic). Nonostante il numero limitato dei seggi ottenuti (il
primo partito alle ultime politiche dello scorso dicembre è stato Il
Partito Radicale Serbo, ultranazionalista, che ha conquistato 82 dei
250 seggi del parlamento serbo, mentre il secondo, appunto quello di
Kostunica, ne ha presi 53 e quello del defunto Djindjic 37) Kostunica è
stato capace di assicurare al suo partito nove ministeri su 17 e
controlla, così, le cose importanti: economia, polizia, scuola ed
esercito. Anche a Backa Topola si usa fare lo “zapping” e così ci
ritroviamo sulla rete (una delle due che ha) di Bogoljub Karic,
candidato outsider alle presidenziali e uomo più ricco della Serbia,
proprio nel momento in cui nomina il partito che, comunque andranno le
presidenziali, intende fondare: “Napred Serbia”, vale a dire: “Forza
Serbia”. Sentiamo anche il nome del nostro primo ministro, Silvio
Berlusconi, quando, rispondendo alla domanda di un giornalista, Karic
dice: “abbiamo molto in comune”.
I politici hanno i macro-problemi da risolvere, la gente comune,
invece, deve confrontarsi con i maxi-problemi quotidiani. Quali?
Semplificando, pane e lavoro. Ce ne rendiamo conto quando cominciamo il
nostro giro nelle scuole e nelle fabbriche per consegnare le borse di
studio.
Lunedì 17 - La nostra prima tappa è Kriavaja, una scuola ad una decina
di chilometri da Backa Topola. Tutti, come sempre, gentili e cordiali.
Ci aspetta una sorpresa: tre fratellini, Nicola Gianluca (10 anni),
Stefano (9) e Cinzia (8), oriundi italiani. Mamma serba e padre
italiano (evidentemente molto prolifico, in tre anni tre figli). Mamma
ora in Serbia, sola e povera e senza alcun aiuto, papà italiano
“riparato” chissà dove. Situazione disperata, come tante altre. Non
possiamo fare finta di niente anche perché restiamo interdetti a
sentirli parlare italiano! Li aiutiamo in qualche maniera. Le cose non
sono quasi mai semplici e le emergenze si rincorrono, così, nella
scuola ungherese “Caki Lajos”, veniamo a sapere che c’è un bambino
pressoché denutrito. Ma perché non ci pensano loro? Ci pensano, ma i
casi sono tanti e se possono coinvolgere qualcun altro, tanto meglio.
E’ giusto! Interveniamo anche qui. Pensiamo: è un bambino
serbo-ungherese (ne abbiamo affidati anche altri) e, nel nostro
“piccolissimo”, vogliamo dare il nostro contributo al dialogo tra la
comunità ungherese e quella serba in una cittadina, Backa Topola, e in
una regione, la Backa (che insieme alla Srem e alla Banat forma la
Vojvodina), che si sta complicando la vita. Infatti, le forze
autonomiste sono aumentate, tanto che nello scorso aprile hanno
organizzato una “convention” con lo scopo di formare una coalizione
unitaria in vista delle prossime elezioni locali. Cosa chiedono? Alcuni
di andare, con tutta la terra, in Ungheria, altri si rivolgono alla
comunità internazionale perché difenda le ambizioni della provincia
autonoma a divenire “una moderna regione europea”, mentre i serbi, la
maggioranza assoluta, cominciano a temere la vichiana teoria dei corsi
e ricorsi storici, anche perché la ferita del Kosovo è ancora aperta.
Non vogliamo interferire in nulla, non è nel nostro modo di lavorare,
ma, alla prima occasione, vorremmo chiedere alla direttrice della “Caki
Lajos” (VEDERE CHI E’) perché va in Ungheria a comprare i libri
scolastici per i suoi alunni quando ce ne sono di serbi, naturalmente
in ungherese, ottimi. In questo contesto, sarebbe anche interessante
capire perché il governo ungherese eroga crediti agli ungheresi in
Vojvodina per consentirgli di comprare le aziende serbe che con la
privatizzazione sono in svendita. Chi ha ragione? Tutti e nessuno, come
il solito.
Anche con i bambini funziona così. Ci sono cose incomprensibili che
ormai accettiamo rassegnati: la mamma di una bambina di nome Jelena
rifiuta la nostra offerta di far controllare da un dermatologo la sua
piccola che ha la guancia sinistra rovinata da una dermatite o da un
angioma. Ci dice semplicemente e graziosamente: “No grazie!”. Perché?
Sembrerebbe appartenere ad una non meglio identificata setta (forse
quella del “Golgota”? Alcuni dicono sovvenzionata da servizi segreti
occidentali) che gli ha insegnato la rassegnazione, ad accettare quel
che arriva dal Cielo, in questo caso, probabilmente, le conseguenze
ambientali dell’inquinamento da bombardamenti o per colpa dell’acqua
inquinatissima del Canale grande di Backa, parte integrante
dell’idrosistema Danubio-Tisa-Danubio, che non si riesce a bonificare
per un conflitto di competenze, anche se il governo norvegese ha già
stanziato un milione e mezzo di Euro per l’opera di risanamento.
Martedì 18 – Andiamo a Nov Sad, alla scuola “Svetozar Markovic Toza”.
Novi Sad, seconda città serba e capoluogo della Vojvodina, presenta un
quadro politico opposto a quello nazionale: sono i Ds (quelli di
Diindjic, per intenderci) a governare, mentre chi gestisce il governo
centrale qui è all’opposizione. La Vojvodina, e in particolare Novi
Sad, è un po’ il bastian contrario dl Paese: il partito di maggioranza
relativa a livello nazionale, i Radicali, qui è stato emarginato con
successo, ed anche i Dss, che governano insieme con altri il Paese,
sono all’opposizione. Sarà forse perché tre dei sessanta ponti
bombardati sono a Novi Sad? L’”infarto” fluviale, come qualcuno chiama
il danno economico causato dallo sprofondamento di sei ponti sul
Danubio, ha complicato la vita un po’ a tutti: serbi, per ovvi motivi,
ungheresi, perché sono costretti a far fare a grano e mais assurdi
itinerari via terra, tedeschi e austriaci perché non arrivano più,
dall’Ucraina e dalla Romania cemento e materiale siderurgico.
Comunque: a dicembre, grazie soprattutto agli aiuti dei paesi
“danubiani” saranno ultimati i lavori al ponte della Libertà. Gli
altri ponti? Uno è finito e il terzo è in progetto. Ancora oggi, il
ponte provvisorio che unisce la collina all’università, ogni due
giorni, è aperto per consentire il passaggio delle chiatte con i loro
carichi.
Arriviamo davanti alla scuola. Abbiamo una foto fatta pochi giorni dopo
i bombardamenti (maggio ’99) dove si vedono i danni causati da una
bomba impazzita. Un’auto con le ruote verso il cielo ribaltata dallo
spostamento d’aria ricoperta di terra. Dietro, le finestre dissestate
della scuola. Cerchiamo lo stesso luogo e facciamo una foto, il prima e
il dopo, il passato, da non dimenticare, e il presente da cambiare.
Il direttore, Dragan, lentamente sta cominciando ad apprezzare la
nostra presenza. S'intrattiene a parlare con noi e ci accompagna a
visitare la scuola. Arranchiamo dietro di lui arrampicandoci sui due
piani dell’edificio: aula di fisica, di chimica, tecnica, inglese,
ungherese, lingua madre, ecc. E’ orgoglioso e frettoloso! Sempre meglio
del freddo distacco di due anni fa quando subentrò al signor Milorad
costretto a fare un bel salto indietro “degradato” a fare il maestro!
Ci accompagna persino all’esterno della scuola per mostrarci il luogo
dell’esplosione della bomba e racconta che ha aperto un cratere con un
diametro di 15 metri. Le aule di chimica e fisica ne portano, ancora
oggi, i segni. Distribuiamo le quote ed una bambina, alla domanda
cattiva “cosa farai con la borsa di studio?”, risponde: “ho promesso ad
una mia amica di pagargli il gelato”. Servono altre parole? Si parte
subito per Belgrado.
A Belgrado approdiamo dopo due ore. Belgrado è caotica, ed anche la
scuola non si sottrae a questa testimonianza di vita. La scuola è nel
sobborgo di Rakovica dove, il 17 aprile 1999, in una notte di “intenso
fuoco” fu bombardata una caserma che sorgeva in mezzo alle abitazioni,
a poche decine di metri dalla scuola “Nikola Tesla”. Per non fare
aspettare i genitori già raccolti in una grande aula andiamo subito a
consegnare le borse di studio. Riconosciamo quasi tutti. Qui, come
sempre, non riusciamo a sottrarci alle tradizionali mini-controversie:
alla fine della distribuzione delle borse di studio si presentano delle
mamme e dei papà di ragazzi ormai usciti dal progetto. Più o meno
consapevolmente, e comunque comprensibilmente, come diciamo a Roma, “ci
provano”. Spieghiamo loro che non abbiamo il denaro e non possiamo
consegnare loro alcuna quota. Lo sanno e, con cordialità, nonostante il
diniego, ci salutano e se ne vanno. Andiamo nell’ufficio del direttore.
C’è anche una vecchia amica di ABC, che ha avuto importanti
responsabilità nel dicastero della Sanità serba. Cominciamo a parlare
con il direttore e definiamo tutte le situazioni lasciate in sospeso a
novembre. Molte famiglie sono state costrette a cambiare casa ed è
stato impossibile rintracciarle, altre verranno la prossima volta. I
problemi non mancano. Ne parliamo tutti insieme. La vita è difficile, i
prezzi sono stabili (inevitabilmente), ma la vita delle famiglie è
sempre più difficile e, anche se l’infazione è sotto controllo e in tre
anni è scesa dal 40,7% del 2001 al 7,8% del 2003 (dati ufficiali della
Banca Nazionale Serba), chi si alza la mattina e deve mangiare non è
confortato da questo dato. Ci sono, infatti, sempre meno soldi e, da un
documento della Banca che ci siamo portati dietro, emerge un elemento
molto negativo: rispetto al 2002 la percentuale dei disoccupati è
aumentata dal 31,2% al 33,9% della forza lavoro (in realtà è di almeno
il 40% con punte pià alte in alcune aree del Paese). Troveremo
conferma di questi dati a Kragujevac dove arriviamo la sera.
Mercoledì 19 e giovedì 20 – Siamo a Kragujevac. Abbiamo l’intenzione di
cercare dati precisi sulla situazione sanitaria dei lavoratori, che
sono poi i papà e le mamme di tutti i ragazzi affidati. Non ne
troviamo. C’è “legittima reticenza” e chi promette documenti (analisi e
altro) ci delude. Pazienza! Abbiamo notizia, verbalmente, che i morti
ci sono e che le malattie sono in aumento. Spesso, nel giro di un mese,
si svelano patologie letali e piccoli manifesti mortuari tappezzano gli
alberi che conducono al cancello della Zastava. Riusciamo però, in ogni
caso, a trovare il testo trascritto e tradotto di un’intervista, andata
in onda sull’emittente serba B92 il 15 aprile scorso, fatta ad alcuni
operai che hanno partecipato al risanamento della Zastava. Dragan
Stojanovic, responsabile di una delle équipe che ha partecipato alla
bonifica della fabbrica, spiega che la rimozione delle macerie è stata
fatta senza alcuna precauzione e che in un mese ci sono stati sei
funerali. Paunovic, invece, è stato operato ed ha un polmone in meno.
Con i 4.500 dinari (circa 65 euro) del sussidio deve sopravvivere e
comprare le medicine. In tutto questo, asseriscono entrambi, l’aspetto
che dispiace di più è che l’azienda non riconosce l’esistenza di questi
problemi e si defila da qualsiasi sostegno agli operai che hanno avuto
patologie derivate dal lavoro all’interno della fabbrica. Dice Matic:
“se l’uranio si può bere come una limonata io mi scuserò”. Ma,
evidentemente, l’uranio delle bombe non è limonata anche perché, non a
caso, lo scorso novembre siamo stati testimoni diretti della presenza
di una delegazione dell’UNEP (United Nations Environmental Programme,
Programma Ambientale delle Nazioni Unite). La commissione dell’UNEP
cosa stava facendo a Kragujevac? Era in ferie? Probabilmente ha ragione
Knut Krusewitz, professore all’università di Berlino di Pianificazione
ambientale, che ha tentato, inascoltato, di spiegare al mondo quello
che era accaduto, contrapponendo la sua relazione a quella dell’UNEP.
Riportiamo soltanto le ultime righe del suo lavoro: “si tratta del
significativo danneggiamento delle risorse naturali ed economiche, in
un caso per lo sprigionamento di PCDDs (la diossina di Seveso) e di
PCDs e per l’altro per l’effetto di prodotti radiotossici e
chemiotossici derivati dalla disintegrazione delle munizioni all’uranio
impoverito. I cancerogeni saranno immagazzinati prevalentemente nei
prodotti agricoli e, al 95%, introdotti nella catena alimentare”. Siamo
propensi a dare ragione a lui e all’operaio Matic: l’uranio e la
diossina non sono limonata.
In due giorni a Kragujevac distribuiamo più di 250 borse di studio. I
ragazzi ci sono quasi tutti. La maggior parte dei non presenti sono
impegnati nei compiti in classe. Continuamo a fare foto. Alla fine del
viaggio saranno più di 1.200. I ragazzi assenti le consegneranno al
sindacato che le spedirà in Italia. Durante la distribuzione delle
quote vediamo le stesse persone. C’è “il ministro” (il suo soprannome
deriva dal fatto che ha preso a schiaffi il vecchio ministro del
Lavoro), il marito della signora Al Mamuri tornato dall’Iraq in Serbia
per eludere il destino beffardo, dopo un periodo di “riposo” con le tre
mogli irachene e per sfuggire alla situazione locale. La sera partiamo
per Nis.
Venerdì 21 – Tomasevic Bojana, alla Min Fitip, una delle affidate,
arriva accompagnata dal nonno. Sì, lo riconoscono, è proprio lui, l’ex
direttore generale della fabbrica. Un signore simpatico e dimesso che
sorride senza alcun compiacimento e che firma la ricevuta della borsa
di studio per sua nipote come uno dei tanti operai che sono stati suoi
dipendenti. Arrivano tutti, pian piano. Ci salutano. Vorremmo scattare
qualche foto all’interno della fabbrica. Ci spiegano che non è
possibile. Lo sapevamo, ma abbiamo tentato. Probabilmente anche la
Min-Fitip è nell’elenco delle aziende, grandi e piccole, in vendita.
Nel luglio 2001 è stata creata, appositamente, un’Agenzia per le
Privatizzazioni e, secondo i dati ufficiali che ha pubblicato, nel
2002, su 366 aziende in privatizzazione, 274 sono state vendute con un
introito di 350 milioni di dollari (fonte: Banca Nazionale Serba). A
quanto saranno vendute la Min-Fitip e l’Elktronska Industria? Ogni
volta che una fabbrica o un’azienda sono alienate aumentano il numero
dei disoccupati, la povertà, le malattie, la disperazione, la sfiducia
nelle istituzioni, la rabbia, e chi più ne ha più ne metta. Si è poveri
e lo si diventa sempre di più.
A Nis siamo ospiti di amici a Niska Banja dove, nel pomeriggio, andiamo
a distribuire le “skolska stipendia” nella scuola “Ivan Goran Kovacic”.
Nell’atrio ci attendono i ragazzi. Non appena entriamo
cominciano a cantare. Sono tornati da poco da una “gara canora” tra
tutte le scuole della Serbia e sono arrivati secondi. Sono bravi!
Subito dopo cominciamo a consegnare le borse di studio. I problemi
anche qui non mancano: cerchiamo di capire come affrontare tre
emergenze. Un bambino leucemico, un secondo con problemi di crescita e
la terza operata al cuore e con una deformazione del palato.
Tenteremo di trovare tra i tanti amici dell’associazione una
possibilità di cura per il piccolo leucemico, un farmaco, il
Genotropin, per il secondo, e faremo controllare in Serbia la terza dal
medico che l’ha in cura e che, coincidenza positiva, è il figliolo di
una nostra cara amica serba. Ci capita di chiedere a molti affidati se
hanno corrispondenza con i loro amici italiani, alcuni dicono di sì,
altri no, altri ancora ci dicono di avere scritto ma di non avere avuto
risposta. Spieghiamo a tutti che come per loro non c’è alcun obbligo a
corrispondere con i loro sostenitori, così non c’è per chi li aiuta.
Comunque, la “skolska stipendia” è già un segno d’amicizia importante e
tangibile.
Sabato 22, riposo. Con alcuni amici parliamo del Kosovo partendo da una
domanda: cosa ne pensate della possibilità, prefigurata da Kostunica,
di una cantonalizzazione (un’ amministrazione serba e albanese
all’interno della provincia sul modello della divisione interna della
Bosnia ed Erzegovina) partendo dal presupposto che un “paradiso
multietnico” non è realizzabile? Quasi tutti sono convinti che è
impossibile convivere con gli albanesi, la maggior parte vede nella
cantonalizzazione l’unica strada, pochi pensano che si debbano mandare
(dimenticando gli accordi internazionali che lo impediscono) esercito e
polizia serbi. Molti parlano bene dei militari italiani che hanno
difeso i serbi e i loro monasteri, dove possibile. Tutti dimentichiamo
due cose: 1) la Ue continua a sostenere un’unica soluzione: una regione
multietnica; 2) contro la cantonalizzazione si è schierato il leader
albanese Rugova il quale ha detto che è una cosa impossibile. Rugova,
d’altra parte, ormai si comporta da verso e conciliante padrone di
casa: ha promesso ai serbi che farà ricostruire le loro case e le loro
chiese distrutte dai suoi amici lo scorso marzo.
Domenica 23. La famiglia Zuza parte per l’America. Profughi dalla
Bosnia, per la precisione da Konjic, tra Mostar e Sarajevo, da più
dieci anni vivono, madre, padre e due figli, un maschio, Miroslav, 15
anni, e una femmina (affidata), Jovana, 16 anni, nell’hotel “Serbja” di
Niska Banja. Il Commissariato per i rifugiati delle Nazioni Unite gli
ha dato questa possibilità. Partono per Las Vegas. Andiamo a salutarli,
insieme ad altri amici. Manca un’ora alla partenza. Piangono e noi con
loro. Ci tratteniamo il tempo per augurargli ogni bene. Lo meritano.
Hanno il coraggio della disperazione indispensabile per un passo del
genere. Vorremmo poter comunicare meglio di quanto non sappiamo fare
quello che percepiamo in loro: paura dell’ignoto e speranza in un
futuro migliore. Alle 8 prendono i loro bagagli. Arriva l’autobus per
Belgrado. La disperazione dei genitori, vecchi, che sanno di non poter
più vedere i loro figli; il pianto degli amici, giovani, che presto
dimenticheranno. Non rischiamo il patetico! Andiamo avanti!
Sono i ragazzi e i genitori della piccola scuola di Donja Vrezina, dove
andiamo dopo la partenza della famiglia Zuza, a farci dimenticare la
tristezza di queste prime ore di domenica. Mentre distribuiamo le quote
arriva, a piedi, un vecchio giornalista che vuole sapere qualcosa sul
nostro lavoro. E’ stato a Roma per diversi anni ed ora è rientrato in
Serbia e per arrotondare una pensione inesistente si è messo a fare il
“free-lance”. Fa foto e si informa. Il Comitato dei genitori della
scuolina ha preparato un gran rinfresco. Ci dicono che i serbi sono
fatti così: sono disposti a non mangiare pur di accogliere bene degli
amici. I bambini sono tutti lì ed anche i genitori che si prendono in
giro. Il “soggetto” è soprattutto il marito di una bella signora che
torna ogni due mesi dalla Slovenia dove è andato è riuscito a trovare
lavoro.
Facili allusioni, ma meno facile ironia quella del destino di Predrag:
trovare lavoro proprio dove avvennero i primi scontri, nel giugno del
1991, tra la Difesa territoriale slovena e l’armata jugoslava. Ma sono
passati 13 anni… e quasi tutti bambini che oggi hanno preso la “skolska
stipendjia” , per fortuna, a quel tempo non erano neanche nati. E
questa è la grande speranza, dimenticare e ricominciare!
Lunedì 24 – Fa un freddo cane! All’orizzonte vediamo le montagne
bulgare. Entriamo nell’Elektronska Indusrtrija, ex colosso locale e
nazionale che produceva elettrodomestici. All’E.I. le cose vanno ancor
peggio che alla Min- Fitip. Dei circa 20.000 dipendenti sono 800 quelli
che lavorano e 2.400 quelli a disposizione che sperano di essere
chiamati. Gli altri sono disoccupati. Le retribuzioni vanno dai 4.000
ai 18.000 dinari , vale a dire da 60 a 250 euro (a prendere 18.000
dinari sono soltanto 15 tecnici superspecializzati). Andiamo dai
bambini e dai genitori riuniti, come il solito, nella vastissima mensa.
Stiamo al buio: non si accende la luce e non c’è acqua. Ci si è
abituati a risparmiare in qualsiasi circostanza e per tutto. Cominciamo
a chiamare e, come abbiamo fatto, in tutte le scuole e le fabbriche,
spieghiamo che scatteremo due foto da spedire ai loro amici italiani.
Sono lì “docili” e pazienti. Cominciamo la consegna delle “skolska
stipendia” e, com’è avvenuto in tutti i posti dove siamo stati, anche
qui sul volto di questa gente rassegnazione. Parlando con loro sentiamo
che sono scoraggiati. Hanno poche speranze nel futuro e credono poco
nella classe politica che li governa. Sono sempre gli stessi (non
possiamo dargli torto), anche i partiti sono sempre gli stessi (anche
questo è vero), se capita la disgrazia di ammalarsi ci si può anche
rassegnare a morire (verissimo, tanto che tutt’intorno è tappezzato di
piccoli manifesti con l’annuncio della morte di qualcuno, spesso
prematuramente), il lavoro non c’è e i giovani non hanno un futuro. C’è
anche chi ha un sussulto e si arrabbia mentre parla, ma la maggior
parte sono quieti.
Da un caro amico, riusciamo ad avere, per la prima volta durante il
nostro viaggio, un documento ufficiale sottoscritto dal direttore
dell’Ufficio di collocamento. Proviamo a capirci qualcosa. Scopriamo
che i disoccupati a Nis, al 5 aprile scorso, sono 46.036 dei quali
24.488 donne. I posti disponibili, all’Ufficio di collocamento, sono
invece 5.540 (2.363 a tempo indeterminato e 3.177 a termine). Proviamo
a capire di quale tipo di lavori si tratta, ma non ci riusciamo.
Facendo i conti a “maniera nostra” la percentuale ufficiale dei
disoccupati a Nis, anche se non possiamo essere precisi perché non
conosciamo il totale della forza lavoro locale, dovrebbe essere di
circa il 40% (la Banca Nazionale Serba parla, per il 2003, di 33,7%).
Con i sindacalisti cerchiamo di capire poi la situazione politica. E’
praticamente dall’inizio del viaggio che andiamo in giro con un pezzo
di carta, dove abbiamo disegnato un semicerchio (il Parlamento serbo) e
scritto, cercando di collocarli nella loro posizione “fisiologica” , i
nomi dei partiti. Da questo schema esatto e semplice, ne viene fuori
un’immagine sbilanciata completamente a destra del Parlamento, anche se
il Partito democratico (ex Djindjic) lo scorso ottobre è entrato
nell’Internazionale socialista. A sinistra sembrerebbe essere presente
soltanto il Partito socialista serbo (ex Milosevic), messo storicamente
fuori gioco dagli eventi. Tutti, dopo aver osservato lo schema,
concordano che è una situazione sbagliata. Alcuni affermano che ci sono
dei piccoli partiti a sinistra, altri che hanno tentato di riempire
questo vuoto con un nuovo partito il “Labour”, ma per ora l’esperienza
è fallita, altri ancora che un partito di sinistra c’è, quello di
Milosevic. Tutti concordano su una cosa: non c’è nessuna figura
politica, a sinistra, capace di raccogliere consensi e democratizzare
così un parlamento sbilanciato e litigioso.
Martedì 25 – Partenza per la Bosnia. Nel primo pomeriggio siamo a
Rogatica alla scuola “Sveti Sava”. Sono 1.200 i bambini che la
frequentano distribuiti su tre turni (si comincia alle 7,20 e si
finisce alle 18 circa). Quest’anno hanno cominciato la scuola anche
bambini di sei anni. Qui, contrariamente a quanto avviene in Serbia (la
legge non ha trovato attuazione in seguito al cambiamento del governo),
la riforma della scuola è stata applicata. Siamo un po’ confusi!
Entriamo con bambini e genitori in un’aula per distribuire le quote di
affido. Una mamma sale al primo piano della scuola arracampicandosi con
l’aiuto di una stampella. Non sta bene, ma vuole salutarci egualmente.
Comincia la distribuzione delle “borse di studio”. Un Papà è solo: il
piccolo Mihali è all’ospedale. Pochi mesi fa è morta la moglie e ora il
bambino, paraplegico, sta accusando il colpo. Storie di disperazione.
Vorremmo evitare di raccontarle, ma sono testimonianze importanti. Ci
sono però anche i momenti lieti: l’accoglienza di genitori e ragazzi,
le letterine per gli affidatari, i piccoli regali fatti con il cuore e
il sacrifico, le foto fatte insieme.
Chiacchieriamo un po’ con il vice preside della scuola. Sarà il tempo
che passa, ma ci rendiamo conto che c’è una maggiore disponibilità, in
tutti, a parlare di più, ad affrontare argomenti da anni elusi (con
l’eccezione di Lukavica, dove il direttore, continua a dirci, in
italiano, “Milan, grande squadra”). Durante il colloquio annotiamo
delle cose significative dette dal nostro amico: “passo la frontiera
con la Serbia decine di volte al mese e ogni volta devo mostrare il
passaporto. Io sono serbo, come i serbi di Serbia! E’ umilitante!”.
“Davanti c’è una persona, ma dietro ce n’è sempre un’altra”. “In ogni
casa della Republika Srpska, anche la più sperduta, l’ospite è sacro e
ci sarà sempre per lui un pasto!”. Stereotipi? No.
Risaliamo in macchina e via verso Pale, ex roccaforte di Radovan
Karadzic, capo dei serbi di Bosnia e ricercato numero uno per crimini
di guerra. Pale, ex capitale della Republika scalzata dalla più
moderata Banja Luka. La casa dove siamo ospitati è vicinissima alla
chiesa e alla canonica dove il primo aprile scorso, un commando della
Sfor (veniamo a sapere casualmente da “alcuni italiani” che si sarebbe
trattato di militari americani che “non vanno per il sottile”) ha fatto
saltare la porta con una carica di esplosivo ferendo gravemente il
parroco e il figlio. “L’esplosione ha frantumato i vetri delle
abitazioni circostanti (ad una sessantina di metri perché chiesa e
canonica sono al centro di una piazza-giardino) e non ci si poteva
affacciare perché i militari che circondavano gli edifici puntavano i
fucili”, ci dicono. Ma lasciamo stare queste cose!
Mercoledì 26 – La scuola “Pale” di Pale nel 2005 compirà cent’anni! Non
pochi! I bambini affidati sono una trentina e quasi tutti per arrivare
a scuola devono percorrere, ogni giorno, diversi chilometri a piedi. Ad
attenderci c’è anche Donato, un socio di San Donato Milanese, che è
venuto a trovare il suo “figlioccio”, Bosko, ed è ospite della famiglia
del bambino. E’ entusiasta di questa esperienza e ci parla di come è
stato accolto e della situazione difficile della famiglia. Per lui è
stata organizzata una gran festa alla quale hanno partecipato tutti i
vicini.
Ognuno ha portato qualcosa e, in poco tempo, è stato allestito un vero
e proprio banchetto! Cominciamo a distribuire le borse di studio e
facciamo le foto. Al direttore chiediamo, come abbiamo fatto in tutte
le altre città, schede di nuovi ragazzi da affidare. Finiamo presto.
Vorremmo andare a fare una camminata nei boschi. Ce lo sconsigliano.
Ancora troppi posti contaminati da mine e ordigni inesplosi. Notizia
ufficiale: in Bosnia sono 1.366 i centri abitati contaminati e, secondo
il Centro per lo sminamento, sono registrati oltre 10.000 campi minati.
Meglio evitare per non correre il rischio di aumentare il numero delle
vittime, 1.048, registrate dalla fine della guerra (1995).
Nel pomeriggio andiamo a Lukavica, enclave serba alla periferia di
Sarajevo. Il direttore della scuola “Sveti Sava”, milanista
“sfegatato”, è alle prese con il Consiglio d’istituto e ci accoglie il
suo vice. Entriamo nell’aula dove ci aspettano i bambini con i
genitori. Tra loro Blazic Sasa, “recordboy”: undici tra fratelli e
sorelle. A vedere il papà, un poco malridotto, zoppica e si sostiene
con una stampella, non ci sembra possibile che sia così “prolifico”. Ci
asteniamo da commenti, anche se alcuni suggerimenti gli servirebbero.
Distribuiamo le quote e riceviamo tre baci da ciascun affidato. Arriva
anche il direttore e, dopo i saluti, ci chiede subito se vogliamo
aiutarlo a costruire una palestra. Infatti, la scuola di Pale è un dono
della cooperazione giapponese e loro costruiscono le scuole senza
palestre. Gli diciamo che siamo una piccola associazione che non può
permettersi una spesa del genere. Di fronte al diniego ci svela che ha,
comunque, un probabile donatore. E’ una vecchia volpe mr. Milovan. Uomo
eccezionale, capace di fare il bene dei suoi alunni senza esporre se
stesso e chicchessia. Cauto al punto di rispondere “tutto OK” alla
banale domanda: “come vanno le cose a Lukavica?”. Ma basta dare
un’occhiata ai bambini e ai genitori per capire che le cose non sono
per niente OK a Lukavica che, come tutta la Republika Srpska, ha
problemi enormi: 43% di disoccupazione, miseria e fame, sporcizia e
disperazione. Giovedì ripartiamo per l’Italia!
> Da: "Abconlus" <info @ abconlus.it>
> Data: Lun 7 Giu 2004 06:38:32 Europe/Rome
> A: ABC - A, B, C, Solidarietà e pace <abcsolidarieta @ tiscalinet.it>
> Oggetto: da ABC - Relazione viaggio in Serbia e Repubblika Sprspa
> maggio 2004
> Rispondere-A: <info @ abconlus.it>
>
> Gentili amici,
> in allegato la relazione del recente viaggio nelle Repubbliche di
> Srbja i Cerna Gora e Srpska.
> Cordiali saluti. ABC
Relazione sul viaggio di maggio in Serbia e Bosnia
(15 – 27 maggio 2004)
Colpiti al cuore e… un po’ fuori di testa!
Colpiti al cuore e… un po’ fuori di testa! Cosa vuol dire?
Semplicemente che stiamo facendo una cosa fuori dell’ordinario, almeno
per “A, B, C, solidarietà e pace - ONLUS”: stiamo tentando di mantenere
il numero di giovani affidati a qualunque costo, anche chiedendone
altri senza prima avere sentito, come facciamo di solito, i vecchi
sostenitori se vorranno affidarne un altro o lasciare il progetto.
Proseguiranno? Speriamo di sì.
Oggi, tra Serbia e Bosnia, siamo a quasi 600 bambini (595 per
l’esattezza), due anni fa erano 700.
Oggi diciamo:
non vogliamo scendere sotto i 600 bambini affidati.
dobbiamo, quindi, recuperarne cinque e mantenere gli altri. Stiamo
tentando di fare questo perché c’è ancora bisogno di aiuto.
Non possiamo dimenticare alcune cose: quanto è accaduto a quella gente
è anche colpa nostra; due, sono nostri vicini e ci divide da loro un
braccio di mare; tre, ci amano, nonostante tutto; quattro, hanno
passato un sacco di guai e ancora ne passano.
Non sappiamo quello che sarà possibile fare nel futuro prossimo.
Dipende da voi, dalla vostra volontà di continuare a sostenere il
progetto di affido a distanza di giovani serbi e bosniaci; dalla nostra
capacità di comunicare come stanno veramente le cose.
Scusate, ora cominciamo a raccontarvi quello che abbiamo visto.
Domenica 16 - Siamo a Backa Topola, in Vojvodina. Seduti davanti al
televisore, in casa di amici, facciamo lezione di Politica. Vediamo
scorrere sul piccolo schermo le immagini di quelli che saranno i
protagonisti delle elezioni presidenziali del 13 giugno. Il favorito,
Tomislav Nikolic del Partito radicale serbo (per intenderci quello di
Seselj, in prigione all’Aja) accreditato, secondo uno degli ultimi
sondaggi, con il 29,9% dei voti, seguito da Boris Tadic (18,8%) del
Partito democratico (quello di Zoran Djindjic), arriva, buon ultimo, il
“Signor nessuno”, come lo hanno ribattezzato alcuni giornali serbi,
vale a dire Dragan Marsicanin, candidato di governo del Partito
democratico serbo (quello di Kostunica). Si attaccano tra loro e ognuno
parla male dell’altro. I problemi sono tanti, enormi! Riusciamo a
capire che l’attuale governo, di minoranza, è formato dal DSS (Partito
Democratico Serbo, conservatore), dal G17 (centrista liberale) e dal
SPO (Movimento per il Rinnovamento Serbo, monarchici conservatori), il
tutto con l’appoggio esterno del SPS (Partito socialista serbo, quello
di Milosevic). Nonostante il numero limitato dei seggi ottenuti (il
primo partito alle ultime politiche dello scorso dicembre è stato Il
Partito Radicale Serbo, ultranazionalista, che ha conquistato 82 dei
250 seggi del parlamento serbo, mentre il secondo, appunto quello di
Kostunica, ne ha presi 53 e quello del defunto Djindjic 37) Kostunica è
stato capace di assicurare al suo partito nove ministeri su 17 e
controlla, così, le cose importanti: economia, polizia, scuola ed
esercito. Anche a Backa Topola si usa fare lo “zapping” e così ci
ritroviamo sulla rete (una delle due che ha) di Bogoljub Karic,
candidato outsider alle presidenziali e uomo più ricco della Serbia,
proprio nel momento in cui nomina il partito che, comunque andranno le
presidenziali, intende fondare: “Napred Serbia”, vale a dire: “Forza
Serbia”. Sentiamo anche il nome del nostro primo ministro, Silvio
Berlusconi, quando, rispondendo alla domanda di un giornalista, Karic
dice: “abbiamo molto in comune”.
I politici hanno i macro-problemi da risolvere, la gente comune,
invece, deve confrontarsi con i maxi-problemi quotidiani. Quali?
Semplificando, pane e lavoro. Ce ne rendiamo conto quando cominciamo il
nostro giro nelle scuole e nelle fabbriche per consegnare le borse di
studio.
Lunedì 17 - La nostra prima tappa è Kriavaja, una scuola ad una decina
di chilometri da Backa Topola. Tutti, come sempre, gentili e cordiali.
Ci aspetta una sorpresa: tre fratellini, Nicola Gianluca (10 anni),
Stefano (9) e Cinzia (8), oriundi italiani. Mamma serba e padre
italiano (evidentemente molto prolifico, in tre anni tre figli). Mamma
ora in Serbia, sola e povera e senza alcun aiuto, papà italiano
“riparato” chissà dove. Situazione disperata, come tante altre. Non
possiamo fare finta di niente anche perché restiamo interdetti a
sentirli parlare italiano! Li aiutiamo in qualche maniera. Le cose non
sono quasi mai semplici e le emergenze si rincorrono, così, nella
scuola ungherese “Caki Lajos”, veniamo a sapere che c’è un bambino
pressoché denutrito. Ma perché non ci pensano loro? Ci pensano, ma i
casi sono tanti e se possono coinvolgere qualcun altro, tanto meglio.
E’ giusto! Interveniamo anche qui. Pensiamo: è un bambino
serbo-ungherese (ne abbiamo affidati anche altri) e, nel nostro
“piccolissimo”, vogliamo dare il nostro contributo al dialogo tra la
comunità ungherese e quella serba in una cittadina, Backa Topola, e in
una regione, la Backa (che insieme alla Srem e alla Banat forma la
Vojvodina), che si sta complicando la vita. Infatti, le forze
autonomiste sono aumentate, tanto che nello scorso aprile hanno
organizzato una “convention” con lo scopo di formare una coalizione
unitaria in vista delle prossime elezioni locali. Cosa chiedono? Alcuni
di andare, con tutta la terra, in Ungheria, altri si rivolgono alla
comunità internazionale perché difenda le ambizioni della provincia
autonoma a divenire “una moderna regione europea”, mentre i serbi, la
maggioranza assoluta, cominciano a temere la vichiana teoria dei corsi
e ricorsi storici, anche perché la ferita del Kosovo è ancora aperta.
Non vogliamo interferire in nulla, non è nel nostro modo di lavorare,
ma, alla prima occasione, vorremmo chiedere alla direttrice della “Caki
Lajos” (VEDERE CHI E’) perché va in Ungheria a comprare i libri
scolastici per i suoi alunni quando ce ne sono di serbi, naturalmente
in ungherese, ottimi. In questo contesto, sarebbe anche interessante
capire perché il governo ungherese eroga crediti agli ungheresi in
Vojvodina per consentirgli di comprare le aziende serbe che con la
privatizzazione sono in svendita. Chi ha ragione? Tutti e nessuno, come
il solito.
Anche con i bambini funziona così. Ci sono cose incomprensibili che
ormai accettiamo rassegnati: la mamma di una bambina di nome Jelena
rifiuta la nostra offerta di far controllare da un dermatologo la sua
piccola che ha la guancia sinistra rovinata da una dermatite o da un
angioma. Ci dice semplicemente e graziosamente: “No grazie!”. Perché?
Sembrerebbe appartenere ad una non meglio identificata setta (forse
quella del “Golgota”? Alcuni dicono sovvenzionata da servizi segreti
occidentali) che gli ha insegnato la rassegnazione, ad accettare quel
che arriva dal Cielo, in questo caso, probabilmente, le conseguenze
ambientali dell’inquinamento da bombardamenti o per colpa dell’acqua
inquinatissima del Canale grande di Backa, parte integrante
dell’idrosistema Danubio-Tisa-Danubio, che non si riesce a bonificare
per un conflitto di competenze, anche se il governo norvegese ha già
stanziato un milione e mezzo di Euro per l’opera di risanamento.
Martedì 18 – Andiamo a Nov Sad, alla scuola “Svetozar Markovic Toza”.
Novi Sad, seconda città serba e capoluogo della Vojvodina, presenta un
quadro politico opposto a quello nazionale: sono i Ds (quelli di
Diindjic, per intenderci) a governare, mentre chi gestisce il governo
centrale qui è all’opposizione. La Vojvodina, e in particolare Novi
Sad, è un po’ il bastian contrario dl Paese: il partito di maggioranza
relativa a livello nazionale, i Radicali, qui è stato emarginato con
successo, ed anche i Dss, che governano insieme con altri il Paese,
sono all’opposizione. Sarà forse perché tre dei sessanta ponti
bombardati sono a Novi Sad? L’”infarto” fluviale, come qualcuno chiama
il danno economico causato dallo sprofondamento di sei ponti sul
Danubio, ha complicato la vita un po’ a tutti: serbi, per ovvi motivi,
ungheresi, perché sono costretti a far fare a grano e mais assurdi
itinerari via terra, tedeschi e austriaci perché non arrivano più,
dall’Ucraina e dalla Romania cemento e materiale siderurgico.
Comunque: a dicembre, grazie soprattutto agli aiuti dei paesi
“danubiani” saranno ultimati i lavori al ponte della Libertà. Gli
altri ponti? Uno è finito e il terzo è in progetto. Ancora oggi, il
ponte provvisorio che unisce la collina all’università, ogni due
giorni, è aperto per consentire il passaggio delle chiatte con i loro
carichi.
Arriviamo davanti alla scuola. Abbiamo una foto fatta pochi giorni dopo
i bombardamenti (maggio ’99) dove si vedono i danni causati da una
bomba impazzita. Un’auto con le ruote verso il cielo ribaltata dallo
spostamento d’aria ricoperta di terra. Dietro, le finestre dissestate
della scuola. Cerchiamo lo stesso luogo e facciamo una foto, il prima e
il dopo, il passato, da non dimenticare, e il presente da cambiare.
Il direttore, Dragan, lentamente sta cominciando ad apprezzare la
nostra presenza. S'intrattiene a parlare con noi e ci accompagna a
visitare la scuola. Arranchiamo dietro di lui arrampicandoci sui due
piani dell’edificio: aula di fisica, di chimica, tecnica, inglese,
ungherese, lingua madre, ecc. E’ orgoglioso e frettoloso! Sempre meglio
del freddo distacco di due anni fa quando subentrò al signor Milorad
costretto a fare un bel salto indietro “degradato” a fare il maestro!
Ci accompagna persino all’esterno della scuola per mostrarci il luogo
dell’esplosione della bomba e racconta che ha aperto un cratere con un
diametro di 15 metri. Le aule di chimica e fisica ne portano, ancora
oggi, i segni. Distribuiamo le quote ed una bambina, alla domanda
cattiva “cosa farai con la borsa di studio?”, risponde: “ho promesso ad
una mia amica di pagargli il gelato”. Servono altre parole? Si parte
subito per Belgrado.
A Belgrado approdiamo dopo due ore. Belgrado è caotica, ed anche la
scuola non si sottrae a questa testimonianza di vita. La scuola è nel
sobborgo di Rakovica dove, il 17 aprile 1999, in una notte di “intenso
fuoco” fu bombardata una caserma che sorgeva in mezzo alle abitazioni,
a poche decine di metri dalla scuola “Nikola Tesla”. Per non fare
aspettare i genitori già raccolti in una grande aula andiamo subito a
consegnare le borse di studio. Riconosciamo quasi tutti. Qui, come
sempre, non riusciamo a sottrarci alle tradizionali mini-controversie:
alla fine della distribuzione delle borse di studio si presentano delle
mamme e dei papà di ragazzi ormai usciti dal progetto. Più o meno
consapevolmente, e comunque comprensibilmente, come diciamo a Roma, “ci
provano”. Spieghiamo loro che non abbiamo il denaro e non possiamo
consegnare loro alcuna quota. Lo sanno e, con cordialità, nonostante il
diniego, ci salutano e se ne vanno. Andiamo nell’ufficio del direttore.
C’è anche una vecchia amica di ABC, che ha avuto importanti
responsabilità nel dicastero della Sanità serba. Cominciamo a parlare
con il direttore e definiamo tutte le situazioni lasciate in sospeso a
novembre. Molte famiglie sono state costrette a cambiare casa ed è
stato impossibile rintracciarle, altre verranno la prossima volta. I
problemi non mancano. Ne parliamo tutti insieme. La vita è difficile, i
prezzi sono stabili (inevitabilmente), ma la vita delle famiglie è
sempre più difficile e, anche se l’infazione è sotto controllo e in tre
anni è scesa dal 40,7% del 2001 al 7,8% del 2003 (dati ufficiali della
Banca Nazionale Serba), chi si alza la mattina e deve mangiare non è
confortato da questo dato. Ci sono, infatti, sempre meno soldi e, da un
documento della Banca che ci siamo portati dietro, emerge un elemento
molto negativo: rispetto al 2002 la percentuale dei disoccupati è
aumentata dal 31,2% al 33,9% della forza lavoro (in realtà è di almeno
il 40% con punte pià alte in alcune aree del Paese). Troveremo
conferma di questi dati a Kragujevac dove arriviamo la sera.
Mercoledì 19 e giovedì 20 – Siamo a Kragujevac. Abbiamo l’intenzione di
cercare dati precisi sulla situazione sanitaria dei lavoratori, che
sono poi i papà e le mamme di tutti i ragazzi affidati. Non ne
troviamo. C’è “legittima reticenza” e chi promette documenti (analisi e
altro) ci delude. Pazienza! Abbiamo notizia, verbalmente, che i morti
ci sono e che le malattie sono in aumento. Spesso, nel giro di un mese,
si svelano patologie letali e piccoli manifesti mortuari tappezzano gli
alberi che conducono al cancello della Zastava. Riusciamo però, in ogni
caso, a trovare il testo trascritto e tradotto di un’intervista, andata
in onda sull’emittente serba B92 il 15 aprile scorso, fatta ad alcuni
operai che hanno partecipato al risanamento della Zastava. Dragan
Stojanovic, responsabile di una delle équipe che ha partecipato alla
bonifica della fabbrica, spiega che la rimozione delle macerie è stata
fatta senza alcuna precauzione e che in un mese ci sono stati sei
funerali. Paunovic, invece, è stato operato ed ha un polmone in meno.
Con i 4.500 dinari (circa 65 euro) del sussidio deve sopravvivere e
comprare le medicine. In tutto questo, asseriscono entrambi, l’aspetto
che dispiace di più è che l’azienda non riconosce l’esistenza di questi
problemi e si defila da qualsiasi sostegno agli operai che hanno avuto
patologie derivate dal lavoro all’interno della fabbrica. Dice Matic:
“se l’uranio si può bere come una limonata io mi scuserò”. Ma,
evidentemente, l’uranio delle bombe non è limonata anche perché, non a
caso, lo scorso novembre siamo stati testimoni diretti della presenza
di una delegazione dell’UNEP (United Nations Environmental Programme,
Programma Ambientale delle Nazioni Unite). La commissione dell’UNEP
cosa stava facendo a Kragujevac? Era in ferie? Probabilmente ha ragione
Knut Krusewitz, professore all’università di Berlino di Pianificazione
ambientale, che ha tentato, inascoltato, di spiegare al mondo quello
che era accaduto, contrapponendo la sua relazione a quella dell’UNEP.
Riportiamo soltanto le ultime righe del suo lavoro: “si tratta del
significativo danneggiamento delle risorse naturali ed economiche, in
un caso per lo sprigionamento di PCDDs (la diossina di Seveso) e di
PCDs e per l’altro per l’effetto di prodotti radiotossici e
chemiotossici derivati dalla disintegrazione delle munizioni all’uranio
impoverito. I cancerogeni saranno immagazzinati prevalentemente nei
prodotti agricoli e, al 95%, introdotti nella catena alimentare”. Siamo
propensi a dare ragione a lui e all’operaio Matic: l’uranio e la
diossina non sono limonata.
In due giorni a Kragujevac distribuiamo più di 250 borse di studio. I
ragazzi ci sono quasi tutti. La maggior parte dei non presenti sono
impegnati nei compiti in classe. Continuamo a fare foto. Alla fine del
viaggio saranno più di 1.200. I ragazzi assenti le consegneranno al
sindacato che le spedirà in Italia. Durante la distribuzione delle
quote vediamo le stesse persone. C’è “il ministro” (il suo soprannome
deriva dal fatto che ha preso a schiaffi il vecchio ministro del
Lavoro), il marito della signora Al Mamuri tornato dall’Iraq in Serbia
per eludere il destino beffardo, dopo un periodo di “riposo” con le tre
mogli irachene e per sfuggire alla situazione locale. La sera partiamo
per Nis.
Venerdì 21 – Tomasevic Bojana, alla Min Fitip, una delle affidate,
arriva accompagnata dal nonno. Sì, lo riconoscono, è proprio lui, l’ex
direttore generale della fabbrica. Un signore simpatico e dimesso che
sorride senza alcun compiacimento e che firma la ricevuta della borsa
di studio per sua nipote come uno dei tanti operai che sono stati suoi
dipendenti. Arrivano tutti, pian piano. Ci salutano. Vorremmo scattare
qualche foto all’interno della fabbrica. Ci spiegano che non è
possibile. Lo sapevamo, ma abbiamo tentato. Probabilmente anche la
Min-Fitip è nell’elenco delle aziende, grandi e piccole, in vendita.
Nel luglio 2001 è stata creata, appositamente, un’Agenzia per le
Privatizzazioni e, secondo i dati ufficiali che ha pubblicato, nel
2002, su 366 aziende in privatizzazione, 274 sono state vendute con un
introito di 350 milioni di dollari (fonte: Banca Nazionale Serba). A
quanto saranno vendute la Min-Fitip e l’Elktronska Industria? Ogni
volta che una fabbrica o un’azienda sono alienate aumentano il numero
dei disoccupati, la povertà, le malattie, la disperazione, la sfiducia
nelle istituzioni, la rabbia, e chi più ne ha più ne metta. Si è poveri
e lo si diventa sempre di più.
A Nis siamo ospiti di amici a Niska Banja dove, nel pomeriggio, andiamo
a distribuire le “skolska stipendia” nella scuola “Ivan Goran Kovacic”.
Nell’atrio ci attendono i ragazzi. Non appena entriamo
cominciano a cantare. Sono tornati da poco da una “gara canora” tra
tutte le scuole della Serbia e sono arrivati secondi. Sono bravi!
Subito dopo cominciamo a consegnare le borse di studio. I problemi
anche qui non mancano: cerchiamo di capire come affrontare tre
emergenze. Un bambino leucemico, un secondo con problemi di crescita e
la terza operata al cuore e con una deformazione del palato.
Tenteremo di trovare tra i tanti amici dell’associazione una
possibilità di cura per il piccolo leucemico, un farmaco, il
Genotropin, per il secondo, e faremo controllare in Serbia la terza dal
medico che l’ha in cura e che, coincidenza positiva, è il figliolo di
una nostra cara amica serba. Ci capita di chiedere a molti affidati se
hanno corrispondenza con i loro amici italiani, alcuni dicono di sì,
altri no, altri ancora ci dicono di avere scritto ma di non avere avuto
risposta. Spieghiamo a tutti che come per loro non c’è alcun obbligo a
corrispondere con i loro sostenitori, così non c’è per chi li aiuta.
Comunque, la “skolska stipendia” è già un segno d’amicizia importante e
tangibile.
Sabato 22, riposo. Con alcuni amici parliamo del Kosovo partendo da una
domanda: cosa ne pensate della possibilità, prefigurata da Kostunica,
di una cantonalizzazione (un’ amministrazione serba e albanese
all’interno della provincia sul modello della divisione interna della
Bosnia ed Erzegovina) partendo dal presupposto che un “paradiso
multietnico” non è realizzabile? Quasi tutti sono convinti che è
impossibile convivere con gli albanesi, la maggior parte vede nella
cantonalizzazione l’unica strada, pochi pensano che si debbano mandare
(dimenticando gli accordi internazionali che lo impediscono) esercito e
polizia serbi. Molti parlano bene dei militari italiani che hanno
difeso i serbi e i loro monasteri, dove possibile. Tutti dimentichiamo
due cose: 1) la Ue continua a sostenere un’unica soluzione: una regione
multietnica; 2) contro la cantonalizzazione si è schierato il leader
albanese Rugova il quale ha detto che è una cosa impossibile. Rugova,
d’altra parte, ormai si comporta da verso e conciliante padrone di
casa: ha promesso ai serbi che farà ricostruire le loro case e le loro
chiese distrutte dai suoi amici lo scorso marzo.
Domenica 23. La famiglia Zuza parte per l’America. Profughi dalla
Bosnia, per la precisione da Konjic, tra Mostar e Sarajevo, da più
dieci anni vivono, madre, padre e due figli, un maschio, Miroslav, 15
anni, e una femmina (affidata), Jovana, 16 anni, nell’hotel “Serbja” di
Niska Banja. Il Commissariato per i rifugiati delle Nazioni Unite gli
ha dato questa possibilità. Partono per Las Vegas. Andiamo a salutarli,
insieme ad altri amici. Manca un’ora alla partenza. Piangono e noi con
loro. Ci tratteniamo il tempo per augurargli ogni bene. Lo meritano.
Hanno il coraggio della disperazione indispensabile per un passo del
genere. Vorremmo poter comunicare meglio di quanto non sappiamo fare
quello che percepiamo in loro: paura dell’ignoto e speranza in un
futuro migliore. Alle 8 prendono i loro bagagli. Arriva l’autobus per
Belgrado. La disperazione dei genitori, vecchi, che sanno di non poter
più vedere i loro figli; il pianto degli amici, giovani, che presto
dimenticheranno. Non rischiamo il patetico! Andiamo avanti!
Sono i ragazzi e i genitori della piccola scuola di Donja Vrezina, dove
andiamo dopo la partenza della famiglia Zuza, a farci dimenticare la
tristezza di queste prime ore di domenica. Mentre distribuiamo le quote
arriva, a piedi, un vecchio giornalista che vuole sapere qualcosa sul
nostro lavoro. E’ stato a Roma per diversi anni ed ora è rientrato in
Serbia e per arrotondare una pensione inesistente si è messo a fare il
“free-lance”. Fa foto e si informa. Il Comitato dei genitori della
scuolina ha preparato un gran rinfresco. Ci dicono che i serbi sono
fatti così: sono disposti a non mangiare pur di accogliere bene degli
amici. I bambini sono tutti lì ed anche i genitori che si prendono in
giro. Il “soggetto” è soprattutto il marito di una bella signora che
torna ogni due mesi dalla Slovenia dove è andato è riuscito a trovare
lavoro.
Facili allusioni, ma meno facile ironia quella del destino di Predrag:
trovare lavoro proprio dove avvennero i primi scontri, nel giugno del
1991, tra la Difesa territoriale slovena e l’armata jugoslava. Ma sono
passati 13 anni… e quasi tutti bambini che oggi hanno preso la “skolska
stipendjia” , per fortuna, a quel tempo non erano neanche nati. E
questa è la grande speranza, dimenticare e ricominciare!
Lunedì 24 – Fa un freddo cane! All’orizzonte vediamo le montagne
bulgare. Entriamo nell’Elektronska Indusrtrija, ex colosso locale e
nazionale che produceva elettrodomestici. All’E.I. le cose vanno ancor
peggio che alla Min- Fitip. Dei circa 20.000 dipendenti sono 800 quelli
che lavorano e 2.400 quelli a disposizione che sperano di essere
chiamati. Gli altri sono disoccupati. Le retribuzioni vanno dai 4.000
ai 18.000 dinari , vale a dire da 60 a 250 euro (a prendere 18.000
dinari sono soltanto 15 tecnici superspecializzati). Andiamo dai
bambini e dai genitori riuniti, come il solito, nella vastissima mensa.
Stiamo al buio: non si accende la luce e non c’è acqua. Ci si è
abituati a risparmiare in qualsiasi circostanza e per tutto. Cominciamo
a chiamare e, come abbiamo fatto, in tutte le scuole e le fabbriche,
spieghiamo che scatteremo due foto da spedire ai loro amici italiani.
Sono lì “docili” e pazienti. Cominciamo la consegna delle “skolska
stipendia” e, com’è avvenuto in tutti i posti dove siamo stati, anche
qui sul volto di questa gente rassegnazione. Parlando con loro sentiamo
che sono scoraggiati. Hanno poche speranze nel futuro e credono poco
nella classe politica che li governa. Sono sempre gli stessi (non
possiamo dargli torto), anche i partiti sono sempre gli stessi (anche
questo è vero), se capita la disgrazia di ammalarsi ci si può anche
rassegnare a morire (verissimo, tanto che tutt’intorno è tappezzato di
piccoli manifesti con l’annuncio della morte di qualcuno, spesso
prematuramente), il lavoro non c’è e i giovani non hanno un futuro. C’è
anche chi ha un sussulto e si arrabbia mentre parla, ma la maggior
parte sono quieti.
Da un caro amico, riusciamo ad avere, per la prima volta durante il
nostro viaggio, un documento ufficiale sottoscritto dal direttore
dell’Ufficio di collocamento. Proviamo a capirci qualcosa. Scopriamo
che i disoccupati a Nis, al 5 aprile scorso, sono 46.036 dei quali
24.488 donne. I posti disponibili, all’Ufficio di collocamento, sono
invece 5.540 (2.363 a tempo indeterminato e 3.177 a termine). Proviamo
a capire di quale tipo di lavori si tratta, ma non ci riusciamo.
Facendo i conti a “maniera nostra” la percentuale ufficiale dei
disoccupati a Nis, anche se non possiamo essere precisi perché non
conosciamo il totale della forza lavoro locale, dovrebbe essere di
circa il 40% (la Banca Nazionale Serba parla, per il 2003, di 33,7%).
Con i sindacalisti cerchiamo di capire poi la situazione politica. E’
praticamente dall’inizio del viaggio che andiamo in giro con un pezzo
di carta, dove abbiamo disegnato un semicerchio (il Parlamento serbo) e
scritto, cercando di collocarli nella loro posizione “fisiologica” , i
nomi dei partiti. Da questo schema esatto e semplice, ne viene fuori
un’immagine sbilanciata completamente a destra del Parlamento, anche se
il Partito democratico (ex Djindjic) lo scorso ottobre è entrato
nell’Internazionale socialista. A sinistra sembrerebbe essere presente
soltanto il Partito socialista serbo (ex Milosevic), messo storicamente
fuori gioco dagli eventi. Tutti, dopo aver osservato lo schema,
concordano che è una situazione sbagliata. Alcuni affermano che ci sono
dei piccoli partiti a sinistra, altri che hanno tentato di riempire
questo vuoto con un nuovo partito il “Labour”, ma per ora l’esperienza
è fallita, altri ancora che un partito di sinistra c’è, quello di
Milosevic. Tutti concordano su una cosa: non c’è nessuna figura
politica, a sinistra, capace di raccogliere consensi e democratizzare
così un parlamento sbilanciato e litigioso.
Martedì 25 – Partenza per la Bosnia. Nel primo pomeriggio siamo a
Rogatica alla scuola “Sveti Sava”. Sono 1.200 i bambini che la
frequentano distribuiti su tre turni (si comincia alle 7,20 e si
finisce alle 18 circa). Quest’anno hanno cominciato la scuola anche
bambini di sei anni. Qui, contrariamente a quanto avviene in Serbia (la
legge non ha trovato attuazione in seguito al cambiamento del governo),
la riforma della scuola è stata applicata. Siamo un po’ confusi!
Entriamo con bambini e genitori in un’aula per distribuire le quote di
affido. Una mamma sale al primo piano della scuola arracampicandosi con
l’aiuto di una stampella. Non sta bene, ma vuole salutarci egualmente.
Comincia la distribuzione delle “borse di studio”. Un Papà è solo: il
piccolo Mihali è all’ospedale. Pochi mesi fa è morta la moglie e ora il
bambino, paraplegico, sta accusando il colpo. Storie di disperazione.
Vorremmo evitare di raccontarle, ma sono testimonianze importanti. Ci
sono però anche i momenti lieti: l’accoglienza di genitori e ragazzi,
le letterine per gli affidatari, i piccoli regali fatti con il cuore e
il sacrifico, le foto fatte insieme.
Chiacchieriamo un po’ con il vice preside della scuola. Sarà il tempo
che passa, ma ci rendiamo conto che c’è una maggiore disponibilità, in
tutti, a parlare di più, ad affrontare argomenti da anni elusi (con
l’eccezione di Lukavica, dove il direttore, continua a dirci, in
italiano, “Milan, grande squadra”). Durante il colloquio annotiamo
delle cose significative dette dal nostro amico: “passo la frontiera
con la Serbia decine di volte al mese e ogni volta devo mostrare il
passaporto. Io sono serbo, come i serbi di Serbia! E’ umilitante!”.
“Davanti c’è una persona, ma dietro ce n’è sempre un’altra”. “In ogni
casa della Republika Srpska, anche la più sperduta, l’ospite è sacro e
ci sarà sempre per lui un pasto!”. Stereotipi? No.
Risaliamo in macchina e via verso Pale, ex roccaforte di Radovan
Karadzic, capo dei serbi di Bosnia e ricercato numero uno per crimini
di guerra. Pale, ex capitale della Republika scalzata dalla più
moderata Banja Luka. La casa dove siamo ospitati è vicinissima alla
chiesa e alla canonica dove il primo aprile scorso, un commando della
Sfor (veniamo a sapere casualmente da “alcuni italiani” che si sarebbe
trattato di militari americani che “non vanno per il sottile”) ha fatto
saltare la porta con una carica di esplosivo ferendo gravemente il
parroco e il figlio. “L’esplosione ha frantumato i vetri delle
abitazioni circostanti (ad una sessantina di metri perché chiesa e
canonica sono al centro di una piazza-giardino) e non ci si poteva
affacciare perché i militari che circondavano gli edifici puntavano i
fucili”, ci dicono. Ma lasciamo stare queste cose!
Mercoledì 26 – La scuola “Pale” di Pale nel 2005 compirà cent’anni! Non
pochi! I bambini affidati sono una trentina e quasi tutti per arrivare
a scuola devono percorrere, ogni giorno, diversi chilometri a piedi. Ad
attenderci c’è anche Donato, un socio di San Donato Milanese, che è
venuto a trovare il suo “figlioccio”, Bosko, ed è ospite della famiglia
del bambino. E’ entusiasta di questa esperienza e ci parla di come è
stato accolto e della situazione difficile della famiglia. Per lui è
stata organizzata una gran festa alla quale hanno partecipato tutti i
vicini.
Ognuno ha portato qualcosa e, in poco tempo, è stato allestito un vero
e proprio banchetto! Cominciamo a distribuire le borse di studio e
facciamo le foto. Al direttore chiediamo, come abbiamo fatto in tutte
le altre città, schede di nuovi ragazzi da affidare. Finiamo presto.
Vorremmo andare a fare una camminata nei boschi. Ce lo sconsigliano.
Ancora troppi posti contaminati da mine e ordigni inesplosi. Notizia
ufficiale: in Bosnia sono 1.366 i centri abitati contaminati e, secondo
il Centro per lo sminamento, sono registrati oltre 10.000 campi minati.
Meglio evitare per non correre il rischio di aumentare il numero delle
vittime, 1.048, registrate dalla fine della guerra (1995).
Nel pomeriggio andiamo a Lukavica, enclave serba alla periferia di
Sarajevo. Il direttore della scuola “Sveti Sava”, milanista
“sfegatato”, è alle prese con il Consiglio d’istituto e ci accoglie il
suo vice. Entriamo nell’aula dove ci aspettano i bambini con i
genitori. Tra loro Blazic Sasa, “recordboy”: undici tra fratelli e
sorelle. A vedere il papà, un poco malridotto, zoppica e si sostiene
con una stampella, non ci sembra possibile che sia così “prolifico”. Ci
asteniamo da commenti, anche se alcuni suggerimenti gli servirebbero.
Distribuiamo le quote e riceviamo tre baci da ciascun affidato. Arriva
anche il direttore e, dopo i saluti, ci chiede subito se vogliamo
aiutarlo a costruire una palestra. Infatti, la scuola di Pale è un dono
della cooperazione giapponese e loro costruiscono le scuole senza
palestre. Gli diciamo che siamo una piccola associazione che non può
permettersi una spesa del genere. Di fronte al diniego ci svela che ha,
comunque, un probabile donatore. E’ una vecchia volpe mr. Milovan. Uomo
eccezionale, capace di fare il bene dei suoi alunni senza esporre se
stesso e chicchessia. Cauto al punto di rispondere “tutto OK” alla
banale domanda: “come vanno le cose a Lukavica?”. Ma basta dare
un’occhiata ai bambini e ai genitori per capire che le cose non sono
per niente OK a Lukavica che, come tutta la Republika Srpska, ha
problemi enormi: 43% di disoccupazione, miseria e fame, sporcizia e
disperazione. Giovedì ripartiamo per l’Italia!
(srpskohrvatski / english)
---
http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/bcr3/bcr3_200405_500_4_eng.txt
NOSTALGIA GROWS FOR TITO’S LOST WORLD
Social and economic instability prompt many Balkan citizens to yearn
for a time of order and prosperity.
By Marcus Tanner, Muhamet Hajrullahu in Pristina, Drago Hedl in Osijek,
Dino Bajramovic in Sarajevo, Mitko Jovanov in Skopje, Vladimir Sudar in
Belgrade and Tanja Matic in Subotica
Kaqusha Jashari, head of the Social Democratic Party of Kosovo, has
fond memories of the days when she carried the baton for Yugoslavia’s
late strongman, President Josip Broz “Tito”.
A prominent Albanian politician in the communist regime, she was
selected for the honour of carrying a baton containing a message from
the nation’s youth to the president in a relay from Slovenia in the
north to Kosovo and Macedonia in the south.
The culmination was the handing of the baton to the president in the
army stadium in Belgrade amid cheering crowds on his birthday on May
25. “The celebration of worship for Tito fitted in perfectly with the
education we had at the time,” Jashari recalled. “It was everyone’s
celebration, a festival of youth.”
Jashari’s views are less unusual than many think. While four of the six
Yugoslav republics are now independent states and Kosovo – still
technically [sic] part of Serbia– is desperate to become the fifth,
many inhabitants of the former federation, especially the elderly and
those from the poor south, recall Yugoslavia with nostalgia.
For them it was a time when food and jobs were plentiful, crime was
low, ethnic differences were downplayed and difficult political
decisions were left to the uniformed Marshal, whose stern features
stared down from thousands of portraits in offices, railways stations,
shops and homes.
“I was rich in Tito’s time, there were factories and handicraft
businesses – we had jobs, we had everything,” mused 84-year-old Mehdi
Shabani from Pristina. “The standard of life was far better,” added
Osman Krasniqi, 62, also a resident of the Kosovo capital. “With a low
salary you could build a house - you can’t do that now.”
Kosovo was the least Yugoslav area of all, for the simple reason that
it was the least Slav. “Albanians were less connected with Yugoslavia
than the other nations because they were the only non-Slavs. All we had
in common was the communist ideology, which was less personal than
sharing a language, culture and religion,” said Jashari.
Among the neighbouring Slavs of Macedonia, where locals not only got
jobs and food but their own republic, affection for Tito is far
greater. Whereas Tito’s once ubiquitous name has been torn down from
most streets and squares in ex-Yugoslavia, in the Macedonian capital of
Skopje, the largest and most elite school still sports the title “Josip
Broz Tito” and each May 25 it honours its patron saint with a folk
dance and a flower-laying ceremony.
For many Macedonians, poverty-stricken independence has proved a poor
exchange for a secure life in a large Slav federation. “There was no
division between rich and poor, everybody could afford to go to school
and have a home and a job,” maintained Makedonka Jancevska, 62, a
retired Macedonian language teacher.
“Patriotism was fostered on a broader scale; it meant respect of
everything related to the uniqueness of all the nations and
nationalities that were part of Yugoslavia.”
“The standard of living we had provided us with economic security and
many social benefits,” recalled Petar Mojsov, 46, a Macedonian
accountant. “Everyone could afford a flat and a car. I travelled to
Italy for shopping. I went to Greece for a vacation whenever I felt
like it.”
Tose Nackov, an electrical technician, remembers when whole towns in
Macedonia turned out to welcome the birthday baton that youths like
Kaqusha Jashari of Kosovo once proudly carried.
“We were impatient for the day when it would visit our town,” Nackov
said. “It was like a holiday and we would all gather in the square to
welcome it and see it off on its way to another town.”
Enthusiasm for Tito’s memory is so strong in Macedonia that last year a
new association was set up under Slobodan Ugrinovski to celebrate his
life. His 6,180 club members go on trips to (the few) institutions
still bearing Tito’s name and visit the main shrines, Tito’s final
resting place in Belgrade’s House of Flowers and his birthplace in
Kumrovec, Croatia.
As in Macedonia, the hapless inhabitants of war-torn, economically
ruined Bosnia and Herzegovina cannot help but contrast life under Tito
with what they have now. To Bosnians, Tito's name is widely associated
with “the good old times”.
Far from dimming, the cult of Tito there grows ever stronger. When the
authorities recently tried to rename the main street in Sarajevo after
Alija Izetbegovic, Bosnia’s first post-independence president, the
city’s inhabitants rose up, hanging a billboard across the boulevard
with Tito’s image on it and the slogan “This is the Street of Marshall
Tito”. Months after the initiative collapsed, this billboard remains.
“The young are turning to Tito because he personified prosperity,” said
Adnan Koric, a member of the Bosnian Association of Josip Broz Tito.
“They know that only during Tito’s time we constantly progressed for 45
years in every aspect of social and economic life.”
Koric believes Bosnians yearn for the time when they did not need
several currencies and visas to cross what was once a single territory.
“Now we cannot spend a tank of fuel driving in a straight line without
getting six visas first,” Koric joked.
In Sarajevo, Tito’s image has returned from the cellars and second-hand
shops to popular bars and restaurants. At Tito Bar, a popular haunt of
students, young people and professionals, walls are covered in Tito
insignia and photographs while waiters wear uniforms bearing Tito’s
still-familiar signature. “I come here to think about and live in the
past,“ said 26-year-old Amel. “Whatever some may say, our past was
brighter than our future.”
While Bosnia and Macedonia lost much and gained little from the fall of
Tito’s Yugoslavia, memories are less rosy in neighbouring Serbia and
Croatia. For more than a decade under the rule of Slobodan Milosevic,
Tito was demonised in Serbia as a Croatian enemy who had plotted the
Serbs’ downfall in Yugoslavia.
[NOTE: In reality, Tito was less demonized in Milosevic's era than he
is demonized now in Serbia; and he has been demonized much more in
Croatia than in Serbia since 1991 (think e.g. to the "Bitburg"
propaganda, and to the vehement anti-communism of HDZ). IWPR's comment
on "Milosevic's era" has much more to do with "political correctness"
in front of the western public opinion than with facts. CNJ]
But even in Serbia, the disappointments of the past decade, including
lost wars and collapsing living standards, have changed minds. Misa
Djurkovic, of the Belgrade Institute for European Studies, says a
growing nostalgia for Tito’s era is related to more than sorrow for
lost living standards.
"Yearning for [the old Yugoslavia] is also a yearning for order and
dignity,” he said. “Our ‘soft’ communist dictatorship was, after all, a
serious, well-established system in which there were none of the
robberies, chaos and anarchy that are now sadly typical.”
Djurkovic believes this nostalgia has even spread to some of the
younger generation, “Youngsters today see in Yugo-nostalgia an
instrument of protest against the rotten legacy of the Nineties, which
they have inherited.”
There is certainly no sign of the House of Flowers shutting its doors
to pilgrims, though it is a more neglected site than it was in the
Eighties, when foreign diplomats and visiting heads of state came to
the grave to pay their respects as a matter of course.
But if the crowned heads of state and presidents no longer troop past
Tito’s mausoleum, war veterans, communist party members and
non-governmental organisations, NGOs, still return on the late leader’s
birthday. Svetlana Ognjanovic, the House of Flowers spokeswoman, said
she expected up to 2,000 people for this year’s commemoration,
including a large party of Slovenian Hell’s Angels (the motorcyclists
have made an annual pilgrimage to the site since 2000).
The head of the Tito Centre NGO, retired army general Stevan Mirkovic,
also marks the day with dinners of partisan-style beans and a
re-enactment of the baton ceremony. And in Serbia’s far north, Blasko
Draskic, 73, has gone as far as you can in a campaign to restore Tito’s
memory, opening a theme park named “Yugoland” near the border town of
Subotica.
Mini-Yugoslavia has several of the geographical attributes of the
former Yugoslavia, including a hill named after its highest peak, Mt
Triglav, in Slovenia. Old flags with red stars flutter around the
entrance, while Tito’s portrait adorns every wall, showing Tito
hunting, playing the piano, reading, dancing and paying state visits.
Blasko even issues citizenship papers for Yugoland to visitors, and has
enrolled 2,500 so far.
Draskic says the abolition of the name “Yugoslavia” was a crime. “The
government [of Serbia and Montenegro] has killed off the name of the
best country, Yugoslavia, the last thing that reminded us of former
Yugoslavia, but without asking people for their consent,” he said. “I
had to save it for all Yugo-nostalgic people who can come here freely
to enjoy memories of Tito’s time.”
Although Draskic claims visitors are all of ages, the photographs of
celebrations held in Yugoland suggest Yugo-nostalgia is mainly a
middle-aged or elderly phenomenon.
Among the young people of all republics, interest is small or confined
to a ironic cult, a bit like those ex-east Germans who mock-celebrate
their communist past by driving Trabant cars and sporting badges with
communist slogans.
Aca Bogdanovic, 32, from Belgrade, said he only respected Tito “because
he was the greatest hedonist of the 20th century” - hardly the kind of
compliment real devotees appreciate. That kind of ironic appreciation
is equally evident in Tito’s Croatian homeland where only a handful
remain faithful to his political ideas, while a much larger and younger
group enjoy experimenting with Titoist motifs.
“It is mostly the young who buy these t-shirts - those who weren’t even
born when Tito died!” remarked a salesman in Osjek, in northeast
Croatia of his stack of t-shirts with Tito’s face on them.
Zagreb sociologist Drazen Lalic says that while only a few older people
can be described as truly Yugo-nostalgic, a growing interest in Tito
personally and in the country he once ruled stems from the fact that
Croatia is more at ease with itself now than it was ten years ago.
“After years of hearing that we belong solely to the Mediterranean or
Central European culture, we are now facing the fact that Croatia also
belongs to the Balkan cultural circle,” said Lalic.
“Yugo-nostalgia exists but people do not grieve for Yugoslavia as their
former state,” said Milanka Opacic, of the Social Democratic Party.
“They grieve for the quality of life they had. They think they were
much better off, safer, had a better standard of living and better
health protection than they now have.”
The plain fact is that Yugo-nostalgia no longer antagonises anyone
because no one seriously believes Yugoslavia will ever be recreated. In
Croatia, as the country heads towards the European Union,Yugoslavia is
seen as a thing of the past - an unsuccessful project that cannot and
will not be restored. As a result, Yugo-nostalgics in Croatia are now
viewed as romantics, rather than the enemies of the state they were
called during the era of Croatia’s nationalist, leader Franjo Tudjman.
Marcus Tanner is IWPR Balkan editor/trainer; Dino Bajramovic is culture
editor at the Sarajevo weekly, Slobodna Bosna; Vladimir Sudar and Mitko
Jovanov are journalists with the Belgrade weekly Reporter and the
Macedonian daily Dnevnik respectively; and Muhamet Hajrullahu, Drago
Hedl and Tanja Matic are regular IWPR contributors.
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Nostalgija za Titovim izgubljenim svetom
Drustvena i ekonomska nestabilnost navodi mnoge gradjane na Balkanu da
se s nostalgijom prisecaju Titovog doba.
Pisu: Markus Taner, Muhamet Hajrulahu iz Pristine, Drago Hedl iz
Osijeka, Dino Bajramovic iz Sarajeva, Mitko Jovanov iz Skoplja,
Vladimir Sudar iz Beograda i Tanja Matic iz Subotice (BCR Br 500,
28-maj-04)
Kacusa Jasari, predsednica Socijaldemokratske partije Kosova, ima lepe
uspomene na dane kada je nosila stafetu za pokojnog jugoslovenskog
predsednika Josipa Broza Tita.
Kao istaknuti albanski politicar u komunistickom rezimu, ona je imala
tu cast da nosi stafetu sa porukom omladine bivse Jugoslavije za
predsednika koja je prosla kroz citavu zemlju – od Slovenije na severu
do Kosova i Makedonije na jugu.
Vrhunac je bilo urucivanje stafete predsedniku na prepunom stadionu
Jugoslovenske narodne armije, JNA, u Beogradu na njegov rodjendan 25.
maja. "Proslava Titovog rodjendana se savrseno slagala sa obrazovanjem
koje smo sticali u to vreme", priseca se Jasarijeva. "Bila je to
proslava za sve – praznik mladosti."
Stavovi Jasarijeve o Danu mladosti nisu toliko neobicni kako bi to
mnogi pomislili. Mada su cetiri od sest bivsih jugoslovenskih republika
postale nezavisne drzave, a Kosovo – koje je jos uvek deo Srbije –
ocajnicki zeli da stekne nezavisnost, mnogi stanovnici bivse
federacije, pogotovo oni stariji i sa siromasnijeg juga, prisecaju se
Jugoslavije sa nostalgijom.
Za njih je to bilo vreme kada je hrane i posla bilo u izobilju, kada je
stopa kriminaliteta bila niska, kada etnicke razlike nisu bile bitne, a
teske politicke odluke su prepustane marsalu Titu, ciji je ozbiljan lik
posmatrao svet sa hiljada portreta okacenih u kancelarijama,
zeleznickim stanicama, prodavnicama i privatnim kucama.
"U Titovo vreme sam bio bogat. Bilo je fabrika i zanatskih radnji –
imali smo posla, imali smo sve", priseca se 84-godisnji Mehdi Sabani iz
Pristine. "Zivotni standard je bio znatno bolji", dodaje Osman
Krasnici, star 62 godine, takodje stanovnik glavnog grada Kosova. "Sa
tadasnjom malom platom ste mogli da izgradite sebi kucu – danas to ne
mozete da uradite."
Kosovo je bilo najmanje jugoslovensko iz prostog razloga sto je bilo
najmanje slovensko. "Albanci su bili manje vezani za Jugoslaviju u
odnosu na druge narode jer jedini nisu bili Sloveni. Sve sto nam je
bilo zajednicko je bila komunisticka ideologija, koja je bila manje
licna nego sto bi to bio zajednicki jezik, kultura i vera", kaze
Jasarijeva.
Medju susednim Slovenima u Makedoniji, gde su stanovnici dobili ne samo
radna mesta i hranu vec i svoju republiku, naklonost prema Titu je
znatno jaca. Mada je sveprisutno Titovo ime uklonjeno sa vecine ulice i
trgova u bivsoj Jugoslaviji, u makedonskoj prestonici, u Skoplju,
najveca i najelitnija skola jos uvek nosi naziv "Josip Broz Tito", a
svakoga 25. maja mu odaje postu folklornim plesom i buketima cveca.
Za mnoge Makedonce se nezavisnost opterecena siromastvom pokazala kao
losom zamenom za lagodniji zivot u velikoj slovenskoj federaciji. "Nije
bilo podele na bogate i siromasne, svako je mogao priustiti sebi da ide
u skolu, da ima sopstveni dom i posao", tvrdi Makedonka Jancevska,
stara 62 godine, uciteljica makedonskog jezika u penziji.
"Patriotizam se podsticao na jednoj siroj osnovi; to je tada znacilo
postovanje specificnosti svih nacionalnosti koje su cinile Jugoslaviju."
"Zivotni standard koji smo imali pruzao nam je ekonomsku sigurnost i
mnoge socijalne beneficije", priseca se Petar Mojsov, star 46 godina,
racunovodja iz Makedonije. "Svako je mogao da priusti sebi stan i kola.
Putovao sam u Italiju u kupovinu. Isao sam u Grcku kad god bih to
pozeleo."
Tose Nackov, elektricar, seca se kada bi citavo stanovnistvo gradova u
Makedoniji izaslo na ulice da pozdravi rodjendansku stafetu koje su
omladinci poput Kacuse Jasari sa Kosova nekada ponosno nosili.
"Nestrpljivo smo iscekivali dan kada bi stafeta trebalo da stigne u nas
grad", kaze Nackov. "To je bilo poput praznika, a svi mi bi se okupili
na trgu da je docekamo i ispratimo na put u susedni grad."
Uspomene na Tita su tako jake u Makedonije da je prosle godine Slobodan
Ugrinovski osnovao novo udruzenje za proslavljanje i cuvenje uspomene
na njegov zivot. Oko 6.180 clanova ovog udruzenja odlazi na putovanja
radi posete (nekolicini) institucija koje jos uvek nose Titovo ime, te
da bi obisli najvaznija mesta – Titov grob u beogradskoj Kuci cveca i
njegovo rodno selo Kumrovec u Hrvatskoj.
Kao i Makedonci, nesrecni stanovnici ratom opustosene, ekonomski
ruinirane Bosne i Hercegovine ne mogu odoleti, a da ne uporede zivot
pod Titom sa onim sto imaju sada. Titovo ime, po pravilu, Bosance
asocira na "dobra stara vremena".
Kult Josipa Broza Tita ne bledi. Stavise, sve je snazniji. Kada su
vlasti nedavno pokusale da preimenuju glavnu ulicu u Sarajevu u Ulicu
Alije Izetbegovica, prvog bosanskog predsednika u nezavisnoj drzavi,
Sarajlije su krenule u akciju, postavljajuci bilbord nasred bulevara sa
Titovom slikom i sloganom "Ovo je Ulica Marsala Tita". Vise meseci
nakon sto je inicijativa propala, ovaj bilbord je jos uvek na istom
mestu.
"Mladi se okrecu Titu jer on personifikuje prosperitet", kaze Adnan
Koric, clan bosanskog udruzenja posvecenog uspomeni na Josipa Broza
Tita. "Oni znaju da smo samo u Titovo vreme neprestano napredovali
citavih 45 godina u svakoj oblasti drustvenog i ekonomskog zivota."
Koric veruje da Bosanci zude za vremenom kada im nisu bile potrebne
razlicite valute i vize da bi se kretali podrucjem koje je nekada bilo
jedinstvena teritorija. "Sada ne mozete da potrosite pun rezervoar
benzina vozeci u jednom smeru, a da prethodno ne pribavite sest viza",
sali se Koric.
U Sarajevu se Titov lik vratio iz podruma i prodavnica polovne robe u
popularne barove i restorane. U baru koji se zove "Tito", popularnom
studentskom sastajalistu, zidovi su prekriveni predmetima i
fotografijama iz Titovog vremena dok konobari nose uniforme sa jos uvek
prepoznatljivim Titovim potpisom. "Dolazim ovde da razmisljam i zivim u
proslosti", kaze 26-godisnji Amel. "Ma sta neki govorili, nasa proslost
je bila svetlija od nase buducnosti."
Dok su Bosna i Makedonija izgubile puno, a stekle malo od raspada
Titove Jugoslavije, uspomene su nesto manje ruzicaste u susednoj Srbiji
i Hrvatskoj. Za vreme vladavine Slobodana Milosevica, duze od jedne
decenije, Tito je u Srbiji demonizovan kao hrvatski neprijatelj koji je
doprineo srpskom slomu u bivsoj Jugoslaviji.
Medjutim, cak i u Srbiji, razocarenja iz prosle decenije, ukljucujuci
izgubljene ratove i sunovrat zivotnog standarda, navelo je mnoge da
promene misljenje. Misa Djurkovic iz beogradskog Instituta za evropske
studije kaze da sve snaznija nostalgija za Titovim vremenom ne
proistice samo iz zala za dobrim zivotnim standardom.
"Ceznja za [starom Jugoslavijom] je takodje zudnja za redom i
dostojanstvom", kaze on. "Nasa 'mekana' komunisticka diktatura je,
ipak, predstavljala dobro utemeljen sistem u kome nije bilo pljacki,
haosa i anarhije koji su sada uobicajeni, sto je zalosno."
Djurkovic veruje da se ova vrsta nostalgije prosirila i na mladje
generacije. "Mladi danas u jugonostalgiji vide instrument protesta
protiv trulog zavestanja devedesetih koje su nasledili."
Svakako, ne postoje naznake da ce Kuca cveca zatvoriti svoja vrata
hodocasnicima, mada se ovom mestu posvecuje manje paznje i brige nego
sto je to bio slucaj u osamdesetim, kada su inostrane diplomate i
sefovi drzava redovno dolazili na Titov grob da odaju postu.
Iako krunisane glave i predsednici drzava vise ne prolaze pored Titovog
mauzoleja, ratni veterani, clanovi komunistickih partija i nevladinih
organizacija se iznova uvek vracaju na rodjendan pokojnog predsednika.
Svetlana Ognjanovic, portparol Kuce cveca, rekla je da ocekuje do 2.000
ljude za ovogodisnju komemoraciju, ukljucujuci veliku grupu slovenackih
"Andela pakla" (slovenacki motociklisti redovno posecuju Titov grob
svake godine od jos od 2000.).
Predsednik nevladine organizacije "Centar Tito", penzionisani armijski
general Stevan Mirkovic takodje obelezava Dan mladosti vecerom na kojoj
se sluzi vojnicki pasulj, a najstarijem clanu, samom Mirkovicu, ce
jedan omladinac i jedna omladinka uruciti stafetu mladosti. A na
krajnjem severu Srbije, Blasko Gabric, je otisao najdalje, koliko se
god moglo, u svojoj kampanji da obnovi uspomenu na Tita, otvarajuci
tematski park pod imenom "Jugolend" ("Yugoland") u blizini pogranicnog
grada, Subotice.
Mini-Jugoslavija ima nekoliko geografskih atributa bivse Jugoslavije,
ukljucujuci brdo nazvano po najvisem planinskom vrhu Triglavu u
Sloveniji. Stare zastave sa crvenom zvezdom se vijore pored ulaza, a
Titove slike se nalaze na svakom zidu prikazujuci ga kako lovi, svira
klavir, cita, plese i u poseti stranim drzavama. Blasko cak izdaje
dokumenta o drzavljanstvu za Jugolend, i do sada ih ima 2.500.
Blaskic kaze da je ukidanje imena "Jugoslavija" – zlocin. "Vlada
[Srbije i Crne Gore] je ubila ime najbolje zemlje – Jugoslavije, sto je
poslednja stvar koja nas je podsecala na bivsu Jugoslaviju, ne pitajuci
ljude za njihov pristanak", kaze on. "Ja sam morao da ga sacuvam za sve
jugonostalgicare koji mogu da dodju ovde i uzivaju u uspomenama na
Titovo vreme."
Mada Draskic tvrdi da su posetioci svih starosnih uzrasta, fotografije
sa proslava odrzanih u Jugolendu ukazuju da je jugonostalgija fenomen
koji se pretezno odnosi na sredovecne i starije ljude.
Medju mladim ljudima iz svih republika, interes za Tita je mali ili je
ogranicen na ironicni kult poput bivsih istocnih Nemaca koji s ironijom
proslavljaju svoju komunisticku proslost vozeci trabante i noseci
bedzeve sa komunistickim sloganima.
Aca Bogdanovic, star 32 godine, iz Beograda, je rekao da Tita postuje
"jer je bio najveci hedonista dvadesetog veka" – sto tesko da je vrsta
komplimenta koji bi pravi privrzenici cenili. Ova vrsta ironicne ocene
je jednako upadljiva u Titovoj maticnoj republici – Hrvatskoj, gde je
ostalo malo onih koji su verni njegovim politickim idejama, dok znatno
brojniji mladji ljudi uzivaju eksperimentisuci sa titoistickim motivima.
"Uglavnom mladi kupuju ove majice – oni koji nisu cak ni bili rodjeni
kada je Tito umro!" primecuje prodavac iz Osijeka, na severoistoku
Hrvatske, pokazujuci na gomilu majica sa Titovim likom.
Mada se uglavnom neki stariji ljudi mogu uistinu opisati kao pravi
jugonostalgicari, smatra zagrebacki sociolog Drazen Lalic, sve veci
interes za Tita licno i za zemlju kojom je nekada vladao proistice iz
cinjenice da Hrvatska sada ima opusteniji odnos prema svojoj drzavnosti
nego sto je to bio slucaj pre deset godina.
"Nakon sto smo godinama slusali da mi iskljucivo pripadamo
mediteranskoj i centralnoevropskoj kulturi, sada se suocavamo sa
cinjenicom da Hrvatska takodje pripada balkanskom kulturnom krugu",
kaze Lalic.
"Jugonostalgija postoji, ali ljudi ne zale za Jugoslavijom kao svojom
bivsom drzavom", kaze Milanka Opacic iz Socijaldemokratske partije.
"Oni zale za kvalitetom zivota koji su tada imali. Smatraju da im je
bilo znatno bolje, da su bili bezbedniji, da su imali bolji zivotni
standard i bolju zdravstvenu zastitu nego sto je to sada slucaj."
Prosta je cinjenica da jugonostalgija vise ne izaziva antagonizam jer
niko ozbiljno ne veruje da ce Jugoslavija ponovo biti uspostavljena. U
Hrvatskoj, dok zemlja grabi ka Evropskoj uniji, Jugoslavija se smatra
delom proslosti – neuspesnim projektom koji se ne moze i nece
restaurirati. Usled toga, jugonostalgicari se u Hrvatskoj sada pre
smatraju romanticarima nego neprijateljima drzave, kako su nekad
nazivani za vreme vladavine hrvatskog nacionalistickog lidera Franje
Tudjmana.
Markus Taner je urednik/instruktor obuke IWPR-a; Dino Bajramovic je
urednik za kulturu sarajevskog nedeljnika "Slobodna Bosna"; Vladimir
Sudar je novinar beogradskog nedeljnika "Reporter"; Mitko Jovanov je
novinar makedonskog dnevnog lista "Dnevnik"; a Muhamet Hajrulahu, Drago
Hedl i Tanja Matic su redovni saradnici IWPR-a.
---
(...) Balkan Crisis Report is supported by the Department for
International Development, the European Commission, the Swedish
International Development and Cooperation Agency, The Netherlands
Ministry for Foreign Affairs, and other funders. IWPR also acknowledges
general support from the Ford Foundation.
For further details on this project, other information services and
media programmes, visit IWPR's website: www.iwpr.net
ISSN: 1477-7932 Copyright © 2004 The Institute for War & Peace Reporting
---
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NOSTALGIA GROWS FOR TITO’S LOST WORLD
Social and economic instability prompt many Balkan citizens to yearn
for a time of order and prosperity.
By Marcus Tanner, Muhamet Hajrullahu in Pristina, Drago Hedl in Osijek,
Dino Bajramovic in Sarajevo, Mitko Jovanov in Skopje, Vladimir Sudar in
Belgrade and Tanja Matic in Subotica
Kaqusha Jashari, head of the Social Democratic Party of Kosovo, has
fond memories of the days when she carried the baton for Yugoslavia’s
late strongman, President Josip Broz “Tito”.
A prominent Albanian politician in the communist regime, she was
selected for the honour of carrying a baton containing a message from
the nation’s youth to the president in a relay from Slovenia in the
north to Kosovo and Macedonia in the south.
The culmination was the handing of the baton to the president in the
army stadium in Belgrade amid cheering crowds on his birthday on May
25. “The celebration of worship for Tito fitted in perfectly with the
education we had at the time,” Jashari recalled. “It was everyone’s
celebration, a festival of youth.”
Jashari’s views are less unusual than many think. While four of the six
Yugoslav republics are now independent states and Kosovo – still
technically [sic] part of Serbia– is desperate to become the fifth,
many inhabitants of the former federation, especially the elderly and
those from the poor south, recall Yugoslavia with nostalgia.
For them it was a time when food and jobs were plentiful, crime was
low, ethnic differences were downplayed and difficult political
decisions were left to the uniformed Marshal, whose stern features
stared down from thousands of portraits in offices, railways stations,
shops and homes.
“I was rich in Tito’s time, there were factories and handicraft
businesses – we had jobs, we had everything,” mused 84-year-old Mehdi
Shabani from Pristina. “The standard of life was far better,” added
Osman Krasniqi, 62, also a resident of the Kosovo capital. “With a low
salary you could build a house - you can’t do that now.”
Kosovo was the least Yugoslav area of all, for the simple reason that
it was the least Slav. “Albanians were less connected with Yugoslavia
than the other nations because they were the only non-Slavs. All we had
in common was the communist ideology, which was less personal than
sharing a language, culture and religion,” said Jashari.
Among the neighbouring Slavs of Macedonia, where locals not only got
jobs and food but their own republic, affection for Tito is far
greater. Whereas Tito’s once ubiquitous name has been torn down from
most streets and squares in ex-Yugoslavia, in the Macedonian capital of
Skopje, the largest and most elite school still sports the title “Josip
Broz Tito” and each May 25 it honours its patron saint with a folk
dance and a flower-laying ceremony.
For many Macedonians, poverty-stricken independence has proved a poor
exchange for a secure life in a large Slav federation. “There was no
division between rich and poor, everybody could afford to go to school
and have a home and a job,” maintained Makedonka Jancevska, 62, a
retired Macedonian language teacher.
“Patriotism was fostered on a broader scale; it meant respect of
everything related to the uniqueness of all the nations and
nationalities that were part of Yugoslavia.”
“The standard of living we had provided us with economic security and
many social benefits,” recalled Petar Mojsov, 46, a Macedonian
accountant. “Everyone could afford a flat and a car. I travelled to
Italy for shopping. I went to Greece for a vacation whenever I felt
like it.”
Tose Nackov, an electrical technician, remembers when whole towns in
Macedonia turned out to welcome the birthday baton that youths like
Kaqusha Jashari of Kosovo once proudly carried.
“We were impatient for the day when it would visit our town,” Nackov
said. “It was like a holiday and we would all gather in the square to
welcome it and see it off on its way to another town.”
Enthusiasm for Tito’s memory is so strong in Macedonia that last year a
new association was set up under Slobodan Ugrinovski to celebrate his
life. His 6,180 club members go on trips to (the few) institutions
still bearing Tito’s name and visit the main shrines, Tito’s final
resting place in Belgrade’s House of Flowers and his birthplace in
Kumrovec, Croatia.
As in Macedonia, the hapless inhabitants of war-torn, economically
ruined Bosnia and Herzegovina cannot help but contrast life under Tito
with what they have now. To Bosnians, Tito's name is widely associated
with “the good old times”.
Far from dimming, the cult of Tito there grows ever stronger. When the
authorities recently tried to rename the main street in Sarajevo after
Alija Izetbegovic, Bosnia’s first post-independence president, the
city’s inhabitants rose up, hanging a billboard across the boulevard
with Tito’s image on it and the slogan “This is the Street of Marshall
Tito”. Months after the initiative collapsed, this billboard remains.
“The young are turning to Tito because he personified prosperity,” said
Adnan Koric, a member of the Bosnian Association of Josip Broz Tito.
“They know that only during Tito’s time we constantly progressed for 45
years in every aspect of social and economic life.”
Koric believes Bosnians yearn for the time when they did not need
several currencies and visas to cross what was once a single territory.
“Now we cannot spend a tank of fuel driving in a straight line without
getting six visas first,” Koric joked.
In Sarajevo, Tito’s image has returned from the cellars and second-hand
shops to popular bars and restaurants. At Tito Bar, a popular haunt of
students, young people and professionals, walls are covered in Tito
insignia and photographs while waiters wear uniforms bearing Tito’s
still-familiar signature. “I come here to think about and live in the
past,“ said 26-year-old Amel. “Whatever some may say, our past was
brighter than our future.”
While Bosnia and Macedonia lost much and gained little from the fall of
Tito’s Yugoslavia, memories are less rosy in neighbouring Serbia and
Croatia. For more than a decade under the rule of Slobodan Milosevic,
Tito was demonised in Serbia as a Croatian enemy who had plotted the
Serbs’ downfall in Yugoslavia.
[NOTE: In reality, Tito was less demonized in Milosevic's era than he
is demonized now in Serbia; and he has been demonized much more in
Croatia than in Serbia since 1991 (think e.g. to the "Bitburg"
propaganda, and to the vehement anti-communism of HDZ). IWPR's comment
on "Milosevic's era" has much more to do with "political correctness"
in front of the western public opinion than with facts. CNJ]
But even in Serbia, the disappointments of the past decade, including
lost wars and collapsing living standards, have changed minds. Misa
Djurkovic, of the Belgrade Institute for European Studies, says a
growing nostalgia for Tito’s era is related to more than sorrow for
lost living standards.
"Yearning for [the old Yugoslavia] is also a yearning for order and
dignity,” he said. “Our ‘soft’ communist dictatorship was, after all, a
serious, well-established system in which there were none of the
robberies, chaos and anarchy that are now sadly typical.”
Djurkovic believes this nostalgia has even spread to some of the
younger generation, “Youngsters today see in Yugo-nostalgia an
instrument of protest against the rotten legacy of the Nineties, which
they have inherited.”
There is certainly no sign of the House of Flowers shutting its doors
to pilgrims, though it is a more neglected site than it was in the
Eighties, when foreign diplomats and visiting heads of state came to
the grave to pay their respects as a matter of course.
But if the crowned heads of state and presidents no longer troop past
Tito’s mausoleum, war veterans, communist party members and
non-governmental organisations, NGOs, still return on the late leader’s
birthday. Svetlana Ognjanovic, the House of Flowers spokeswoman, said
she expected up to 2,000 people for this year’s commemoration,
including a large party of Slovenian Hell’s Angels (the motorcyclists
have made an annual pilgrimage to the site since 2000).
The head of the Tito Centre NGO, retired army general Stevan Mirkovic,
also marks the day with dinners of partisan-style beans and a
re-enactment of the baton ceremony. And in Serbia’s far north, Blasko
Draskic, 73, has gone as far as you can in a campaign to restore Tito’s
memory, opening a theme park named “Yugoland” near the border town of
Subotica.
Mini-Yugoslavia has several of the geographical attributes of the
former Yugoslavia, including a hill named after its highest peak, Mt
Triglav, in Slovenia. Old flags with red stars flutter around the
entrance, while Tito’s portrait adorns every wall, showing Tito
hunting, playing the piano, reading, dancing and paying state visits.
Blasko even issues citizenship papers for Yugoland to visitors, and has
enrolled 2,500 so far.
Draskic says the abolition of the name “Yugoslavia” was a crime. “The
government [of Serbia and Montenegro] has killed off the name of the
best country, Yugoslavia, the last thing that reminded us of former
Yugoslavia, but without asking people for their consent,” he said. “I
had to save it for all Yugo-nostalgic people who can come here freely
to enjoy memories of Tito’s time.”
Although Draskic claims visitors are all of ages, the photographs of
celebrations held in Yugoland suggest Yugo-nostalgia is mainly a
middle-aged or elderly phenomenon.
Among the young people of all republics, interest is small or confined
to a ironic cult, a bit like those ex-east Germans who mock-celebrate
their communist past by driving Trabant cars and sporting badges with
communist slogans.
Aca Bogdanovic, 32, from Belgrade, said he only respected Tito “because
he was the greatest hedonist of the 20th century” - hardly the kind of
compliment real devotees appreciate. That kind of ironic appreciation
is equally evident in Tito’s Croatian homeland where only a handful
remain faithful to his political ideas, while a much larger and younger
group enjoy experimenting with Titoist motifs.
“It is mostly the young who buy these t-shirts - those who weren’t even
born when Tito died!” remarked a salesman in Osjek, in northeast
Croatia of his stack of t-shirts with Tito’s face on them.
Zagreb sociologist Drazen Lalic says that while only a few older people
can be described as truly Yugo-nostalgic, a growing interest in Tito
personally and in the country he once ruled stems from the fact that
Croatia is more at ease with itself now than it was ten years ago.
“After years of hearing that we belong solely to the Mediterranean or
Central European culture, we are now facing the fact that Croatia also
belongs to the Balkan cultural circle,” said Lalic.
“Yugo-nostalgia exists but people do not grieve for Yugoslavia as their
former state,” said Milanka Opacic, of the Social Democratic Party.
“They grieve for the quality of life they had. They think they were
much better off, safer, had a better standard of living and better
health protection than they now have.”
The plain fact is that Yugo-nostalgia no longer antagonises anyone
because no one seriously believes Yugoslavia will ever be recreated. In
Croatia, as the country heads towards the European Union,Yugoslavia is
seen as a thing of the past - an unsuccessful project that cannot and
will not be restored. As a result, Yugo-nostalgics in Croatia are now
viewed as romantics, rather than the enemies of the state they were
called during the era of Croatia’s nationalist, leader Franjo Tudjman.
Marcus Tanner is IWPR Balkan editor/trainer; Dino Bajramovic is culture
editor at the Sarajevo weekly, Slobodna Bosna; Vladimir Sudar and Mitko
Jovanov are journalists with the Belgrade weekly Reporter and the
Macedonian daily Dnevnik respectively; and Muhamet Hajrullahu, Drago
Hedl and Tanja Matic are regular IWPR contributors.
---
http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/bcr3/bcr3_200405_500_4_ser.txt
Nostalgija za Titovim izgubljenim svetom
Drustvena i ekonomska nestabilnost navodi mnoge gradjane na Balkanu da
se s nostalgijom prisecaju Titovog doba.
Pisu: Markus Taner, Muhamet Hajrulahu iz Pristine, Drago Hedl iz
Osijeka, Dino Bajramovic iz Sarajeva, Mitko Jovanov iz Skoplja,
Vladimir Sudar iz Beograda i Tanja Matic iz Subotice (BCR Br 500,
28-maj-04)
Kacusa Jasari, predsednica Socijaldemokratske partije Kosova, ima lepe
uspomene na dane kada je nosila stafetu za pokojnog jugoslovenskog
predsednika Josipa Broza Tita.
Kao istaknuti albanski politicar u komunistickom rezimu, ona je imala
tu cast da nosi stafetu sa porukom omladine bivse Jugoslavije za
predsednika koja je prosla kroz citavu zemlju – od Slovenije na severu
do Kosova i Makedonije na jugu.
Vrhunac je bilo urucivanje stafete predsedniku na prepunom stadionu
Jugoslovenske narodne armije, JNA, u Beogradu na njegov rodjendan 25.
maja. "Proslava Titovog rodjendana se savrseno slagala sa obrazovanjem
koje smo sticali u to vreme", priseca se Jasarijeva. "Bila je to
proslava za sve – praznik mladosti."
Stavovi Jasarijeve o Danu mladosti nisu toliko neobicni kako bi to
mnogi pomislili. Mada su cetiri od sest bivsih jugoslovenskih republika
postale nezavisne drzave, a Kosovo – koje je jos uvek deo Srbije –
ocajnicki zeli da stekne nezavisnost, mnogi stanovnici bivse
federacije, pogotovo oni stariji i sa siromasnijeg juga, prisecaju se
Jugoslavije sa nostalgijom.
Za njih je to bilo vreme kada je hrane i posla bilo u izobilju, kada je
stopa kriminaliteta bila niska, kada etnicke razlike nisu bile bitne, a
teske politicke odluke su prepustane marsalu Titu, ciji je ozbiljan lik
posmatrao svet sa hiljada portreta okacenih u kancelarijama,
zeleznickim stanicama, prodavnicama i privatnim kucama.
"U Titovo vreme sam bio bogat. Bilo je fabrika i zanatskih radnji –
imali smo posla, imali smo sve", priseca se 84-godisnji Mehdi Sabani iz
Pristine. "Zivotni standard je bio znatno bolji", dodaje Osman
Krasnici, star 62 godine, takodje stanovnik glavnog grada Kosova. "Sa
tadasnjom malom platom ste mogli da izgradite sebi kucu – danas to ne
mozete da uradite."
Kosovo je bilo najmanje jugoslovensko iz prostog razloga sto je bilo
najmanje slovensko. "Albanci su bili manje vezani za Jugoslaviju u
odnosu na druge narode jer jedini nisu bili Sloveni. Sve sto nam je
bilo zajednicko je bila komunisticka ideologija, koja je bila manje
licna nego sto bi to bio zajednicki jezik, kultura i vera", kaze
Jasarijeva.
Medju susednim Slovenima u Makedoniji, gde su stanovnici dobili ne samo
radna mesta i hranu vec i svoju republiku, naklonost prema Titu je
znatno jaca. Mada je sveprisutno Titovo ime uklonjeno sa vecine ulice i
trgova u bivsoj Jugoslaviji, u makedonskoj prestonici, u Skoplju,
najveca i najelitnija skola jos uvek nosi naziv "Josip Broz Tito", a
svakoga 25. maja mu odaje postu folklornim plesom i buketima cveca.
Za mnoge Makedonce se nezavisnost opterecena siromastvom pokazala kao
losom zamenom za lagodniji zivot u velikoj slovenskoj federaciji. "Nije
bilo podele na bogate i siromasne, svako je mogao priustiti sebi da ide
u skolu, da ima sopstveni dom i posao", tvrdi Makedonka Jancevska,
stara 62 godine, uciteljica makedonskog jezika u penziji.
"Patriotizam se podsticao na jednoj siroj osnovi; to je tada znacilo
postovanje specificnosti svih nacionalnosti koje su cinile Jugoslaviju."
"Zivotni standard koji smo imali pruzao nam je ekonomsku sigurnost i
mnoge socijalne beneficije", priseca se Petar Mojsov, star 46 godina,
racunovodja iz Makedonije. "Svako je mogao da priusti sebi stan i kola.
Putovao sam u Italiju u kupovinu. Isao sam u Grcku kad god bih to
pozeleo."
Tose Nackov, elektricar, seca se kada bi citavo stanovnistvo gradova u
Makedoniji izaslo na ulice da pozdravi rodjendansku stafetu koje su
omladinci poput Kacuse Jasari sa Kosova nekada ponosno nosili.
"Nestrpljivo smo iscekivali dan kada bi stafeta trebalo da stigne u nas
grad", kaze Nackov. "To je bilo poput praznika, a svi mi bi se okupili
na trgu da je docekamo i ispratimo na put u susedni grad."
Uspomene na Tita su tako jake u Makedonije da je prosle godine Slobodan
Ugrinovski osnovao novo udruzenje za proslavljanje i cuvenje uspomene
na njegov zivot. Oko 6.180 clanova ovog udruzenja odlazi na putovanja
radi posete (nekolicini) institucija koje jos uvek nose Titovo ime, te
da bi obisli najvaznija mesta – Titov grob u beogradskoj Kuci cveca i
njegovo rodno selo Kumrovec u Hrvatskoj.
Kao i Makedonci, nesrecni stanovnici ratom opustosene, ekonomski
ruinirane Bosne i Hercegovine ne mogu odoleti, a da ne uporede zivot
pod Titom sa onim sto imaju sada. Titovo ime, po pravilu, Bosance
asocira na "dobra stara vremena".
Kult Josipa Broza Tita ne bledi. Stavise, sve je snazniji. Kada su
vlasti nedavno pokusale da preimenuju glavnu ulicu u Sarajevu u Ulicu
Alije Izetbegovica, prvog bosanskog predsednika u nezavisnoj drzavi,
Sarajlije su krenule u akciju, postavljajuci bilbord nasred bulevara sa
Titovom slikom i sloganom "Ovo je Ulica Marsala Tita". Vise meseci
nakon sto je inicijativa propala, ovaj bilbord je jos uvek na istom
mestu.
"Mladi se okrecu Titu jer on personifikuje prosperitet", kaze Adnan
Koric, clan bosanskog udruzenja posvecenog uspomeni na Josipa Broza
Tita. "Oni znaju da smo samo u Titovo vreme neprestano napredovali
citavih 45 godina u svakoj oblasti drustvenog i ekonomskog zivota."
Koric veruje da Bosanci zude za vremenom kada im nisu bile potrebne
razlicite valute i vize da bi se kretali podrucjem koje je nekada bilo
jedinstvena teritorija. "Sada ne mozete da potrosite pun rezervoar
benzina vozeci u jednom smeru, a da prethodno ne pribavite sest viza",
sali se Koric.
U Sarajevu se Titov lik vratio iz podruma i prodavnica polovne robe u
popularne barove i restorane. U baru koji se zove "Tito", popularnom
studentskom sastajalistu, zidovi su prekriveni predmetima i
fotografijama iz Titovog vremena dok konobari nose uniforme sa jos uvek
prepoznatljivim Titovim potpisom. "Dolazim ovde da razmisljam i zivim u
proslosti", kaze 26-godisnji Amel. "Ma sta neki govorili, nasa proslost
je bila svetlija od nase buducnosti."
Dok su Bosna i Makedonija izgubile puno, a stekle malo od raspada
Titove Jugoslavije, uspomene su nesto manje ruzicaste u susednoj Srbiji
i Hrvatskoj. Za vreme vladavine Slobodana Milosevica, duze od jedne
decenije, Tito je u Srbiji demonizovan kao hrvatski neprijatelj koji je
doprineo srpskom slomu u bivsoj Jugoslaviji.
Medjutim, cak i u Srbiji, razocarenja iz prosle decenije, ukljucujuci
izgubljene ratove i sunovrat zivotnog standarda, navelo je mnoge da
promene misljenje. Misa Djurkovic iz beogradskog Instituta za evropske
studije kaze da sve snaznija nostalgija za Titovim vremenom ne
proistice samo iz zala za dobrim zivotnim standardom.
"Ceznja za [starom Jugoslavijom] je takodje zudnja za redom i
dostojanstvom", kaze on. "Nasa 'mekana' komunisticka diktatura je,
ipak, predstavljala dobro utemeljen sistem u kome nije bilo pljacki,
haosa i anarhije koji su sada uobicajeni, sto je zalosno."
Djurkovic veruje da se ova vrsta nostalgije prosirila i na mladje
generacije. "Mladi danas u jugonostalgiji vide instrument protesta
protiv trulog zavestanja devedesetih koje su nasledili."
Svakako, ne postoje naznake da ce Kuca cveca zatvoriti svoja vrata
hodocasnicima, mada se ovom mestu posvecuje manje paznje i brige nego
sto je to bio slucaj u osamdesetim, kada su inostrane diplomate i
sefovi drzava redovno dolazili na Titov grob da odaju postu.
Iako krunisane glave i predsednici drzava vise ne prolaze pored Titovog
mauzoleja, ratni veterani, clanovi komunistickih partija i nevladinih
organizacija se iznova uvek vracaju na rodjendan pokojnog predsednika.
Svetlana Ognjanovic, portparol Kuce cveca, rekla je da ocekuje do 2.000
ljude za ovogodisnju komemoraciju, ukljucujuci veliku grupu slovenackih
"Andela pakla" (slovenacki motociklisti redovno posecuju Titov grob
svake godine od jos od 2000.).
Predsednik nevladine organizacije "Centar Tito", penzionisani armijski
general Stevan Mirkovic takodje obelezava Dan mladosti vecerom na kojoj
se sluzi vojnicki pasulj, a najstarijem clanu, samom Mirkovicu, ce
jedan omladinac i jedna omladinka uruciti stafetu mladosti. A na
krajnjem severu Srbije, Blasko Gabric, je otisao najdalje, koliko se
god moglo, u svojoj kampanji da obnovi uspomenu na Tita, otvarajuci
tematski park pod imenom "Jugolend" ("Yugoland") u blizini pogranicnog
grada, Subotice.
Mini-Jugoslavija ima nekoliko geografskih atributa bivse Jugoslavije,
ukljucujuci brdo nazvano po najvisem planinskom vrhu Triglavu u
Sloveniji. Stare zastave sa crvenom zvezdom se vijore pored ulaza, a
Titove slike se nalaze na svakom zidu prikazujuci ga kako lovi, svira
klavir, cita, plese i u poseti stranim drzavama. Blasko cak izdaje
dokumenta o drzavljanstvu za Jugolend, i do sada ih ima 2.500.
Blaskic kaze da je ukidanje imena "Jugoslavija" – zlocin. "Vlada
[Srbije i Crne Gore] je ubila ime najbolje zemlje – Jugoslavije, sto je
poslednja stvar koja nas je podsecala na bivsu Jugoslaviju, ne pitajuci
ljude za njihov pristanak", kaze on. "Ja sam morao da ga sacuvam za sve
jugonostalgicare koji mogu da dodju ovde i uzivaju u uspomenama na
Titovo vreme."
Mada Draskic tvrdi da su posetioci svih starosnih uzrasta, fotografije
sa proslava odrzanih u Jugolendu ukazuju da je jugonostalgija fenomen
koji se pretezno odnosi na sredovecne i starije ljude.
Medju mladim ljudima iz svih republika, interes za Tita je mali ili je
ogranicen na ironicni kult poput bivsih istocnih Nemaca koji s ironijom
proslavljaju svoju komunisticku proslost vozeci trabante i noseci
bedzeve sa komunistickim sloganima.
Aca Bogdanovic, star 32 godine, iz Beograda, je rekao da Tita postuje
"jer je bio najveci hedonista dvadesetog veka" – sto tesko da je vrsta
komplimenta koji bi pravi privrzenici cenili. Ova vrsta ironicne ocene
je jednako upadljiva u Titovoj maticnoj republici – Hrvatskoj, gde je
ostalo malo onih koji su verni njegovim politickim idejama, dok znatno
brojniji mladji ljudi uzivaju eksperimentisuci sa titoistickim motivima.
"Uglavnom mladi kupuju ove majice – oni koji nisu cak ni bili rodjeni
kada je Tito umro!" primecuje prodavac iz Osijeka, na severoistoku
Hrvatske, pokazujuci na gomilu majica sa Titovim likom.
Mada se uglavnom neki stariji ljudi mogu uistinu opisati kao pravi
jugonostalgicari, smatra zagrebacki sociolog Drazen Lalic, sve veci
interes za Tita licno i za zemlju kojom je nekada vladao proistice iz
cinjenice da Hrvatska sada ima opusteniji odnos prema svojoj drzavnosti
nego sto je to bio slucaj pre deset godina.
"Nakon sto smo godinama slusali da mi iskljucivo pripadamo
mediteranskoj i centralnoevropskoj kulturi, sada se suocavamo sa
cinjenicom da Hrvatska takodje pripada balkanskom kulturnom krugu",
kaze Lalic.
"Jugonostalgija postoji, ali ljudi ne zale za Jugoslavijom kao svojom
bivsom drzavom", kaze Milanka Opacic iz Socijaldemokratske partije.
"Oni zale za kvalitetom zivota koji su tada imali. Smatraju da im je
bilo znatno bolje, da su bili bezbedniji, da su imali bolji zivotni
standard i bolju zdravstvenu zastitu nego sto je to sada slucaj."
Prosta je cinjenica da jugonostalgija vise ne izaziva antagonizam jer
niko ozbiljno ne veruje da ce Jugoslavija ponovo biti uspostavljena. U
Hrvatskoj, dok zemlja grabi ka Evropskoj uniji, Jugoslavija se smatra
delom proslosti – neuspesnim projektom koji se ne moze i nece
restaurirati. Usled toga, jugonostalgicari se u Hrvatskoj sada pre
smatraju romanticarima nego neprijateljima drzave, kako su nekad
nazivani za vreme vladavine hrvatskog nacionalistickog lidera Franje
Tudjmana.
Markus Taner je urednik/instruktor obuke IWPR-a; Dino Bajramovic je
urednik za kulturu sarajevskog nedeljnika "Slobodna Bosna"; Vladimir
Sudar je novinar beogradskog nedeljnika "Reporter"; Mitko Jovanov je
novinar makedonskog dnevnog lista "Dnevnik"; a Muhamet Hajrulahu, Drago
Hedl i Tanja Matic su redovni saradnici IWPR-a.
---
(...) Balkan Crisis Report is supported by the Department for
International Development, the European Commission, the Swedish
International Development and Cooperation Agency, The Netherlands
Ministry for Foreign Affairs, and other funders. IWPR also acknowledges
general support from the Ford Foundation.
For further details on this project, other information services and
media programmes, visit IWPR's website: www.iwpr.net
ISSN: 1477-7932 Copyright © 2004 The Institute for War & Peace Reporting
Inizio del messaggio inoltrato:
> Da: "stratz\@libero\.it" <stratz @ libero.it>
> Data: Ven 4 Giu 2004 21:28:49 Europe/Rome
> A: "jugocoord" <jugocoord @ tiscali.it>
>
> Cari amici stiamo raccogliendo materiale pe rla biblioteca di Banja
> Luka(vedi allegato)pensavamo di portare un carico di libri in lingua
> italiana e altro ciao ciao
PROGETTO: BIBLIOTECA DI LINGUA E CULTURA ITALIANA
LOCAZIONE:
ASSOCIAZIONE “MARCO POLO” (ONG),
ul. Zmaj Jovina 13, Banja Luka Bosnia ed Erzegovina. tel/fax
+387-51-217057,
marcopolobl @ yahoo.com.
http://home.blic.net/marcopolobl/
PRESENTAZIONE
L’associazione “Marco Polo” opera dal 2001 per la divulgazione della
lingua e cultura italiana in Bosnia e di quella bosniaca in Italia. Le
principali attività dell’associazione sono:
organizzazione di eventi culturali: concerti, mostre fotografiche, di
pittura, di scultura, incontri letterari e di carattere sociale
(obiezione di coscienza e diritti umani;
organizzazione di corsi serali di italiano. Dal 2001 più di 3000
persone hanno frequentato i corsi di lingua italiana, di queste più di
70 hanno ottenuto borse di studio per perfezionare la lingua in Italia;
casa editrice. La Marco Polo ha pubblicato tre libri con testo a
fronte: A. Baricco “900”, Primo Levi “I sommersi e i salvati” e F.
Marinetti “11 baci a Rosa di Belgrado”;
assistenza e linguistica e logistica a persone italiane in transito o
per lavoro a BAnja Luka e dintorni e a bosniaci diretti in Italia.
SITUAZIONE ATTUALE
In presenza di un notevole interesse verso la lingua italiana,
quest’anno solo al primo livello del corso serale si sono iscritte più
di 500 corsisti, la “Marco Polo” deve fare fronte ad un sempre
crescente richiesta di libri e riviste in lingua italiana. Dal 2001
l’associazione, tramite donazioni, ha raccolto circa 2000 tra libri e
riviste in italiano ed ha inaugurato la prima biblioteca di tal genere
in tutta la Bosnia ed Erzegovina. Tale biblioteca si trova presso il
Ginnasio della città e le spese dell’affitto sono coperte dal Comune di
Banja Luka, che ha riconosciuto l’importanza e l’assoluta necessità
della presenza di questa istituzione culturale per tutta la
cittadinanza e non solo.
Si fa presente che presso l’Università di Banja Luka a settembre del
corrente anno, è stato inaugurato il primo corso di laurea in lingua e
letteratura italiana in tutta la Bosnia ed Erzegovina. Un
riconoscimento anche da parte del mondo accademico del sempre più
cospicuo bisogno di italianità da parte della città e della sua regione.
La biblioteca ha già iniziato a lavorare e a fornire i propri servizi.
L’orario di lavoro è dalle 10.00 alle 18.00, il sistema di
catalogazione dei testi è informatizzato. Abbiamo impiegato un membro
della “Marco Polo”, il quale, provvisto di una borsa di studio
dell’associazione, ha seguito un corso in gestione bibliotecaria presso
l’Università. Al momento attuale più di 100 persone sono fornite della
tessera di accesso ai servizi della biblioteca. Forniamo all’interno
della biblioteca un servizio fotocopie e i libri possono essere presi
in prestito per un massimo di 15 giorni, comunque il prestito è
ripetibile. La tessera ha un costo simbolico: 5 marchi l’anno.
OBIETTIVO
In base ad una nostra ricerca il numero di testi presenti in biblioteca
(2045) è assolutamente inferiore al bisogno e alle aspettative dei
frequentatori. Abbiamo assolutamente bisogno di incrementare tale
numero e di arricchire il più presto possibile il patrimonio
bibliotecario italiano. Abbiamo distribuito un formulario sia in città
(per le strade) che ai nostri corsisti chiedendo cosa vorrebbero
trovare nella biblioteca d’italiano, cosa gli interessa e cosa sarebbe
utile per i loro interessi privati o il lavoro. Ecco i risultati:
RIVISTE:
economia
turismo
geografia
ecologia
storia
attualità
moda
poster dell’Italia
LIBRI:
narrativa
poesia
attualità
guide turistiche
storia
geografia
materiale didattico per l’apprendimento dell’italiano (grammatiche,
libri degli esercizi)
antologie letterarie
gastronomia.
CD – DVD – VHS
film
musica contemporanea
concerti
musica classica e lirica
documentari sull’Italia
pubblicità
cartoni animati.
In base a questa indagine siamo giunti alla seguente conclusione:
abbiamo bisogno di almeno 10.000 testi, tra cartacei e multimediali,
per riuscire a rispondere alle necessità non solo dei nostri iscritti,
ma anche delle persone che frequenterebbero la biblioteca se, questa,
fosse in grado di fornire il materiale necessario. Inoltre desideriamo
avviare collaborazioni con altre biblioteche italiane per lo scambio di
esperienze e di iniziative comuni.
> Da: "stratz\@libero\.it" <stratz @ libero.it>
> Data: Ven 4 Giu 2004 21:28:49 Europe/Rome
> A: "jugocoord" <jugocoord @ tiscali.it>
>
> Cari amici stiamo raccogliendo materiale pe rla biblioteca di Banja
> Luka(vedi allegato)pensavamo di portare un carico di libri in lingua
> italiana e altro ciao ciao
PROGETTO: BIBLIOTECA DI LINGUA E CULTURA ITALIANA
LOCAZIONE:
ASSOCIAZIONE “MARCO POLO” (ONG),
ul. Zmaj Jovina 13, Banja Luka Bosnia ed Erzegovina. tel/fax
+387-51-217057,
marcopolobl @ yahoo.com.
http://home.blic.net/marcopolobl/
PRESENTAZIONE
L’associazione “Marco Polo” opera dal 2001 per la divulgazione della
lingua e cultura italiana in Bosnia e di quella bosniaca in Italia. Le
principali attività dell’associazione sono:
organizzazione di eventi culturali: concerti, mostre fotografiche, di
pittura, di scultura, incontri letterari e di carattere sociale
(obiezione di coscienza e diritti umani;
organizzazione di corsi serali di italiano. Dal 2001 più di 3000
persone hanno frequentato i corsi di lingua italiana, di queste più di
70 hanno ottenuto borse di studio per perfezionare la lingua in Italia;
casa editrice. La Marco Polo ha pubblicato tre libri con testo a
fronte: A. Baricco “900”, Primo Levi “I sommersi e i salvati” e F.
Marinetti “11 baci a Rosa di Belgrado”;
assistenza e linguistica e logistica a persone italiane in transito o
per lavoro a BAnja Luka e dintorni e a bosniaci diretti in Italia.
SITUAZIONE ATTUALE
In presenza di un notevole interesse verso la lingua italiana,
quest’anno solo al primo livello del corso serale si sono iscritte più
di 500 corsisti, la “Marco Polo” deve fare fronte ad un sempre
crescente richiesta di libri e riviste in lingua italiana. Dal 2001
l’associazione, tramite donazioni, ha raccolto circa 2000 tra libri e
riviste in italiano ed ha inaugurato la prima biblioteca di tal genere
in tutta la Bosnia ed Erzegovina. Tale biblioteca si trova presso il
Ginnasio della città e le spese dell’affitto sono coperte dal Comune di
Banja Luka, che ha riconosciuto l’importanza e l’assoluta necessità
della presenza di questa istituzione culturale per tutta la
cittadinanza e non solo.
Si fa presente che presso l’Università di Banja Luka a settembre del
corrente anno, è stato inaugurato il primo corso di laurea in lingua e
letteratura italiana in tutta la Bosnia ed Erzegovina. Un
riconoscimento anche da parte del mondo accademico del sempre più
cospicuo bisogno di italianità da parte della città e della sua regione.
La biblioteca ha già iniziato a lavorare e a fornire i propri servizi.
L’orario di lavoro è dalle 10.00 alle 18.00, il sistema di
catalogazione dei testi è informatizzato. Abbiamo impiegato un membro
della “Marco Polo”, il quale, provvisto di una borsa di studio
dell’associazione, ha seguito un corso in gestione bibliotecaria presso
l’Università. Al momento attuale più di 100 persone sono fornite della
tessera di accesso ai servizi della biblioteca. Forniamo all’interno
della biblioteca un servizio fotocopie e i libri possono essere presi
in prestito per un massimo di 15 giorni, comunque il prestito è
ripetibile. La tessera ha un costo simbolico: 5 marchi l’anno.
OBIETTIVO
In base ad una nostra ricerca il numero di testi presenti in biblioteca
(2045) è assolutamente inferiore al bisogno e alle aspettative dei
frequentatori. Abbiamo assolutamente bisogno di incrementare tale
numero e di arricchire il più presto possibile il patrimonio
bibliotecario italiano. Abbiamo distribuito un formulario sia in città
(per le strade) che ai nostri corsisti chiedendo cosa vorrebbero
trovare nella biblioteca d’italiano, cosa gli interessa e cosa sarebbe
utile per i loro interessi privati o il lavoro. Ecco i risultati:
RIVISTE:
economia
turismo
geografia
ecologia
storia
attualità
moda
poster dell’Italia
LIBRI:
narrativa
poesia
attualità
guide turistiche
storia
geografia
materiale didattico per l’apprendimento dell’italiano (grammatiche,
libri degli esercizi)
antologie letterarie
gastronomia.
CD – DVD – VHS
film
musica contemporanea
concerti
musica classica e lirica
documentari sull’Italia
pubblicità
cartoni animati.
In base a questa indagine siamo giunti alla seguente conclusione:
abbiamo bisogno di almeno 10.000 testi, tra cartacei e multimediali,
per riuscire a rispondere alle necessità non solo dei nostri iscritti,
ma anche delle persone che frequenterebbero la biblioteca se, questa,
fosse in grado di fornire il materiale necessario. Inoltre desideriamo
avviare collaborazioni con altre biblioteche italiane per lo scambio di
esperienze e di iniziative comuni.
http://www.b92.net/intervju/eng/2004/nikolic.php
Interview with Tomislav Nikolic
The frontrunner in Serbia’s presidential election on June 13, according
to opinion polls, is the deputy leader of the Serbian Radical Party,
Tomislav Nikolic. The party is a former coalition partner of Slobodan
Milosevic’s Socialist Party of Serbia and its leader, Vojislav Seselj,
is, like Milosevic, now in custody in The Hague, awaiting trial on war
crime charges. B92’s Sanda Savic interviewed Nikolic two weeks before
the election.
Guest: Tomislav Nikolic
Author: Sanda Savic
B92: Tonight’s guest is the Serbian Radical Party’s presidential
candidate, Tomislav Nikolic. Good evening and welcome.
Nikolic: Good evening. I’m happy to be here.
B92: Your slogan in this campaign is “Realistic”. Last time around it
was “Radically Better”. Does this mean that you have given up the
concept of radical changes or is it only a change of image?
Nikolic: Yes. “Radically Better” was a slogan for the parliamentary
elections. I think we will have something very similar for the coming
extraordinary parliamentary elections, after the June 13 election. My
victory is really something realistic in Serbia and many people I have
heard in the street had guessed what our slogan would be.
B92: We shall begin by looking at one day of your election campaign.
We had a crew with you yesterday in Kragujevac, but before we see this
footage I must ask you to comment on the fact that Vojislav Seselj made
a decision not to vote in the presidential elections. Does this mean
that you have lost his support or is this also because of the change of
image?
Nikolic: It’s not that. I know Vojislav Seselj very well. When we
drafted the law on election of members of parliament we said that there
would not be any voting organised where there is no control and we
don’t want to damage any candidate or political party. There is no
control in The Hague, no one knows how people will vote there and,
because the Foreign Ministry will count the votes, Vojislav decided not
to give his vote away to anyone else, they would discard the ballot
slips and substitute new ones anyway. This time it’s the goat who is
guarding the cabbage.
B92: You say you don’t doubt his support. So why is it you have not
mentioned him during the past few days of the campaign?
Nikolic: What do you mean I haven’t mentioned him.
B92: You have?
Nikolic: What do you mean I’m not mentioning him? I’m not the kind of
person who would betray a friend and teacher. I’m not interested in
what other people think about whether I should betray someone or not.
I do everything according to my conscience.
VIDEO FOOTAGE FROM KRAGUJEVAC
Nikolic in Kragujevac: I want to make sure you sleep peacefully, that
you have security, that the government starts providing jobs for you
instead of closing down factories. There should be workers in the
factories, not rats. There should not be wind blowing through broken
windows. I want you to be able to be productive and I know where the
market is for our goods. It’s not in the West. I want to cooperate
with the West. I want to cooperate in a way in which no has had the
guts to cooperate for a long time. In the way I broke Harri Holkeri’s
back in Strasbourg fifteen days ago.
Radical Party supporter: It only seems that the party has changed a
lot, but basically nothing much has changed. They look a bit
different, nothing more.
STUDIO
B92: Mr Nikolic, how would you reply to this supporter of yours? Will
you tell him that you’re the same Toma, or…
Nikolic: He didn’t ask me anything.
B92: … are you discarding your earlier policies?
Nikolic: These observations are correct: nothing has changed. I’m
only fed up with being defeated by people not worthy of me. I think
that our response to what befell us last year is the correct one.
We’ve behaved ourselves all these fourteen or fifteen years when we
were under constant attack from our political opponents, the media, you
name it. Finally, the truth has come to the surface. The Serbian
Radical Party has climbed to the top in times when we were really under
threat. When they were persecuting us, beating us, harassing us and
arresting us, we behaved differently; we showed how good we are at
defending ourselves. Now, when no one is persecuting us and when we
have room for activity, it would be really stupid of us to do what is
not necessary.
B92: You mean to use the violent methods you used before?
Nikolic: To respond to violence, to respond to violence. I don’t know
of anyone except Milosevic accusing us of violence, we’ve never
committed violence.
B92: All right, we’ll come back to that later. Let’s talk now about
your main election messages. We heard in Kragujevac about the change
of foreign policy and the improvement of the economy: these are the
two things you most emphasise. Let’s start from the beginning. You
say you want both the West and the East.
Nikolic: Foreign policy is somewhat defined by the changes which took
place after 2000. The West has brought its protégés to power in
Serbia, they’ve been in power for four years and they’re still in
power, so I can’t say the West is not present here. It’s here, it’s
penetrated our society considerably, and in a bad way. It’s possible
that it had the best of intentions, but that the people in power here
have failed those intentions. We must cooperate with the West.
B92: And, in your opinion, who is our main partner in the West at the
moment?
Nikolic: The European Union, I think.
B92: You’ve heard what Javier Solana said: “If Tomislav Nikolic wins,
the EU won’t support him and this will be a very bad signal to foreign
investors.”
Nikolic: He didn’t say that.
B92: That is exactly what he said.
Nikolic: He said this very gently and mildly, choosing his words very
carefully. He said that he believes foreign investors will not be too
happy if I win.
B92: “It’s going to be a bad signal,” that’s what he said.
Nikolic: What, am I going to steal from foreign investors?
B92: They won’t invest in this country: you know that. That’s our
second topic tonight, the economy. Let’s see how you can…
Nikolic: Let’s clear this up, because you’re convinced Solana said
something which he didn’t say. Does the EU want to invest in a country
in which people like these are in power? Does it want to invest in a
country in which there have been a thousand companies privatised but
none of the factories are working?
B92: I agree with you. The EU is investing very little, but the
economy can’t get off the starting blocks without favourable loans or
foreign investments.
Nikolic: But we’re more in debt at this point than we were in Tito’s
day. Only now we’re not spending it on production but on consumption,
that’s the problem.
B92: We’ll talk about the economy later. First let’s finish with
foreign policy. Tell me…
Nikolic: And if they’re not investing much, what is it that’s going to
stop if I win?
B92: That little will stop.
Nikolic: That little.
B92: That little will stop and…
Nikolic: It’s not enough. I don’t want to live on charity, you know.
B92: It’s not charity. It’s loans and foreign investments.
Nikolic: That’s charity. These are loans for repaying old loans and
debts.
B92: And how would you solve it, if you’re so keen to talk about the
economy.
Nikolic: When I come here as prime minister designate you can ask me
all those questions. I have answers to all those questions.
B92: But your messages from the presidential election campaign rallies…
Nikolic: Yes, but you heard what I said. I’m going to make the
government… I really want to make the government…
B92: How are you going to make it?
Nikolic: What do you mean? I will use the Constitution. I control
the government. I hear gaffes from certain media, even Radio Belgrade,
they say the government and the parliament control the president. I
can’t believe it. I can’t believe that so many people have gone into
the contest with me. I control the Serbian Government. The prime
minister reports directly to me. Ministers report directly to me, they
answer my questions, they answer my criticism. I’d like on day to take
over your thankless role and ask the prime minister some questions here.
B92: Who knows, perhaps you will.
Nikolic: It’s a thankless job, thankless, that’s why I’m saying this.
I would really like to be unbiased, unlike some other people. I oppose
the government politically and I’m the one who will control it. The
citizens of Serbia don’t trust the others when they say they’ll control
the government. They don’t trust the government representative because
he can’t control his government and its prime minister. They don’t
trust people who say the government will support them in the second
round of elections. If they support you, you can’t criticise them.
You can’t criticise them because you’ve been elected by their votes.
B92: All right. Let’s get back to the West and the East.
Nikolic: Yes, why not?
B92: So how are you going to go to the West without the EU? The US,
perhaps?
Nikolic: I don’t know what you’re getting at. Let’s say I’m the
elected president of the republic.
B92: You’re not.
Nikolic: But you’re saying I am and asking me how I would do…
B92: All right, all right.
Nikolic: So, I’m the elected president of the republic, and you know
I’ll be elected.
Savic: I don’t know that.
Nikolic: Let’s say I’ll be the elected president. I want to be.
B92: You said “Only if I’m dead will I not be elected on June 13”.
Nikolic: That was a reply to a democratic message from the prime
minister which you refused to comment on.
B92: I’ll comment on it when he’s present.
Nikolic: He said, during his visit to the West, that Tomislav Nikolic
won’t be president of the republic. If I’d said that you’d say the
Chetniks are rising again, the rusty spoons will be out, you’d say all
those things about me. Then I asked the prime minister publicly why I
won’t be president if the people vote for me.
B92: So this was only a reply, you don’t actually believe that you
will win the first round?
Nikolic: I’m certain.
B92: About what?
Nikolic: That I’ll win the first round.
B92: All right.
Nikolic: I’m on the road every day. I have been to sixteen towns in
the Srednje Banatski District and we finished with the rally in
Zrenjanin today. Every day.
B92: Let’s get back to the West and the East.
Nikolic: Please do get back.
B92: How will you go to the West, and with what will you go to the
East?
Nikolic: I’m the elected president of the republic. I have a
government to control. I have a parliament which I appreciate and
respect deeply. I have the Constitutional Court, I should appreciate
and respect that and, if everything goes well and there are respected
lawyers in it and the professors from the Law School, we will have a
constitutional court we can respect. And then the Serbian Government
will conduct an economic policy – I assume G17 Plus won’t be part of
it, they’ll resign the day I win – and it will have to think about the
West and the East. It won’t be a problem.
B92: But what will you be thinking about?
Nikolic: I’ll be thinking about how the people live.
B92: Wait a minute, as president of the republic?
Nikolic: As president of the republic I have to think about how the
people are living.
B92: You’re supposed to represent the state.
Nikolic: And then I call up the government and ask them: have you done
anything in the West, have you secured investments, have you secured
the right technology, have you made it possible for our businessmen…
B92: And they say it’s problematic because you’re the president of the
republic.
Nikolic: They say it’s difficult because I’m not allowing mobsters to
run the state, it’s difficult because I insist so much on democracy,
it’s difficult because I insist on human rights, it’s difficult because
I insist on us observing the Constitution and the laws.
B92: All right, but how will you represent Serbia in the West as
president?
Nikolic: My only sin against Serbia would be if I don’t warn the
government about the rise of crime: people who sell drugs to kids;
people who buy our natural resources or factories for a pittance;
people who were paying politicians while they were in opposition and
who now have to return the favour.
B92: You haven’t told me about the West. Or would you rather talk
about the East?
Nikolic: No, I want to talk about the West. My door will be open.
I’ll respond to every invitation from the West. If someone wants to
talk to me I’ll talk with them. I’ll tell them the views I’m telling
you right now. I really can’t believe that the West wants Serbia to be
the way it is at the moment. Serbia in the past four years is Serbia
the way the West wants it! I want with all my heart to believe that
the West wishes us better things than that. I want the West to
convince us of that, not to praise a government under which a million
people lost their jobs, not to praise a government under which not a
single worker has gone into the factories. They’re all the same to me.
We’ve been without a constitutional court for a year and a half, now
we have a political court. We’ve had our prime minister assassinated,
we’ve had a state of emergency which introduced a dictatorship, we’ve
had voting fraud in the parliament, we’ve become a lot poorer and we’re
another nine years further away from Europe. Before 2000 they told us
we were ten years away from Europe. Four years have passed and we’re
now fifteen years away.
B92: Do you think if you are elected president it will bring us closer
to the West.
Nikolic: I don’t know.
B92: You don’t know?
Nikolic: It will depend on the West and the Republic of Serbia.
B92: As I said, there are certain messages.
Nikolic: I won’t make a single move to justify any kind of measure by
the West against Serbia. I’ve told the head of the EU monitoring
mission in Belgrade: “Say it openly: if Serbian citizens vote for
Tomislav Nikolic, we will bomb you, and then I’ll withdraw from
politics. Say it openly.”
B92: They won’t bomb us, but there is a certain kind of isolation they
could apply.
Nikolic: What will they say? “Let’s isolate the people of Serbia
because they voted for Tomislav Nikolic?” Come on! Those days are
behind us. Labus said in an interview today that there’ll be no
isolation and sanctions if Tomislav Nikolic wins.
B92: And on what are you basing your belief that there’ll be no
isolation?
Nikolic: On the fact that I will be elected by the people. On the
fact that I respect the Constitution and the law. On the fact that I
will help the government to work well and criticise it when it does
not. On the fact that I will stop laws which are unconstitutional and
put them into procedure immediately if they’re in accordance with the
Constitution. On the fact that I will fight for the rights of each
individual in Serbia, each and every one. What will the West have
against me then? Is the West against people like that? If it is, I
don’t want to be supported by the West. And if they support me with
views like these I have nothing to be ashamed of.
B92: All right, if we’ve exhausted the West, let’s talk about the East.
Nikolic: I think that the East is a much more unpleasant topic for you.
B92: No, there are no unpleasant topics for me.
Nikolic: I visited Moscow again for the first time in four or five
years and I saw what I sensed when I was initially for cooperation with
Russia. Russia has been through expansion, an economic boom. Russia
has a hundred billion dollars of foreign currency reserves and each
year a forty billion dollar surplus in foreign trade. There’s not a
single deputy in the Duma who is against cooperation with Serbia, not a
single one. In the Russian Duma, there’s not a single pro-Western
deputy, people have simply not voted for them. The Russian president
has offered a better life to his citizens. First, I told them
everything I don’t like about the Russian administration, not the
Russian people. I know about the ties between them and us, but I won’t
forget the vote for sanctions, the vote for the weapons import embargo,
that Chernomyrdin brought the plan, that Russia took part in drafting
Resolution 1244, that its battalion was the first to arrive in Pristina
– the Serbs were immensely delighted by that – and then moved to
Slatina Airport only to eventually return to Russia. They withdrew
from the Balkans because they didn’t count on us as strategic partners,
as having historical ties. And then, after I’d scheduled talks with
only one faction, all the rest called me and wanted to talk to me: the
foreign ministry, the president’s advisors…
B92: Did you meet Zhirinovsky?
Nikolic: No.
B92: Why not?
Nikolic: We’ve not been in contact for five years, even more. I don’t
count the time that DOS wasted, three or four years before that our
relations became cold. We haven’t been at each other’s congresses,
that cooperation has withered away. We have no concrete cooperation
any more: we have another political party to cooperate with in Russia.
When I arrived in Belgrade…
B92: That’s good. I apologise. Go on.
Nikolic: I have learnt that the prime minister will travel to Moscow
on June 3. I’m happy about that. He’ll find an open door there. He,
who hasn’t been to Moscow for five years, he whom Moscow…
B92: Do you think that we have a chance, economically speaking?
Nikolic: There’s no other way out.
B92: There’s no other way out. What can we do?
Nikolic: I’m going to tell you now.
B92: What can we offer to the East?
Nikolic: I’m going to tell you now. And what can we sell to the West?
That’s what hurts me the most: no one has the guts to say openly that
we don’t have any products for the West, not a single factory of ours
has products for the West; we’ve closed down our factories so that we
can sell Western products here and we even have to sell European sugar
on the Serbian market, we don’t have our own sugar any more. The
question is when the farmers will again be able to produce sugar. We
import it from Slovenia for four dinars and sell it for one. We import
it from Croatia for three dinars and export it for one. Don’t talk to
me about cooperation with the West any more. I want that cooperation.
I want new technology, I want the government to secure capital,
investments, good legislation, democracy, human rights, at the highest
possible level, but I know that Serbia cannot survive without factories.
B92: But can a factory work without loans and investments?
Nikolic: It can’t, all right, it can’t. But no one wanted to use the
convenience we created in 2000, in early 2000. I hear now that the
government has shown interest in it and even that several ministers
have travelled to Moscow to deal with this. We can sell almost eighty
per cent of our products in Russia without customs duties. Current
products, the ones we already have. Any company in the world can make
its products here and then transport them to Russia and they will be
cheaper than if they were made on ships in duty free zones. Why hasn’t
this opportunity been picked up in the past five years? Why have we
had to sink so low? Why have we had to become this poor? I don’t know
how much you travel around Serbia. I travel a lot these days. I meet
a lot of people, honourable, honest men and none of them are wealthy.
There are poor people living in Serbia today and I’m going to ask the
government some questions about them.
B92: Were you meeting those poor people when you were deputy prime
minister?
Nikolic: We had a lot of serious work in those days.
B92: It was a time when, it seems to me, all of us were poor.
Nikolic: Yes, but we were fighting terrorism then. We were defending
ourselves from NATO and we were rebuilding the country. Those were our
three tasks which we were engaged on for a year and a half and nothing
more could have been done.
B92: But you did manage to resolve your housing problems during that
period.
Nikolic: Yes. I did.
B92: And members of your party, too. Were you thinking about poor
people then?
Nikolic: What do you have against my solving housing problems?
B92: Did you buy an apartment of 187 square metres?
Nikolic: That’s not true. I live in a 90 square metre apartment.
B92: Because you had to sell the big one.
Nikolic: And why did I have to sell it?
B92: Why did you sell it?
Nikolic: Not to make money, but to pay the taxes invented by the state
on the apartment.
B92: Never mind, you had a place to live then.
Nikolic: And where was that?
B92: In a house in Kragujevac. Is that true?
Nikolic: But I live and work in Belgrade. My son lives with his wife
in my house in Kragujevac. This year I will have a grandchild.
B92: Do you think it’s all right for anyone who becomes a state
official to accept a large apartment and, when his term ends, not to
return it but to sell it off?
Nikolic: I didn’t accept the apartment to use it. I’ll move now to
the presidential residence. I’ll use it while I’m president of the
republic and then I’ll leave it to the new president. What’s this got
to do with the East?
B92: It was you who turned the topic back to the West, but as we were
speaking about poor people, I wanted to ask you whether you had thought
at all about all of us being very poor at the time.
Nikolic: I thought about it. But I had to live somewhere, a million
people in Serbia live in apartments.
B92: Yes, but they don’t have a house and an apartment of 187 square
metres.
Nikolic: You can’t count a house which is a hundred and fifty
kilometres away.
B92: I say you could have returned your apartment.
Nikolic: A house a hundred and fifty kilometres away has never been an
obstacle to getting an apartment in any company I have worked for.
B92: Yes, but…
Nikolic: I want to tell you all…
B92: Yes, you want to talk about everything. That’s why you’re here.
Nikolic: But I don’t know the question.
B92: Make yourself at home. Say it.
Nikolic: No, you do it, please.
B92: What questions did you expect?
Nikolic: The ones B92 would ask a Serbian Radical.
B92: And what questions are they?
Nikolic: You haven’t tackled The Hague yet.
B92: No.
Nikolic: Do you want to talk about bread?
B92: Bread?
Nikolic: Yes. Three dinars for a loaf of bread.
B92: We can talk about bread. Not about three dinars a loaf, but I’m
interested in the kind of economic system you have in mind, we can come
to that later.
Nikolic: What did you have in mind. Feel free to use your prepared
script.
B92: Prepared script?
Nikolic: Yes.
B92: I should have liked to talk a little more about the government.
Nikolic: I don’t believe I have intrigued you enough to ask more
questions. I think you’ve already asked them all.
B92: I want to talk about the honourable behaviour of the Serbian
Radicals when they are in government. How they find themselves
apartments.
Nikolic: Have you revealed anything new to the Serbian citizens. Have
I been secretive about this?
B92: I’d like you to comment on your behaviour in Zemun.
Nikolic: I want to get this over with. Do you think it would be
better if I took a hundred or two hundred thousand Deutschmarks from
the Mob and bought myself an apartment so that no one could bother me
about it?
B92: What kind of comparison is that? I don’t know what you mean.
Nikolic: It’s a powerful comparison. Everyone in DOS was doing it and
you’ve never asked them about it.
B92: It’s not true that we didn’t, but tonight you’re the guest here
and because you claim that the Serbian Radicals have nothing to do with
crime…
Nikolic: Tell me about Zemun. What’s wrong with Zemun?
B92: There are a lot of things wrong. I have a pile of documents
here. I’ll give them to you, although you already have them.
Nikolic: What you can give me isn’t important. Let’s see what we can
do while we’re on the air.
B92: We’ve obtained court records on some of this material. There’s
an enormous amount of documentation on how the Radicals behaved between
1996 and 2000 in the municipality of Zemun. There’s a debt of
sixty-eight million dinars; the courts established that there was a
series of abuses related to business premises in Zemun, and; according
to the financial police the Radicals received at least a million and a
half euros in campaign funding and gifts.
Nikolic: You see, there’s only one…
B92: All right, we can go through them one by one now…
Nikolic: There’s only one court case and only one man in question.
There is only one indictment against one man from the Serbian Radical
Party and you’re talking about an ongoing case. Nothing has been
proved, whether we’re guilty or not, but you say it’s fact because you
received it from the Zemun Municipality.
B92: I’m asking you, do you want to talk about these one by one?
Nikolic: Please do ask me. But I have to tell your viewers that not a
single Radical is in prison, not a single one has been convicted, and
we lost power in Zemun five years ago. Last year we had a landslide in
both the presidential and the parliamentary elections in Zemun. In the
parliamentary elections, in Zemun we had more votes than all our
opponents put together. That’s the attitude of the citizens of Zemun
to our tenure. All right, now tell me what the attitude of the
outgoing authorities is to our tenure in Zemun.
B92: But the people of Zemun probably don’t know, for example, that
they could have had two million dinars per month more if you had not
been leasing the Magistrate Building, more than two thousand square
metres, for 1.57 dinars per square metre. Is that honourable behaviour?
Nikolic: Yes, it is.
B92: It is?
Nikolic: Yes. All parliamentary parties in Belgrade lease offices for
prices like that. We’re not a profit-making organisation: we’re paid
by the state. Why don’t you ask in which parts of town and in what
kind of buildings other parties have their offices.
B92: I’ll ask them when they’re here. Now I’m asking you.
Nikolic: But that’s the law. Those are the regulations. It’s a city
decree. We weren’t in power in the city, we went to Zemun. Everyone
else was in central Belgrade in huge offices, don’t we have the right
to do that? What are we? Aliens?” Under what conditions do we have a
long term lease?
B92: Shall we move on?
Nikolic: We have a long term lease in accordance with the law. We
have a long term lease contract, there’s nothing questionable about
that, it’s fully in line with the law. The price is not questionable
at all.
B92: I’m asking you whether it’s honourable behaviour: you say it is.
All right, you’ve answered my question, may we move on?
Nikolic: But please, listen to me. Thirty political parties in
Belgrade have offices like that. It’s an honourable thing for
political parties to have a place where they work.
B92: All right. Is it honourable, then, for Dragan Todorovic to
lease, on October 3, 2000, a thousand square metres of land in Zemun
for a dinar per square metre for thirty years?
Nikolic: Let me ask you something now. As Dragan Todorovic has sued
everyone who said this, are you reporting someone else’s words or will
he be able to sue you because these are your words?
B92: Here. I can give you the documents.
Nikolic: Let me ask you: according to the law are you not responsible
if you report someone else’s information? Is this your information?
Are these your words?
B92: This is a report from the Zemun Municipality from a meeting held
on October 2. A dinar per square metre per month.
Nikolic: It’s not true.
B92: One day later they changed it to a dinar per square metre per
year. For thirty years.
Nikolic: It’s not true. They’re lying.
B92: They’re lying? This is a forgery?
Nikolic: It’s not true. There are court proceedings under way.
B92: Okay, it’s a forgery then.
Nikolic: There’s a trial under way and Dragan Todorovic has sued all
of them.
B92: All right. We have Gordana Pop Lazic, then. Very similar thing.
There’s a contract, she also got some land.
Nikolic: I don’t know about her. Where did she get the land?
B92: She also got land.
Nikolic: Where did she get land.
B92: In Zemun, also. Land to build a private house. She and her
father, Andrija Milic of Barajevo, signed the contract jointly.
Nikolic: Please don’t do this.
B92: I’ll give you the document. Do you want something that concerns
you?
Nikolic: Yes.
B92: Let’s see something that concerns you. We have another
interesting matter here, financing of the Serbian Radical Party from
the municipal budget and the budget of the public community works. The
money was transferred from the municipality to your party’s account.
Nikolic: How?
B92: Do you see this? The local Zemun paper, you must remember this.
Nikolic: Yes.
B92: Five hundred thousand copies were printed. And five hundred
thousand Deutschmarks were transferred to make this.
Nikolic: Are you sure it was five hundred thousand Deutschmarks?
B92: Five hundred thousand Deutschmarks. In dinars it was two point
one million dinars. It’s all here.
Nikolic: Why has it been converted into Marks?
B92: So that…
Nikolic: So that one copy cost one Mark.
B92: Who needs half a million copies of the Zemun paper? How many
people live in Zemun?
Nikolic: Where does it say five hundred thousand copies were printed?
B92: Here, take a look.
Nikolic: Does it say so in the paper?
B92: It does.
Nikolic: What does it say?
B92: It says…
Nikolic: Circulation.
B92: Circulation. Circulation. Five hundred thousand.
Nikolic: Copies.
B92: Yes. Take a look if you don’t believe me. Read it for yourself.
Nikolic: That’s the Zemun paper?
B92: Yes. The Zemun paper.
Nikolic: Do you have anything else?
B92: I have loads of things, but I still haven’t had a single answer
from you.
Nikolic: You don’t have anything.
B92: I haven’t had a single answer. I have a heap of material. An
enormous number of facts.
Nikolic: I knew this program would be like this.
B92: An enormous number of facts. I can read them out to you.
Nikolic: Don’t read someone else’s facts to me.
B92: These are not someone else’s facts.
Nikolic: Why didn’t you approach me with these before this program?
B92: The Serbian Public Revenue Bureau. A report. Listen to this.
Nikolic: I can’t respond to lies.
B92: These aren’t lies. This is an audit report.
Nikolic: Lies.
B92: This is a report on the audit of business dealings by the Zemun
Corporate Business System between January 1, 1997, and December 31,
2000. The register has been extracted to Tomislav Nikolic. That means
you have this too.
Nikolic: I have never worked in the Zemun Computer Business System.
B92: Excuse me?
Nikolic: I have never worked in the Zemun Computer Business System.
B92: This is public information. I’ve just told you it was the
Serbian Public Revenue Bureau.
Nikolic: I’m telling you something.
B92: All right.
Nikolic: Let me ask you one thing.
B92: Please do.
Nikolic: If you’re a good journalist, why didn’t you ask me to prepare
my answers in advance?
B92: This isn’t the first time these allegations have been made. I’ve
only asked you to comment on them.
Nikolic: These lies have never before been gathered in a heap like
this.
B92: Whether they are lies in a heap or not, I’m presenting them to
you for comment.
Nikolic: They’re piled up, these lies. Why didn’t you tell me? I
thought we were going to talk about the future of Serbia.
B92: We’ll talk about it now. You provoked me…
Nikolic: We won’t.
B92: … by talking about people being poor.
Nikolic: I haven’t provoked you at all.
B92: You’ve been talking about the poor people you meet in the city
squares so I needed to remind you of your honourable behaviour in the
past.
Nikolic: Why are you working so hard to prove the kind of television
this is?
B92: What kind of television is that?
Nikolic: Why am I a thorn in your side?
B92: Why are you a thorn in your side?
Nikolic: I’m a candidate for the president of the republic.
B92: That’s why you’re here tonight. To present yourself.
Nikolic: Yes, that’s why I’m here. Why didn’t you tell me you would
talk about Zemun so that I could bring the documentation?
B92: I have given you documentation which is public knowledge.
Nikolic: What have you given me?
B92: The documentation.
Nikolic: Can’t you see we’re sitting five metres apart?
B92: You have not answered a single question for me, but let’s forget
about that.
Nikolic: What can I tell you about stories about us launched by you,
Blic and some other news agencies.
B92: These are not stories. These are documents, as you can see.
Nikolic: They are stories. But why are we talking about them tonight?
Have I come here…
B92: You don’t want to talk any more?
Nikolic: Have I come here as a candidate for the presidency of the
republic?
B92: Yes. Yes, you have.
Nikolic: Then why don’t you talk to me in a way appropriate to that?
B92: I have, and you said “I will help the people to live better”.
Nikolic: But you’re doing it without motivation.
B92: I am saying…
Nikolic: But you’re doing this without motivation.
B92: No, I’m only saying…
Nikolic: I can see it in your eyes.
B92: I can take you at your word, but I have to judge you on your past
deeds.
Nikolic: Are you trying to justify something tonight?
B92: Absolutely not.
Nikolic: Are you trying to justify something tonight, some money,
perhaps?
B92: I have not had an answer to these questions. Money? We have no
reason…
Nikolic: You have no money?
B92: B92 has no reason to seek justifications of that kind. Let’s
take a commercial break now.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
B92: Our guest tonight is the Serbian Radical Party’s presidential
candidate, Tomislav Nikolic, who is still in the studio with us. Our
viewers have sent a lot of questions for you tonight, and I’ll ask some
of them myself. I’ll read as many as we have time for later, but a lot
of them are from people who have come from Croatia. They’re asking if
you will stick to your position that if you become president of Serbia
you will break all diplomatic communication with Croatia.
Nikolic: Unfortunately, that’s not in my jurisdiction, but I have one
clear message for Croatia. The authorities which call themselves
democratic will become democratic for me the very moment they allow
Serbs to return, and that’s all I have to say about Croatia. I would
remind them of the genocide they committed, I’m not reminding them that
there’s not a single Serb left in the whole territory of Croatia, that
many people are changing their religion, that children are changing
their names. I would remind them that they have to do a great deal in
order to gain the trust of Serbia, enough trust for us to have
diplomatic relations with Croatia. I’m only reminding them that
they’ve expelled people and not allowed them to return while, at the
same time, they want trade and other relations with us. We’re rather
hypocritical when we want to cooperate with Croatia: we take special
care of our refugees, offer them attention and kindness, but we are
unwilling to resolve their problems.
B92: And will you be helping Serbs to return to Croatia with this
attitude?
Nikolic: But I’m presenting my point clearly and cleanly. So far no
one has helped them to return, not with a different view, the complete
humiliation of Serbia and humiliation of them. You know, when you
visit them at the top of a mountain, in a ruined building, where
children and the elderly and the middle-aged all live together, then
you start thinking differently about them.
B92: Is there any other neighbouring country you would not go to?
Nikolic: I have nothing to do in Slovenia. I have nothing to do in
Croatia. Why should I go there?
B92: There are constitutional jurisdictions. This is also laid out in
your presidential platform: the Serbian president is the head of state
and represents…
Nikolic: Yes, he conducts diplomatic relations on all levels, of
course, but I think that the level of diplomatic support Serbia needs
right now for Kosovo and many other issues is not the level of Slovenia
and Croatia. It has to be done with the big players.
B92: As you’ve mentioned Kosovo, how do think Albanian extremists
would react to you winning the presidential election?
Nikolic: Who knows what goes on in the heads of extremists or how they
would react?
B92: And Albanians in general? How would they react?
Nikolic: I don’t understand the question. I’ve taken part…
B92: Would it suit their efforts for Kosovo’s independence?
Nikolic: How could my winning help them with that?
B92: You’re not electing yourself.
Nikolic: And is it any better the way it is? At the moment they’re
certainly prevented from winning independence. The state of Serbia and
the West are right now stopping them in their attempts to win
independence. Come on, I said it clearly and openly in Strasbourg.
First Harri Holkeri was speaking and everyone applauded. Then I said
“Why are you all applauding? This man here supports killers, people
who burn down churches and houses. He gave them a foreign ministry,
he’s giving them elections on October 23, which he says they will
conduct themselves. Why are you applauding?” Do you think that Serbia
hasn’t managed to persuade Albanians in the past five years that they
won’t have their own state? I think that they’ve rather convinced them
that they will have their own state. We should start working from
scratch. Draft a platform for a political solution to the Kosovo
crisis. The whole parliament has been active in this, I’m not standing
out as an individual on this matter: this is what all the people of
Serbia want. Kosovo must be part of Serbia, whether anyone is happy
about it or not, whether someone is disgruntled about it or not. It’s
defined in Resolution 1244. I didn’t write it, I was unhappy with it,
but now it’s our last hope. For five years the United Nations has
refused to meet the conditions of the resolution while we did whatever
they wanted. Every high representative revises the resolution every
day. We’ve come to the position that a new one should be written just
to cover what they’ve done so far.
B92: And what can you do to improve this situation? Increase
diplomatic activity?
Nikolic: Of course. We have to find our own protector out in the
world. I don’t know what our diplomats are doing, apart from closing
deal for businessmen in the countries they’re posted to, for a
commission, besides discrediting our country and telling everyone we
committed genocide. I don’t know what else our Foreign Ministry has
been doing.
B92: We’re back to my earlier question. To what extent are you able
to represent us, because a lot of doors around the world will probably
remain closed to you?
Nikolic: I probably wouldn’t be able to represent you, but I’ll
certainly be able to represent the majority of Serbian citizens.
B92: And why not me? You said all citizens.
Nikolic: I see you have different political views and, whatever I do,
I won’t please you. I’m really prepared to do everything for every
Serbian citizens, but something bothers certain individuals. Is it the
word “Radical”? I don’t know what it is. But we, who had three
hundred thousand votes in 2000, will now have a million and five
hundred thousand votes. That means we’ve probably been doing something
right in the past four years.
B92: All right. I’d like us to see a little history of the Serbian
Radical Party over the past few years, and then we’ll talk about it.
RECORDED SEQUENCE:
Presenter: The Serbian Radical Party was founded as an opposition
party, but the first decade of pluralist politics in Serbia showed that
it had more fruitful cooperation with the parties in power, such as the
Socialist Party of Serbia and the Yugoslav Left. While close to other
opposition parties for a brief period in 1993, by calling for the
ousting of the Socialist Government, the Radicals brought about early
parliamentary elections in Serbia, but did not take part in any mass
protest against Slobodan Milosevic before or since. They joined the
government with the Socialists and the Yugoslav Left in 1998, only to
be ousted along with them in 2000. They were the only party in the
governing coalition to acknowledge the victory of the democratic
opposition before the popular uprising on October 5, that year. In
2002, Slobodan Milosevic, from The Hague, gave his support in the
presidential elections to his “favourite opposition politician”,
referring to Radical leader Vojislav Seselj in the same way he had
during the nineties.
In the federal and republic parliaments, the Radicals have introduced
such techniques as destroying microphones, throwing water in their
opponents’ faces, punch-ups and other forms of obstructing the work of
the parliament.
Outside the parliament, students, taxi drivers, pensioners and some
lawyers have felt the wrath of the Radicals on their own skin. Their
opponents accuse them of using their period of power in the
Municipality of Zemun for financial machination, usurpation of
apartments, land and the Magistrate Building.
The Radicals respond by saying that these claims have not been proved
in court. The Serbian Radical Party lays great emphasis on patriotism
and the fact that they took part in the wars across the former
Yugoslavia. Vojislav Seselj refuses to give up his vision of Greater
Serbia, even in his prison cell in The Hague.
Seselj: Karlobag-Ogulin-Karlovac-Vitrovitica must be our option and
that’s the border line along which our army must deploy all our troops.
If it’s not capable of withdrawing troops from Zagreb without a fight,
it should withdraw them in a combat operation while Zagreb is being
bombed. That official operation was planned in Belgrade. It included
Bosnian Serb forces, many of them, but the majority of the special
forces came from this side, special police units, the so-called Red
Berets, special units of State Security and volunteers from the Serbian
Radical Party.
If NATO begins bombing us, if the US aggression ensues, we Serbs will
die in great numbers, but there won’t be a single Albanian left in
Kosovo.
Presenter: The Serbian Radical Party is the only political to have
been boycotted for period by the majority of independent media in
Serbia after threats and unfounded allegations that journalists were
accessories to the murder of Defence Minister Pavle Bulatovic. Even
today the Radicals don’t hesitate to say that they don’t regret the
death of publisher Slavko Curuvija, killed in central Belgrade at
Easter, 1999.
Seselj: The gloves are off. Everything has become crystal clear. He
who lives by the sword shall die by the sword, you need to keep that in
mind. You surely don’t think we will let you kill us off, one by one,
like rabbits, while we caress you and cherish you like potted plants.
Keep that in mind. You from B92 and the other traitor outlets. You
want to kill off statesmen like rabbits and keep yourselves safe at the
same time. Well, you’re mistaken. You’re very, very mistaken. No
more kid gloves. Anyone who works for the Americans will have to
suffer the consequences.
Interviewer: Would you take back the sentence “I don’t regret that
Slavko Curuvija was murdered”?
Tomislav Nikolic: No.
Interviewer: You wouldn’t take back the sentence. You still stand
behind it. You would repeat it again.
Tomislav Nikolic: What about it?
Interviewer: Nothing, I’m just asking. It’s just that I’m a little
bit disgusted.
Tomislav Nikolic: The fact that you’re disgusted doesn’t mean it’s not
nice.
STUDIO
B92: Mr Nikolic, how do you comment on this today?
Nikolic: I don’t know what.
B92: Everything you have just heard. Is there anything in this story
we’ve just heard that you would renounce today?
Nikolic: No.
B92: No? That’s it?
Nikolic: You tell me what.
B92: For example, what about the list of journalists which Mr Seselj
read out. He said on a number of occasions that he was only adding to
the list. Did he leave it to you as a legacy?
Nikolic: It is a list of journalists we don’t want to cooperate with.
B92: So the list still exists? You haven’t torn it up and thrown
away? You still stick to it?
Nikolic: I’m offering you tonight an opportunity to show Serbia that
you are at least to a small extent a good television, because for you
the Radical Party doesn’t exist. This is a goodwill gesture from me
because I want to cooperate with everyone, even with you who wish us
nothing but ill.
B92: You’ve changed your rhetoric: you no longer issue death threats,
nor do you threaten the people That’s why you’re here tonight. And,
among other things, because you’re a presidential candidate.
Nikolic: That’s not true.
B92: That’s the way it is.
Nikolic: And tonight of all nights, five years after we changed our
rhetoric. Come on!
B92: We have three or four minutes left. So you wouldn’t take back
anything of what we’ve shown here.
Nikolic: I don’t know what you mean. What exactly do you want to ask
me? What is wrong there?
B92: I’ve asked you about the lists.
Nikolic: You say our political opponents say we were thieves. The
Radicals say the truth will be proved in court. Is that journalism?
B92: We’ve heard many opinions from Mr Seselj. You say you still
stand behind them. I was only interested in that.
Nikolic: I knew you were only interested in that.
B92: Let’s go to some of the questions from our viewers. As
president, will you pardon the former head of state television,
Dragoljub Milanovic?
Nikolic: First I would have to look into the case, but I’m not afraid
to pardon him if something is not right. I won’t pardon notorious
criminals, the ones who sell drugs to kids, rapists, people sentenced
by politics to long prison sentences. I’ll look into the case in
detail. Or do you perhaps think Dragoljub Milanovic is guilty? Or may
he have been a scapegoat? In that case thousands of people should be
in prison, because NATO told us we were collateral damage, everything
they hit was a legitimate target. They were hitting hospitals. So all
the heads of hospitals should be in prison. You’ve set your sights on
Dragoljub Milanovic, he’s the embodiment of evil for you. He ran a
really bad television station but, believe me, it may not have been
half as bad as yours.
B92: As ours?
Nikolic: Yes.
B92: All right.
Nikolic: He supported Slobodan Milosevic and the Yugoslav Left a lot
less than you support these others.
B92: I shan’t comment on that, we don’t have time. Next question: why
is Tomislav Nikolic afraid of a television debate with Boris Tadic.
Nikolic: It’s not that I’m afraid. If he gets through to the second
round we’ll have that television debate. All fourteen candidates can
seek a television debate with me, first they have to decide who
deserves to be in a television debate with me. Why Boris Tadic? What
reason is there for me to accept a debate with Boris Tadic.
B92: You don’t trust the opinion polls?
Nikolic: When did I ever trust the opinion polls? When did you?
B92: Then how do you know that you will win? How many did you say? A
million and a half votes?
Nikolic: I’m out there, from morning to evening, every day.
B92: So you count?
Nikolic: Look at the rallies. You avoided showing Kragujevac…
B92: How many people were there in Kragujevac?
Nikolic: … masses of people.
B92: How many people were there in Kragujevac?
Nikolic: All the others put together wouldn’t have that many…
B92: Tell us, how many were there?
Nikolic: I don’t know, I don’t count.
B92: Well, you must have some kind of estimate. You know how it is at
the rallies.
Nikolic: The only bigger rally we had in Kragujevac was in 1992, and
never after that. But how many people was that?
B92: Approximately? A thousand? Ten thousand?
Nikolic: I think it was ten thousand.
B92: Ten thousand?
Nikolic: Okay, someone else can say five hundred, but when you
consider the size of the square, and if people are standing close
together three of them fit into a square metre. The journalists who
was with us yesterday could have measured the square and say not more
than a thousand. That’s ten thousand, but also fifty thousand.
B92: When you say more than a thousand, that’s not ten thousand, not
even close.
Nikolic: How many is over a thousand, tell me so that I know in the
future?
B92: Okay. Now, to finish, let me ask you a question. Do you watch
Mile vs. Transition?
Nikolic: Not since he announced he was a member of the Democratic
Party. Up to then I liked the show.
B92: Do you identify yourself at all with that character?
Nikolic: Well, no. I appreciate art expressed in any way, but I don’t
like political campaigns on television which are aimed at drawing us
into a particular policy through a likeable actor. I don’t like it and
I steer clear of it.
B92: All right, and let me ask you, if you go through to the second
round of the election, and you probably will, all the opinion polls say
you will, will you come to this studio with your opponent?
Nikolic: Let me tell you something. I don’t think we will have
debates every day. I think we should have the debate on a much more
serious television station than yours.
B92: Such as?
Nikolic: Any other, really, your television is not in that league.
B92: Yes, it is the least serious of all.
Nikolic: Well, it’s not among the least serious ones. I go to
television stations which are watched only in, for example, Blace, but
trust me, don’t underestimate them. There are a lot more serious
people in small television stations than in the so-called big ones.
B92: All right, before we wrap this up, tell us what kind of
television station we are.
Nikolic: Usually very bad, partial and biased, and that’s standing in
your way. Take a look at the number of people who watch you. I’ll
come whenever you invite me. I won’t run away from it, but change the
direction a little. Or maybe you can’t, because you wouldn’t be
getting any money then.
B92: I hope our viewers have gained a little more insight into what
the Serbian Radical Party is today, and whether you are the former
Tomislav Nikolic or the only you would like to present yourself as
today.
Nikolic: You haven’t devoted this show to presenting me as a
presidential candidate, but I won’t hold that against you.
B92: Thank you very much for being our guest tonight. Good night.
Interview with Tomislav Nikolic
The frontrunner in Serbia’s presidential election on June 13, according
to opinion polls, is the deputy leader of the Serbian Radical Party,
Tomislav Nikolic. The party is a former coalition partner of Slobodan
Milosevic’s Socialist Party of Serbia and its leader, Vojislav Seselj,
is, like Milosevic, now in custody in The Hague, awaiting trial on war
crime charges. B92’s Sanda Savic interviewed Nikolic two weeks before
the election.
Guest: Tomislav Nikolic
Author: Sanda Savic
B92: Tonight’s guest is the Serbian Radical Party’s presidential
candidate, Tomislav Nikolic. Good evening and welcome.
Nikolic: Good evening. I’m happy to be here.
B92: Your slogan in this campaign is “Realistic”. Last time around it
was “Radically Better”. Does this mean that you have given up the
concept of radical changes or is it only a change of image?
Nikolic: Yes. “Radically Better” was a slogan for the parliamentary
elections. I think we will have something very similar for the coming
extraordinary parliamentary elections, after the June 13 election. My
victory is really something realistic in Serbia and many people I have
heard in the street had guessed what our slogan would be.
B92: We shall begin by looking at one day of your election campaign.
We had a crew with you yesterday in Kragujevac, but before we see this
footage I must ask you to comment on the fact that Vojislav Seselj made
a decision not to vote in the presidential elections. Does this mean
that you have lost his support or is this also because of the change of
image?
Nikolic: It’s not that. I know Vojislav Seselj very well. When we
drafted the law on election of members of parliament we said that there
would not be any voting organised where there is no control and we
don’t want to damage any candidate or political party. There is no
control in The Hague, no one knows how people will vote there and,
because the Foreign Ministry will count the votes, Vojislav decided not
to give his vote away to anyone else, they would discard the ballot
slips and substitute new ones anyway. This time it’s the goat who is
guarding the cabbage.
B92: You say you don’t doubt his support. So why is it you have not
mentioned him during the past few days of the campaign?
Nikolic: What do you mean I haven’t mentioned him.
B92: You have?
Nikolic: What do you mean I’m not mentioning him? I’m not the kind of
person who would betray a friend and teacher. I’m not interested in
what other people think about whether I should betray someone or not.
I do everything according to my conscience.
VIDEO FOOTAGE FROM KRAGUJEVAC
Nikolic in Kragujevac: I want to make sure you sleep peacefully, that
you have security, that the government starts providing jobs for you
instead of closing down factories. There should be workers in the
factories, not rats. There should not be wind blowing through broken
windows. I want you to be able to be productive and I know where the
market is for our goods. It’s not in the West. I want to cooperate
with the West. I want to cooperate in a way in which no has had the
guts to cooperate for a long time. In the way I broke Harri Holkeri’s
back in Strasbourg fifteen days ago.
Radical Party supporter: It only seems that the party has changed a
lot, but basically nothing much has changed. They look a bit
different, nothing more.
STUDIO
B92: Mr Nikolic, how would you reply to this supporter of yours? Will
you tell him that you’re the same Toma, or…
Nikolic: He didn’t ask me anything.
B92: … are you discarding your earlier policies?
Nikolic: These observations are correct: nothing has changed. I’m
only fed up with being defeated by people not worthy of me. I think
that our response to what befell us last year is the correct one.
We’ve behaved ourselves all these fourteen or fifteen years when we
were under constant attack from our political opponents, the media, you
name it. Finally, the truth has come to the surface. The Serbian
Radical Party has climbed to the top in times when we were really under
threat. When they were persecuting us, beating us, harassing us and
arresting us, we behaved differently; we showed how good we are at
defending ourselves. Now, when no one is persecuting us and when we
have room for activity, it would be really stupid of us to do what is
not necessary.
B92: You mean to use the violent methods you used before?
Nikolic: To respond to violence, to respond to violence. I don’t know
of anyone except Milosevic accusing us of violence, we’ve never
committed violence.
B92: All right, we’ll come back to that later. Let’s talk now about
your main election messages. We heard in Kragujevac about the change
of foreign policy and the improvement of the economy: these are the
two things you most emphasise. Let’s start from the beginning. You
say you want both the West and the East.
Nikolic: Foreign policy is somewhat defined by the changes which took
place after 2000. The West has brought its protégés to power in
Serbia, they’ve been in power for four years and they’re still in
power, so I can’t say the West is not present here. It’s here, it’s
penetrated our society considerably, and in a bad way. It’s possible
that it had the best of intentions, but that the people in power here
have failed those intentions. We must cooperate with the West.
B92: And, in your opinion, who is our main partner in the West at the
moment?
Nikolic: The European Union, I think.
B92: You’ve heard what Javier Solana said: “If Tomislav Nikolic wins,
the EU won’t support him and this will be a very bad signal to foreign
investors.”
Nikolic: He didn’t say that.
B92: That is exactly what he said.
Nikolic: He said this very gently and mildly, choosing his words very
carefully. He said that he believes foreign investors will not be too
happy if I win.
B92: “It’s going to be a bad signal,” that’s what he said.
Nikolic: What, am I going to steal from foreign investors?
B92: They won’t invest in this country: you know that. That’s our
second topic tonight, the economy. Let’s see how you can…
Nikolic: Let’s clear this up, because you’re convinced Solana said
something which he didn’t say. Does the EU want to invest in a country
in which people like these are in power? Does it want to invest in a
country in which there have been a thousand companies privatised but
none of the factories are working?
B92: I agree with you. The EU is investing very little, but the
economy can’t get off the starting blocks without favourable loans or
foreign investments.
Nikolic: But we’re more in debt at this point than we were in Tito’s
day. Only now we’re not spending it on production but on consumption,
that’s the problem.
B92: We’ll talk about the economy later. First let’s finish with
foreign policy. Tell me…
Nikolic: And if they’re not investing much, what is it that’s going to
stop if I win?
B92: That little will stop.
Nikolic: That little.
B92: That little will stop and…
Nikolic: It’s not enough. I don’t want to live on charity, you know.
B92: It’s not charity. It’s loans and foreign investments.
Nikolic: That’s charity. These are loans for repaying old loans and
debts.
B92: And how would you solve it, if you’re so keen to talk about the
economy.
Nikolic: When I come here as prime minister designate you can ask me
all those questions. I have answers to all those questions.
B92: But your messages from the presidential election campaign rallies…
Nikolic: Yes, but you heard what I said. I’m going to make the
government… I really want to make the government…
B92: How are you going to make it?
Nikolic: What do you mean? I will use the Constitution. I control
the government. I hear gaffes from certain media, even Radio Belgrade,
they say the government and the parliament control the president. I
can’t believe it. I can’t believe that so many people have gone into
the contest with me. I control the Serbian Government. The prime
minister reports directly to me. Ministers report directly to me, they
answer my questions, they answer my criticism. I’d like on day to take
over your thankless role and ask the prime minister some questions here.
B92: Who knows, perhaps you will.
Nikolic: It’s a thankless job, thankless, that’s why I’m saying this.
I would really like to be unbiased, unlike some other people. I oppose
the government politically and I’m the one who will control it. The
citizens of Serbia don’t trust the others when they say they’ll control
the government. They don’t trust the government representative because
he can’t control his government and its prime minister. They don’t
trust people who say the government will support them in the second
round of elections. If they support you, you can’t criticise them.
You can’t criticise them because you’ve been elected by their votes.
B92: All right. Let’s get back to the West and the East.
Nikolic: Yes, why not?
B92: So how are you going to go to the West without the EU? The US,
perhaps?
Nikolic: I don’t know what you’re getting at. Let’s say I’m the
elected president of the republic.
B92: You’re not.
Nikolic: But you’re saying I am and asking me how I would do…
B92: All right, all right.
Nikolic: So, I’m the elected president of the republic, and you know
I’ll be elected.
Savic: I don’t know that.
Nikolic: Let’s say I’ll be the elected president. I want to be.
B92: You said “Only if I’m dead will I not be elected on June 13”.
Nikolic: That was a reply to a democratic message from the prime
minister which you refused to comment on.
B92: I’ll comment on it when he’s present.
Nikolic: He said, during his visit to the West, that Tomislav Nikolic
won’t be president of the republic. If I’d said that you’d say the
Chetniks are rising again, the rusty spoons will be out, you’d say all
those things about me. Then I asked the prime minister publicly why I
won’t be president if the people vote for me.
B92: So this was only a reply, you don’t actually believe that you
will win the first round?
Nikolic: I’m certain.
B92: About what?
Nikolic: That I’ll win the first round.
B92: All right.
Nikolic: I’m on the road every day. I have been to sixteen towns in
the Srednje Banatski District and we finished with the rally in
Zrenjanin today. Every day.
B92: Let’s get back to the West and the East.
Nikolic: Please do get back.
B92: How will you go to the West, and with what will you go to the
East?
Nikolic: I’m the elected president of the republic. I have a
government to control. I have a parliament which I appreciate and
respect deeply. I have the Constitutional Court, I should appreciate
and respect that and, if everything goes well and there are respected
lawyers in it and the professors from the Law School, we will have a
constitutional court we can respect. And then the Serbian Government
will conduct an economic policy – I assume G17 Plus won’t be part of
it, they’ll resign the day I win – and it will have to think about the
West and the East. It won’t be a problem.
B92: But what will you be thinking about?
Nikolic: I’ll be thinking about how the people live.
B92: Wait a minute, as president of the republic?
Nikolic: As president of the republic I have to think about how the
people are living.
B92: You’re supposed to represent the state.
Nikolic: And then I call up the government and ask them: have you done
anything in the West, have you secured investments, have you secured
the right technology, have you made it possible for our businessmen…
B92: And they say it’s problematic because you’re the president of the
republic.
Nikolic: They say it’s difficult because I’m not allowing mobsters to
run the state, it’s difficult because I insist so much on democracy,
it’s difficult because I insist on human rights, it’s difficult because
I insist on us observing the Constitution and the laws.
B92: All right, but how will you represent Serbia in the West as
president?
Nikolic: My only sin against Serbia would be if I don’t warn the
government about the rise of crime: people who sell drugs to kids;
people who buy our natural resources or factories for a pittance;
people who were paying politicians while they were in opposition and
who now have to return the favour.
B92: You haven’t told me about the West. Or would you rather talk
about the East?
Nikolic: No, I want to talk about the West. My door will be open.
I’ll respond to every invitation from the West. If someone wants to
talk to me I’ll talk with them. I’ll tell them the views I’m telling
you right now. I really can’t believe that the West wants Serbia to be
the way it is at the moment. Serbia in the past four years is Serbia
the way the West wants it! I want with all my heart to believe that
the West wishes us better things than that. I want the West to
convince us of that, not to praise a government under which a million
people lost their jobs, not to praise a government under which not a
single worker has gone into the factories. They’re all the same to me.
We’ve been without a constitutional court for a year and a half, now
we have a political court. We’ve had our prime minister assassinated,
we’ve had a state of emergency which introduced a dictatorship, we’ve
had voting fraud in the parliament, we’ve become a lot poorer and we’re
another nine years further away from Europe. Before 2000 they told us
we were ten years away from Europe. Four years have passed and we’re
now fifteen years away.
B92: Do you think if you are elected president it will bring us closer
to the West.
Nikolic: I don’t know.
B92: You don’t know?
Nikolic: It will depend on the West and the Republic of Serbia.
B92: As I said, there are certain messages.
Nikolic: I won’t make a single move to justify any kind of measure by
the West against Serbia. I’ve told the head of the EU monitoring
mission in Belgrade: “Say it openly: if Serbian citizens vote for
Tomislav Nikolic, we will bomb you, and then I’ll withdraw from
politics. Say it openly.”
B92: They won’t bomb us, but there is a certain kind of isolation they
could apply.
Nikolic: What will they say? “Let’s isolate the people of Serbia
because they voted for Tomislav Nikolic?” Come on! Those days are
behind us. Labus said in an interview today that there’ll be no
isolation and sanctions if Tomislav Nikolic wins.
B92: And on what are you basing your belief that there’ll be no
isolation?
Nikolic: On the fact that I will be elected by the people. On the
fact that I respect the Constitution and the law. On the fact that I
will help the government to work well and criticise it when it does
not. On the fact that I will stop laws which are unconstitutional and
put them into procedure immediately if they’re in accordance with the
Constitution. On the fact that I will fight for the rights of each
individual in Serbia, each and every one. What will the West have
against me then? Is the West against people like that? If it is, I
don’t want to be supported by the West. And if they support me with
views like these I have nothing to be ashamed of.
B92: All right, if we’ve exhausted the West, let’s talk about the East.
Nikolic: I think that the East is a much more unpleasant topic for you.
B92: No, there are no unpleasant topics for me.
Nikolic: I visited Moscow again for the first time in four or five
years and I saw what I sensed when I was initially for cooperation with
Russia. Russia has been through expansion, an economic boom. Russia
has a hundred billion dollars of foreign currency reserves and each
year a forty billion dollar surplus in foreign trade. There’s not a
single deputy in the Duma who is against cooperation with Serbia, not a
single one. In the Russian Duma, there’s not a single pro-Western
deputy, people have simply not voted for them. The Russian president
has offered a better life to his citizens. First, I told them
everything I don’t like about the Russian administration, not the
Russian people. I know about the ties between them and us, but I won’t
forget the vote for sanctions, the vote for the weapons import embargo,
that Chernomyrdin brought the plan, that Russia took part in drafting
Resolution 1244, that its battalion was the first to arrive in Pristina
– the Serbs were immensely delighted by that – and then moved to
Slatina Airport only to eventually return to Russia. They withdrew
from the Balkans because they didn’t count on us as strategic partners,
as having historical ties. And then, after I’d scheduled talks with
only one faction, all the rest called me and wanted to talk to me: the
foreign ministry, the president’s advisors…
B92: Did you meet Zhirinovsky?
Nikolic: No.
B92: Why not?
Nikolic: We’ve not been in contact for five years, even more. I don’t
count the time that DOS wasted, three or four years before that our
relations became cold. We haven’t been at each other’s congresses,
that cooperation has withered away. We have no concrete cooperation
any more: we have another political party to cooperate with in Russia.
When I arrived in Belgrade…
B92: That’s good. I apologise. Go on.
Nikolic: I have learnt that the prime minister will travel to Moscow
on June 3. I’m happy about that. He’ll find an open door there. He,
who hasn’t been to Moscow for five years, he whom Moscow…
B92: Do you think that we have a chance, economically speaking?
Nikolic: There’s no other way out.
B92: There’s no other way out. What can we do?
Nikolic: I’m going to tell you now.
B92: What can we offer to the East?
Nikolic: I’m going to tell you now. And what can we sell to the West?
That’s what hurts me the most: no one has the guts to say openly that
we don’t have any products for the West, not a single factory of ours
has products for the West; we’ve closed down our factories so that we
can sell Western products here and we even have to sell European sugar
on the Serbian market, we don’t have our own sugar any more. The
question is when the farmers will again be able to produce sugar. We
import it from Slovenia for four dinars and sell it for one. We import
it from Croatia for three dinars and export it for one. Don’t talk to
me about cooperation with the West any more. I want that cooperation.
I want new technology, I want the government to secure capital,
investments, good legislation, democracy, human rights, at the highest
possible level, but I know that Serbia cannot survive without factories.
B92: But can a factory work without loans and investments?
Nikolic: It can’t, all right, it can’t. But no one wanted to use the
convenience we created in 2000, in early 2000. I hear now that the
government has shown interest in it and even that several ministers
have travelled to Moscow to deal with this. We can sell almost eighty
per cent of our products in Russia without customs duties. Current
products, the ones we already have. Any company in the world can make
its products here and then transport them to Russia and they will be
cheaper than if they were made on ships in duty free zones. Why hasn’t
this opportunity been picked up in the past five years? Why have we
had to sink so low? Why have we had to become this poor? I don’t know
how much you travel around Serbia. I travel a lot these days. I meet
a lot of people, honourable, honest men and none of them are wealthy.
There are poor people living in Serbia today and I’m going to ask the
government some questions about them.
B92: Were you meeting those poor people when you were deputy prime
minister?
Nikolic: We had a lot of serious work in those days.
B92: It was a time when, it seems to me, all of us were poor.
Nikolic: Yes, but we were fighting terrorism then. We were defending
ourselves from NATO and we were rebuilding the country. Those were our
three tasks which we were engaged on for a year and a half and nothing
more could have been done.
B92: But you did manage to resolve your housing problems during that
period.
Nikolic: Yes. I did.
B92: And members of your party, too. Were you thinking about poor
people then?
Nikolic: What do you have against my solving housing problems?
B92: Did you buy an apartment of 187 square metres?
Nikolic: That’s not true. I live in a 90 square metre apartment.
B92: Because you had to sell the big one.
Nikolic: And why did I have to sell it?
B92: Why did you sell it?
Nikolic: Not to make money, but to pay the taxes invented by the state
on the apartment.
B92: Never mind, you had a place to live then.
Nikolic: And where was that?
B92: In a house in Kragujevac. Is that true?
Nikolic: But I live and work in Belgrade. My son lives with his wife
in my house in Kragujevac. This year I will have a grandchild.
B92: Do you think it’s all right for anyone who becomes a state
official to accept a large apartment and, when his term ends, not to
return it but to sell it off?
Nikolic: I didn’t accept the apartment to use it. I’ll move now to
the presidential residence. I’ll use it while I’m president of the
republic and then I’ll leave it to the new president. What’s this got
to do with the East?
B92: It was you who turned the topic back to the West, but as we were
speaking about poor people, I wanted to ask you whether you had thought
at all about all of us being very poor at the time.
Nikolic: I thought about it. But I had to live somewhere, a million
people in Serbia live in apartments.
B92: Yes, but they don’t have a house and an apartment of 187 square
metres.
Nikolic: You can’t count a house which is a hundred and fifty
kilometres away.
B92: I say you could have returned your apartment.
Nikolic: A house a hundred and fifty kilometres away has never been an
obstacle to getting an apartment in any company I have worked for.
B92: Yes, but…
Nikolic: I want to tell you all…
B92: Yes, you want to talk about everything. That’s why you’re here.
Nikolic: But I don’t know the question.
B92: Make yourself at home. Say it.
Nikolic: No, you do it, please.
B92: What questions did you expect?
Nikolic: The ones B92 would ask a Serbian Radical.
B92: And what questions are they?
Nikolic: You haven’t tackled The Hague yet.
B92: No.
Nikolic: Do you want to talk about bread?
B92: Bread?
Nikolic: Yes. Three dinars for a loaf of bread.
B92: We can talk about bread. Not about three dinars a loaf, but I’m
interested in the kind of economic system you have in mind, we can come
to that later.
Nikolic: What did you have in mind. Feel free to use your prepared
script.
B92: Prepared script?
Nikolic: Yes.
B92: I should have liked to talk a little more about the government.
Nikolic: I don’t believe I have intrigued you enough to ask more
questions. I think you’ve already asked them all.
B92: I want to talk about the honourable behaviour of the Serbian
Radicals when they are in government. How they find themselves
apartments.
Nikolic: Have you revealed anything new to the Serbian citizens. Have
I been secretive about this?
B92: I’d like you to comment on your behaviour in Zemun.
Nikolic: I want to get this over with. Do you think it would be
better if I took a hundred or two hundred thousand Deutschmarks from
the Mob and bought myself an apartment so that no one could bother me
about it?
B92: What kind of comparison is that? I don’t know what you mean.
Nikolic: It’s a powerful comparison. Everyone in DOS was doing it and
you’ve never asked them about it.
B92: It’s not true that we didn’t, but tonight you’re the guest here
and because you claim that the Serbian Radicals have nothing to do with
crime…
Nikolic: Tell me about Zemun. What’s wrong with Zemun?
B92: There are a lot of things wrong. I have a pile of documents
here. I’ll give them to you, although you already have them.
Nikolic: What you can give me isn’t important. Let’s see what we can
do while we’re on the air.
B92: We’ve obtained court records on some of this material. There’s
an enormous amount of documentation on how the Radicals behaved between
1996 and 2000 in the municipality of Zemun. There’s a debt of
sixty-eight million dinars; the courts established that there was a
series of abuses related to business premises in Zemun, and; according
to the financial police the Radicals received at least a million and a
half euros in campaign funding and gifts.
Nikolic: You see, there’s only one…
B92: All right, we can go through them one by one now…
Nikolic: There’s only one court case and only one man in question.
There is only one indictment against one man from the Serbian Radical
Party and you’re talking about an ongoing case. Nothing has been
proved, whether we’re guilty or not, but you say it’s fact because you
received it from the Zemun Municipality.
B92: I’m asking you, do you want to talk about these one by one?
Nikolic: Please do ask me. But I have to tell your viewers that not a
single Radical is in prison, not a single one has been convicted, and
we lost power in Zemun five years ago. Last year we had a landslide in
both the presidential and the parliamentary elections in Zemun. In the
parliamentary elections, in Zemun we had more votes than all our
opponents put together. That’s the attitude of the citizens of Zemun
to our tenure. All right, now tell me what the attitude of the
outgoing authorities is to our tenure in Zemun.
B92: But the people of Zemun probably don’t know, for example, that
they could have had two million dinars per month more if you had not
been leasing the Magistrate Building, more than two thousand square
metres, for 1.57 dinars per square metre. Is that honourable behaviour?
Nikolic: Yes, it is.
B92: It is?
Nikolic: Yes. All parliamentary parties in Belgrade lease offices for
prices like that. We’re not a profit-making organisation: we’re paid
by the state. Why don’t you ask in which parts of town and in what
kind of buildings other parties have their offices.
B92: I’ll ask them when they’re here. Now I’m asking you.
Nikolic: But that’s the law. Those are the regulations. It’s a city
decree. We weren’t in power in the city, we went to Zemun. Everyone
else was in central Belgrade in huge offices, don’t we have the right
to do that? What are we? Aliens?” Under what conditions do we have a
long term lease?
B92: Shall we move on?
Nikolic: We have a long term lease in accordance with the law. We
have a long term lease contract, there’s nothing questionable about
that, it’s fully in line with the law. The price is not questionable
at all.
B92: I’m asking you whether it’s honourable behaviour: you say it is.
All right, you’ve answered my question, may we move on?
Nikolic: But please, listen to me. Thirty political parties in
Belgrade have offices like that. It’s an honourable thing for
political parties to have a place where they work.
B92: All right. Is it honourable, then, for Dragan Todorovic to
lease, on October 3, 2000, a thousand square metres of land in Zemun
for a dinar per square metre for thirty years?
Nikolic: Let me ask you something now. As Dragan Todorovic has sued
everyone who said this, are you reporting someone else’s words or will
he be able to sue you because these are your words?
B92: Here. I can give you the documents.
Nikolic: Let me ask you: according to the law are you not responsible
if you report someone else’s information? Is this your information?
Are these your words?
B92: This is a report from the Zemun Municipality from a meeting held
on October 2. A dinar per square metre per month.
Nikolic: It’s not true.
B92: One day later they changed it to a dinar per square metre per
year. For thirty years.
Nikolic: It’s not true. They’re lying.
B92: They’re lying? This is a forgery?
Nikolic: It’s not true. There are court proceedings under way.
B92: Okay, it’s a forgery then.
Nikolic: There’s a trial under way and Dragan Todorovic has sued all
of them.
B92: All right. We have Gordana Pop Lazic, then. Very similar thing.
There’s a contract, she also got some land.
Nikolic: I don’t know about her. Where did she get the land?
B92: She also got land.
Nikolic: Where did she get land.
B92: In Zemun, also. Land to build a private house. She and her
father, Andrija Milic of Barajevo, signed the contract jointly.
Nikolic: Please don’t do this.
B92: I’ll give you the document. Do you want something that concerns
you?
Nikolic: Yes.
B92: Let’s see something that concerns you. We have another
interesting matter here, financing of the Serbian Radical Party from
the municipal budget and the budget of the public community works. The
money was transferred from the municipality to your party’s account.
Nikolic: How?
B92: Do you see this? The local Zemun paper, you must remember this.
Nikolic: Yes.
B92: Five hundred thousand copies were printed. And five hundred
thousand Deutschmarks were transferred to make this.
Nikolic: Are you sure it was five hundred thousand Deutschmarks?
B92: Five hundred thousand Deutschmarks. In dinars it was two point
one million dinars. It’s all here.
Nikolic: Why has it been converted into Marks?
B92: So that…
Nikolic: So that one copy cost one Mark.
B92: Who needs half a million copies of the Zemun paper? How many
people live in Zemun?
Nikolic: Where does it say five hundred thousand copies were printed?
B92: Here, take a look.
Nikolic: Does it say so in the paper?
B92: It does.
Nikolic: What does it say?
B92: It says…
Nikolic: Circulation.
B92: Circulation. Circulation. Five hundred thousand.
Nikolic: Copies.
B92: Yes. Take a look if you don’t believe me. Read it for yourself.
Nikolic: That’s the Zemun paper?
B92: Yes. The Zemun paper.
Nikolic: Do you have anything else?
B92: I have loads of things, but I still haven’t had a single answer
from you.
Nikolic: You don’t have anything.
B92: I haven’t had a single answer. I have a heap of material. An
enormous number of facts.
Nikolic: I knew this program would be like this.
B92: An enormous number of facts. I can read them out to you.
Nikolic: Don’t read someone else’s facts to me.
B92: These are not someone else’s facts.
Nikolic: Why didn’t you approach me with these before this program?
B92: The Serbian Public Revenue Bureau. A report. Listen to this.
Nikolic: I can’t respond to lies.
B92: These aren’t lies. This is an audit report.
Nikolic: Lies.
B92: This is a report on the audit of business dealings by the Zemun
Corporate Business System between January 1, 1997, and December 31,
2000. The register has been extracted to Tomislav Nikolic. That means
you have this too.
Nikolic: I have never worked in the Zemun Computer Business System.
B92: Excuse me?
Nikolic: I have never worked in the Zemun Computer Business System.
B92: This is public information. I’ve just told you it was the
Serbian Public Revenue Bureau.
Nikolic: I’m telling you something.
B92: All right.
Nikolic: Let me ask you one thing.
B92: Please do.
Nikolic: If you’re a good journalist, why didn’t you ask me to prepare
my answers in advance?
B92: This isn’t the first time these allegations have been made. I’ve
only asked you to comment on them.
Nikolic: These lies have never before been gathered in a heap like
this.
B92: Whether they are lies in a heap or not, I’m presenting them to
you for comment.
Nikolic: They’re piled up, these lies. Why didn’t you tell me? I
thought we were going to talk about the future of Serbia.
B92: We’ll talk about it now. You provoked me…
Nikolic: We won’t.
B92: … by talking about people being poor.
Nikolic: I haven’t provoked you at all.
B92: You’ve been talking about the poor people you meet in the city
squares so I needed to remind you of your honourable behaviour in the
past.
Nikolic: Why are you working so hard to prove the kind of television
this is?
B92: What kind of television is that?
Nikolic: Why am I a thorn in your side?
B92: Why are you a thorn in your side?
Nikolic: I’m a candidate for the president of the republic.
B92: That’s why you’re here tonight. To present yourself.
Nikolic: Yes, that’s why I’m here. Why didn’t you tell me you would
talk about Zemun so that I could bring the documentation?
B92: I have given you documentation which is public knowledge.
Nikolic: What have you given me?
B92: The documentation.
Nikolic: Can’t you see we’re sitting five metres apart?
B92: You have not answered a single question for me, but let’s forget
about that.
Nikolic: What can I tell you about stories about us launched by you,
Blic and some other news agencies.
B92: These are not stories. These are documents, as you can see.
Nikolic: They are stories. But why are we talking about them tonight?
Have I come here…
B92: You don’t want to talk any more?
Nikolic: Have I come here as a candidate for the presidency of the
republic?
B92: Yes. Yes, you have.
Nikolic: Then why don’t you talk to me in a way appropriate to that?
B92: I have, and you said “I will help the people to live better”.
Nikolic: But you’re doing it without motivation.
B92: I am saying…
Nikolic: But you’re doing this without motivation.
B92: No, I’m only saying…
Nikolic: I can see it in your eyes.
B92: I can take you at your word, but I have to judge you on your past
deeds.
Nikolic: Are you trying to justify something tonight?
B92: Absolutely not.
Nikolic: Are you trying to justify something tonight, some money,
perhaps?
B92: I have not had an answer to these questions. Money? We have no
reason…
Nikolic: You have no money?
B92: B92 has no reason to seek justifications of that kind. Let’s
take a commercial break now.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
B92: Our guest tonight is the Serbian Radical Party’s presidential
candidate, Tomislav Nikolic, who is still in the studio with us. Our
viewers have sent a lot of questions for you tonight, and I’ll ask some
of them myself. I’ll read as many as we have time for later, but a lot
of them are from people who have come from Croatia. They’re asking if
you will stick to your position that if you become president of Serbia
you will break all diplomatic communication with Croatia.
Nikolic: Unfortunately, that’s not in my jurisdiction, but I have one
clear message for Croatia. The authorities which call themselves
democratic will become democratic for me the very moment they allow
Serbs to return, and that’s all I have to say about Croatia. I would
remind them of the genocide they committed, I’m not reminding them that
there’s not a single Serb left in the whole territory of Croatia, that
many people are changing their religion, that children are changing
their names. I would remind them that they have to do a great deal in
order to gain the trust of Serbia, enough trust for us to have
diplomatic relations with Croatia. I’m only reminding them that
they’ve expelled people and not allowed them to return while, at the
same time, they want trade and other relations with us. We’re rather
hypocritical when we want to cooperate with Croatia: we take special
care of our refugees, offer them attention and kindness, but we are
unwilling to resolve their problems.
B92: And will you be helping Serbs to return to Croatia with this
attitude?
Nikolic: But I’m presenting my point clearly and cleanly. So far no
one has helped them to return, not with a different view, the complete
humiliation of Serbia and humiliation of them. You know, when you
visit them at the top of a mountain, in a ruined building, where
children and the elderly and the middle-aged all live together, then
you start thinking differently about them.
B92: Is there any other neighbouring country you would not go to?
Nikolic: I have nothing to do in Slovenia. I have nothing to do in
Croatia. Why should I go there?
B92: There are constitutional jurisdictions. This is also laid out in
your presidential platform: the Serbian president is the head of state
and represents…
Nikolic: Yes, he conducts diplomatic relations on all levels, of
course, but I think that the level of diplomatic support Serbia needs
right now for Kosovo and many other issues is not the level of Slovenia
and Croatia. It has to be done with the big players.
B92: As you’ve mentioned Kosovo, how do think Albanian extremists
would react to you winning the presidential election?
Nikolic: Who knows what goes on in the heads of extremists or how they
would react?
B92: And Albanians in general? How would they react?
Nikolic: I don’t understand the question. I’ve taken part…
B92: Would it suit their efforts for Kosovo’s independence?
Nikolic: How could my winning help them with that?
B92: You’re not electing yourself.
Nikolic: And is it any better the way it is? At the moment they’re
certainly prevented from winning independence. The state of Serbia and
the West are right now stopping them in their attempts to win
independence. Come on, I said it clearly and openly in Strasbourg.
First Harri Holkeri was speaking and everyone applauded. Then I said
“Why are you all applauding? This man here supports killers, people
who burn down churches and houses. He gave them a foreign ministry,
he’s giving them elections on October 23, which he says they will
conduct themselves. Why are you applauding?” Do you think that Serbia
hasn’t managed to persuade Albanians in the past five years that they
won’t have their own state? I think that they’ve rather convinced them
that they will have their own state. We should start working from
scratch. Draft a platform for a political solution to the Kosovo
crisis. The whole parliament has been active in this, I’m not standing
out as an individual on this matter: this is what all the people of
Serbia want. Kosovo must be part of Serbia, whether anyone is happy
about it or not, whether someone is disgruntled about it or not. It’s
defined in Resolution 1244. I didn’t write it, I was unhappy with it,
but now it’s our last hope. For five years the United Nations has
refused to meet the conditions of the resolution while we did whatever
they wanted. Every high representative revises the resolution every
day. We’ve come to the position that a new one should be written just
to cover what they’ve done so far.
B92: And what can you do to improve this situation? Increase
diplomatic activity?
Nikolic: Of course. We have to find our own protector out in the
world. I don’t know what our diplomats are doing, apart from closing
deal for businessmen in the countries they’re posted to, for a
commission, besides discrediting our country and telling everyone we
committed genocide. I don’t know what else our Foreign Ministry has
been doing.
B92: We’re back to my earlier question. To what extent are you able
to represent us, because a lot of doors around the world will probably
remain closed to you?
Nikolic: I probably wouldn’t be able to represent you, but I’ll
certainly be able to represent the majority of Serbian citizens.
B92: And why not me? You said all citizens.
Nikolic: I see you have different political views and, whatever I do,
I won’t please you. I’m really prepared to do everything for every
Serbian citizens, but something bothers certain individuals. Is it the
word “Radical”? I don’t know what it is. But we, who had three
hundred thousand votes in 2000, will now have a million and five
hundred thousand votes. That means we’ve probably been doing something
right in the past four years.
B92: All right. I’d like us to see a little history of the Serbian
Radical Party over the past few years, and then we’ll talk about it.
RECORDED SEQUENCE:
Presenter: The Serbian Radical Party was founded as an opposition
party, but the first decade of pluralist politics in Serbia showed that
it had more fruitful cooperation with the parties in power, such as the
Socialist Party of Serbia and the Yugoslav Left. While close to other
opposition parties for a brief period in 1993, by calling for the
ousting of the Socialist Government, the Radicals brought about early
parliamentary elections in Serbia, but did not take part in any mass
protest against Slobodan Milosevic before or since. They joined the
government with the Socialists and the Yugoslav Left in 1998, only to
be ousted along with them in 2000. They were the only party in the
governing coalition to acknowledge the victory of the democratic
opposition before the popular uprising on October 5, that year. In
2002, Slobodan Milosevic, from The Hague, gave his support in the
presidential elections to his “favourite opposition politician”,
referring to Radical leader Vojislav Seselj in the same way he had
during the nineties.
In the federal and republic parliaments, the Radicals have introduced
such techniques as destroying microphones, throwing water in their
opponents’ faces, punch-ups and other forms of obstructing the work of
the parliament.
Outside the parliament, students, taxi drivers, pensioners and some
lawyers have felt the wrath of the Radicals on their own skin. Their
opponents accuse them of using their period of power in the
Municipality of Zemun for financial machination, usurpation of
apartments, land and the Magistrate Building.
The Radicals respond by saying that these claims have not been proved
in court. The Serbian Radical Party lays great emphasis on patriotism
and the fact that they took part in the wars across the former
Yugoslavia. Vojislav Seselj refuses to give up his vision of Greater
Serbia, even in his prison cell in The Hague.
Seselj: Karlobag-Ogulin-Karlovac-Vitrovitica must be our option and
that’s the border line along which our army must deploy all our troops.
If it’s not capable of withdrawing troops from Zagreb without a fight,
it should withdraw them in a combat operation while Zagreb is being
bombed. That official operation was planned in Belgrade. It included
Bosnian Serb forces, many of them, but the majority of the special
forces came from this side, special police units, the so-called Red
Berets, special units of State Security and volunteers from the Serbian
Radical Party.
If NATO begins bombing us, if the US aggression ensues, we Serbs will
die in great numbers, but there won’t be a single Albanian left in
Kosovo.
Presenter: The Serbian Radical Party is the only political to have
been boycotted for period by the majority of independent media in
Serbia after threats and unfounded allegations that journalists were
accessories to the murder of Defence Minister Pavle Bulatovic. Even
today the Radicals don’t hesitate to say that they don’t regret the
death of publisher Slavko Curuvija, killed in central Belgrade at
Easter, 1999.
Seselj: The gloves are off. Everything has become crystal clear. He
who lives by the sword shall die by the sword, you need to keep that in
mind. You surely don’t think we will let you kill us off, one by one,
like rabbits, while we caress you and cherish you like potted plants.
Keep that in mind. You from B92 and the other traitor outlets. You
want to kill off statesmen like rabbits and keep yourselves safe at the
same time. Well, you’re mistaken. You’re very, very mistaken. No
more kid gloves. Anyone who works for the Americans will have to
suffer the consequences.
Interviewer: Would you take back the sentence “I don’t regret that
Slavko Curuvija was murdered”?
Tomislav Nikolic: No.
Interviewer: You wouldn’t take back the sentence. You still stand
behind it. You would repeat it again.
Tomislav Nikolic: What about it?
Interviewer: Nothing, I’m just asking. It’s just that I’m a little
bit disgusted.
Tomislav Nikolic: The fact that you’re disgusted doesn’t mean it’s not
nice.
STUDIO
B92: Mr Nikolic, how do you comment on this today?
Nikolic: I don’t know what.
B92: Everything you have just heard. Is there anything in this story
we’ve just heard that you would renounce today?
Nikolic: No.
B92: No? That’s it?
Nikolic: You tell me what.
B92: For example, what about the list of journalists which Mr Seselj
read out. He said on a number of occasions that he was only adding to
the list. Did he leave it to you as a legacy?
Nikolic: It is a list of journalists we don’t want to cooperate with.
B92: So the list still exists? You haven’t torn it up and thrown
away? You still stick to it?
Nikolic: I’m offering you tonight an opportunity to show Serbia that
you are at least to a small extent a good television, because for you
the Radical Party doesn’t exist. This is a goodwill gesture from me
because I want to cooperate with everyone, even with you who wish us
nothing but ill.
B92: You’ve changed your rhetoric: you no longer issue death threats,
nor do you threaten the people That’s why you’re here tonight. And,
among other things, because you’re a presidential candidate.
Nikolic: That’s not true.
B92: That’s the way it is.
Nikolic: And tonight of all nights, five years after we changed our
rhetoric. Come on!
B92: We have three or four minutes left. So you wouldn’t take back
anything of what we’ve shown here.
Nikolic: I don’t know what you mean. What exactly do you want to ask
me? What is wrong there?
B92: I’ve asked you about the lists.
Nikolic: You say our political opponents say we were thieves. The
Radicals say the truth will be proved in court. Is that journalism?
B92: We’ve heard many opinions from Mr Seselj. You say you still
stand behind them. I was only interested in that.
Nikolic: I knew you were only interested in that.
B92: Let’s go to some of the questions from our viewers. As
president, will you pardon the former head of state television,
Dragoljub Milanovic?
Nikolic: First I would have to look into the case, but I’m not afraid
to pardon him if something is not right. I won’t pardon notorious
criminals, the ones who sell drugs to kids, rapists, people sentenced
by politics to long prison sentences. I’ll look into the case in
detail. Or do you perhaps think Dragoljub Milanovic is guilty? Or may
he have been a scapegoat? In that case thousands of people should be
in prison, because NATO told us we were collateral damage, everything
they hit was a legitimate target. They were hitting hospitals. So all
the heads of hospitals should be in prison. You’ve set your sights on
Dragoljub Milanovic, he’s the embodiment of evil for you. He ran a
really bad television station but, believe me, it may not have been
half as bad as yours.
B92: As ours?
Nikolic: Yes.
B92: All right.
Nikolic: He supported Slobodan Milosevic and the Yugoslav Left a lot
less than you support these others.
B92: I shan’t comment on that, we don’t have time. Next question: why
is Tomislav Nikolic afraid of a television debate with Boris Tadic.
Nikolic: It’s not that I’m afraid. If he gets through to the second
round we’ll have that television debate. All fourteen candidates can
seek a television debate with me, first they have to decide who
deserves to be in a television debate with me. Why Boris Tadic? What
reason is there for me to accept a debate with Boris Tadic.
B92: You don’t trust the opinion polls?
Nikolic: When did I ever trust the opinion polls? When did you?
B92: Then how do you know that you will win? How many did you say? A
million and a half votes?
Nikolic: I’m out there, from morning to evening, every day.
B92: So you count?
Nikolic: Look at the rallies. You avoided showing Kragujevac…
B92: How many people were there in Kragujevac?
Nikolic: … masses of people.
B92: How many people were there in Kragujevac?
Nikolic: All the others put together wouldn’t have that many…
B92: Tell us, how many were there?
Nikolic: I don’t know, I don’t count.
B92: Well, you must have some kind of estimate. You know how it is at
the rallies.
Nikolic: The only bigger rally we had in Kragujevac was in 1992, and
never after that. But how many people was that?
B92: Approximately? A thousand? Ten thousand?
Nikolic: I think it was ten thousand.
B92: Ten thousand?
Nikolic: Okay, someone else can say five hundred, but when you
consider the size of the square, and if people are standing close
together three of them fit into a square metre. The journalists who
was with us yesterday could have measured the square and say not more
than a thousand. That’s ten thousand, but also fifty thousand.
B92: When you say more than a thousand, that’s not ten thousand, not
even close.
Nikolic: How many is over a thousand, tell me so that I know in the
future?
B92: Okay. Now, to finish, let me ask you a question. Do you watch
Mile vs. Transition?
Nikolic: Not since he announced he was a member of the Democratic
Party. Up to then I liked the show.
B92: Do you identify yourself at all with that character?
Nikolic: Well, no. I appreciate art expressed in any way, but I don’t
like political campaigns on television which are aimed at drawing us
into a particular policy through a likeable actor. I don’t like it and
I steer clear of it.
B92: All right, and let me ask you, if you go through to the second
round of the election, and you probably will, all the opinion polls say
you will, will you come to this studio with your opponent?
Nikolic: Let me tell you something. I don’t think we will have
debates every day. I think we should have the debate on a much more
serious television station than yours.
B92: Such as?
Nikolic: Any other, really, your television is not in that league.
B92: Yes, it is the least serious of all.
Nikolic: Well, it’s not among the least serious ones. I go to
television stations which are watched only in, for example, Blace, but
trust me, don’t underestimate them. There are a lot more serious
people in small television stations than in the so-called big ones.
B92: All right, before we wrap this up, tell us what kind of
television station we are.
Nikolic: Usually very bad, partial and biased, and that’s standing in
your way. Take a look at the number of people who watch you. I’ll
come whenever you invite me. I won’t run away from it, but change the
direction a little. Or maybe you can’t, because you wouldn’t be
getting any money then.
B92: I hope our viewers have gained a little more insight into what
the Serbian Radical Party is today, and whether you are the former
Tomislav Nikolic or the only you would like to present yourself as
today.
Nikolic: You haven’t devoted this show to presenting me as a
presidential candidate, but I won’t hold that against you.
B92: Thank you very much for being our guest tonight. Good night.
